Petzl Ange Biner FAILURE!!

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Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jul 29, 2015 - 11:31am PT

Having used Titons on routes substantially harder than 5.6 I've always been puzzled by the
logic of super light crabs. Unless yer doing alpinism the weight savings vs crabs with real
gates is maybe 8 ounces on a full rack?

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jul 29, 2015 - 11:31am PT

Very interesting. I've used the Petzl Ange draws since they were introduced; both the small ones, and now my favs are the Ange S on the clipping end, the Ange L at the rope end. Just did some testing in my garage using these and some other draws, including wire and non-wire gates. It is possible to get this to happen with every single quickdraw that I tested...but there is a huge difference in how easy it is to get it to occur. By far the easiest was...you guessed it...the Ange L with the skinny Finesse sling (the fatter the sling, the harder it seems to get this to happen on all carabiners tested). Weirdly enough, it's extremely difficult to get this to occur with the Ange S carabiner...which makes me glad I'm using these on the clipping end of the draw. So I see this as a tiny risk with all carabiners, the only one that actually concerns me is the Ange L. Yes, a String on each end of the draw would prevent this from happening...but there is a reason all draws don't come this way. Many times climbing you want to be able to spin the top carabiner around, or even remove it completely from the draw. I suppose if all you ever did was sport climb it might make sense...

Ironically we were just discussing a few days ago how much we adore my draws...they have become quite popular. I'm not changing.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jul 29, 2015 - 11:35am PT

Reilly, there are plenty of carabiners that weigh an ounce or more than say the new Nano 22s. A rack of 12 draws, triple cams, and a few extra carabiners is closer to a 4 pound wight difference...so yes, it does matter.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 29, 2015 - 11:58am PT

As a long time Petzl Spirit user I've been testing out eight draws made from the Petzl Ange S biners for about a year now. But - I didn't like the Petzl Ange dogbones as too stiff and short and so swapped them out for longer Metolius ones and I've been relatively happy with the resulting hybrids.

The shorter, stiffer Petzl Ange dogbones - should they ride up on the gate - would be far more prone to hanging up there for this scenario than the slightly longer and much looser Metolius ones. While I wouldn't discount the concern, I'm pretty fastidious about managing draw / rope / rock interactions with a real emphasis on appropriate slinging and not using short, fixed-bone draws where an extended trad draw is a better call.

That all said, and past a certain point, the push for lighter / faster is never without certain material, design and performance trade-offs. Skinny Mammut slings being a good example of a fabulous lighter / faster product, but with a year-by-year declining load performance (I had some of mine pull tested every year for four years - by the fourth year some were breaking at 6-8kn). The implicit message is clear: buy such products for their advantages, but understand their limitations and disadvantages and work within the envelope of those constraints.

jsj

climber

Jul 29, 2015 - 12:30pm PT

I'm following this thread with great interest as I have over a dozen ANGE draws. Short draws with the L version of the 'biner on both ends (making my draw the most vulnerable configuration).

I just got off the phone with PETZL and their representative said that even though they could reproduce this failure that they are pretty confident that the chances of it actually happening in the field are extremely low.

Of course it did happen, though they said this is the first failure of its type ever reported. They are conducting further testing and monitoring the issue but don't feel it's necessary to address the issue more than that at this time.

Not sure how I feel... There are some real advantages to the ANGE design that I'll have to weigh against this newly discovered issue. For what its worth, the rep said he'll continue to climb on his ANGE 'biners with confidence.

Incidentally they discourage putting a string (or rubber band) on the gear/bolt end carabiner of any quickdraw as doing so introduces much more serious problems.

Hummerchine

Trad climber

East Wenatchee, WA

Jul 29, 2015 - 01:29pm PT

What exactly are the much more serious problems?

jsj

climber

Jul 29, 2015 - 01:49pm PT

He mentioned loading the nose of a carabiner can happen much more easily if it's fixed in position. I would speculate that the draw unclipping from the bolt would be much easier as well. But we didn't get into the details... he just said he advised against it.

couchmaster

climber

Jul 29, 2015 - 01:58pm PT

Man, you speak some truth and folks get all cranky at ya WL. No worries from this (getting) old(er) person. I'd still tie in with ya. And you get the lead of course. LOL

.......What's a microwave BTW?

On a serious side, I know some folks who own these biners and this will bear close watching.

crunch

Social climber

Jul 29, 2015 - 02:01pm PT

I have about 40 Ange biners, all of them the short ones. Been using them over a year, love 'em, they are pretty much full strength, and the weight saved really adds up.

I can reproduce this problem if I try, I see how it works, but I've never encountered it in the field. But, I'm usually pretty meticulous: hang my quick draws so that if I'm angling left above a bolt that the carabiner backs are facing left, exactly so as to prevent the sling riding up onto the gate, pay attention that the draw is hanging freely and the rope running smoothly before moving upward.

There's always trade-offs. Before I bought these (to replace a stolen rack), I had mostly Neutrinos. I was happy with these until I stated noticing that some older ones were losing the gate springiness, they would not quite close unless the gate was deliberately pushed into the notch: a seriously unsafe situation. With wire gates this is less visible than with solid gates.

And solid gates are heavier and suffer from worse gate flutter, etc. Can't win....

Thanks for the heads up!

jsj

climber

Jul 29, 2015 - 02:08pm PT

Crunch, I still have Neutrinos on every one of my cams and on my slings. I love them. But what you found to happen with the gates is one of two reasons I chose the ANGE for a new set of light draws.

Specifically, the spring of the gate on most wire gates is the gate itself - bent into a U-shape. When PETZL designed the ANGE, they gave it a separate spring and claim that it will far outlast any other wire gate on the market.

The other major reason I chose the ANGE is that is has an incredibly narrow profile and can be threaded into a buried piton or crowded bolt hanger with ease.

The drawbacks I've found is that the little "ball" at the end of the gate makes it slightly more difficult to clip, they are expensive, and now this possible mode of failure. However, I speculate that being "meticulous" about which direction you clip your draws would drastically reduce this already unlikely scenario. Still, I wish the images in that video and of the broken 'biner didn't bug me so much.

Lamalain

Sport climber

Montreal

Jul 29, 2015 - 03:17pm PT

This is certainly scary. I checked and this could actually happen with other types of carabiners. Before you throw-out all your Angels out the window (which I was ready to do...), you might consider this simple fix: put a rubberband at the base of the sling, as shown below.
Hope this was useful :)

Alpamayo

Trad climber

Davis, CA

Jul 29, 2015 - 03:27pm PT

Bottom/rope side biner? Bueno. Top/bolt side biner? No Bueno.

Alpamayo

Trad climber

Davis, CA

Jul 29, 2015 - 03:35pm PT

Why would y'all care about light draws for sport climbing? Don't you know you're supposed to get someone else to hang the draws for you!?

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Jul 29, 2015 - 06:30pm PT

I'll just save my Ange's for my non-dimpled Aliens... :)

gavinsmith

Trad climber

Toronto

Jul 29, 2015 - 07:11pm PT

FWIW, I cannot replicate this with an Ange S and Ange L at either end of a shoulder length BD dyneema sling (my normal alpine draws). There isn't enough stiffness in a sling to come anywhere close to causing this. It's definitely specific to the dogbone and biner setup as far as I can tell. I have a Finesse dogbone lying around somewhere, but haven't tried it yet.

DeepGlue

Trad climber

Boulder, CO

Jul 29, 2015 - 09:56pm PT

I had a very similar failure with a Wild Country Helium. Not sure exactly what happened, but the gate ended up outside the nose. I can totally believe it's more likely with Ange biners, but it can definitely happen with other biners too.

Juan Maderita

Trad climber

"OBcean" San Diego, CA

Jul 30, 2015 - 01:53am PT

I sent an e-mail to the UIAA to notify them of the safety concerns. The link to this thread was included in my e-mail. I asked the UIAA to inform me if it has been reported and if the Petzl "Ange" is being investigated. If the UIAA responds, I will post that info here.

Juan Maderita

Trad climber

"OBcean" San Diego, CA

Jul 30, 2015 - 10:10am PT

The UIAA Office Coordinator & Safety Label Administrator in Switzerland replied within minutes! She reported it to the Safety Commission of the UIAA and has asked for a response from Petzl. She intends to get back to me with a follow up.