Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 92 of total 92 in this topic |
richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 28, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
|
Recently I took a small fall onto a Large Ange Petzl carabiner and it failed spectacularly on me. The gate bent completely sideways and luckily I was backed up. I contacted Petzl and they were able to recreate the failure at 1 1/2 Kn. This occurs when the sling sits at the base of the gate at a slight angle as shown in the video. A solution was not offered, only an explanation that this could occur with any carabiner. I have never seen this occur before in my 15 years of climbing and I was unable to recreate the event with any of my other carabiners, which so easily seems to occur with the petzl ange (scary!). I have discontinued use of these quickdraws and would like to warn others of the potential dangers of using this carabiner.
|
|
richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 04:17pm PT
|
|
|
Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
|
Not good..
Wish they still made the original Spirit..
:(
Glad you are ok!!!
|
|
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:24pm PT
|
First of all, I'm glad you are OK.
But could you clarify the cirsumstances as best you can again. Do you think your rope was rubbing against the gate causing it to vibrate open?
edit; I missed the last post of yours; the vid. Sh#t,
|
|
richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
|
here is the pic petzl sent me demonstrating how the sling can get caught on the gate
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
|
Jingus.
|
|
richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
|
basicly, it gets caught like that, you fall and the sling pulls the gate open, bends it sideways and comes off
|
|
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
|
Thanks for posting that up Richard.
|
|
Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
|
That's some scary sh!#. My buddy uses those draws all the time, I'll have to warn him about this,
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
|
It's just like your knee, not meant to go sideways but very strong along its intended axis. Those don't even look very durable. Just the fragile looks scare me away. Are they super light ?
Glad yer not gunna die....just yet.
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
|
I think that would happen with most wire gate biners if the draw or sling sideloads the gate. Your job is to rig your gear so that doesn't happen.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
|
I think that would happen with most wire gate biners if the draw or sling sideloads the gate. Your job is to rig your gear so that doesn't happen.
climbing gear ain't magic. You want the cool thin sh#t you gotta think around how it works, like girth hitching dyneema.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
|
Looks like Petzl needs to add a keeper to the top draw as well as the rope side draw. What a sh#t design.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
|
Haha, I think I almost just turned back to the Cosmic way:-) Was out aid climbing a bit ago on a longer stranger line and noticed that it's easy to jingus up a biner. Fella I was climbing with had the old school fat biners. I had the new light as a womans thong things. I have a crapload of the baby Camps that Chris likes, and a bunch of lightweight Wild Country helium and Nitros as well.
The baby Camps, just looking at a worn one while way up off the deck and your body weight is on it and it's laying strange on the rock: whew. Old and fat isn't just my body type any more, think I prefer the old school biners as I got a warm fuzzy given how much material there was. Unfortunately, I'd long ago sold almost every fat one I own. I have @ 10 on my Toprope only rack. I remember getting a buck each for my beater Eiger Ovals (think I paid $2.00 for them brand new), tried to dissuade my buddy Mike from buying them as they only tested 1800 lbs (closed) when new and they'd seen some pretty solid mileage, but he said "hey, I'm only using them for aid, doesn't matter". Haha.
Thanks for the heads up on the Petzl. I have a policy to not to be an early adopter and buy new Black Diamond and new Petzl items which this incident reinforces. If that had been a first draw on some of those super high first bolt Smith Routes, OMlord.....could have been ugly. Needs a o'ring/string on the upper end as well.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
|
Thank you for the warning, but I think it really is the same issue with any wire gate.
I have a bunch of wire gates and have been using them for years with no issue, but I only use them in a specific way. On quickdraws I use them on the rope end of the draw with a position keeper type draw so the biner can't move. I also have my whole rack racked on the ange for weight considerations but I clip a variety of types of quickdraws and slings to those when placed, under many circumstances.
It is a good warning though. Ovals are pretty bombproof but they are heavier and harder to clip on overhanging sport routes. That matters to some people.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
|
Thanks, Richard. I'm sticking with the Spirits.
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
|
Is it just me or is that one funky looking carabiner?
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 06:04pm PT
|
Never liked them from the first time i saw one at the local shop. Looked like junk to me.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
|
Doesn't look like a good design. The way the gate hinge has a huge bump in it and looks like it's begging for a sling to hang up on it.
Still, I can't stand the dental floss draws and slings. They seem to have a mind of their own and get themselves in trouble far more frequently than plain old 9/16" or the wider Spectra/Nylon blends. Doesn't matter what kind of carabiner they are on.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
|
I guess I'm an oddball. For sport climbs I like heavy duty, I'll go for the Spirits on the tough Petzl draws. For traditional climbs, where I'll be carrying a rack, draws and runners weight is a factor so I like the DMM keylock biners on the draws they made which are seven inches long. I just looked at one, there's no snag for the draw.
Is Petzl just starting to crank sh*t out without sufficient testing?
I sure am glad I bought a bucket load on Spirits - straight and bent gate, when I did.
|
|
jonnyrig
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
|
You're all ignoring that this kind of failure can occur with any carabiner, regardless of type or manufacturer, when the gate is side-loaded without being closed.
|
|
richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
|
This does NOT happen with other wire gate biners. The ange is prone to catching on the gate. Also the stiff sling which is sewn all the way makes it even more prone to catching on the gate.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
|
^^^^^^THAT^^^^^^ (pointing to richards post)
It's a sh#t design. Sure any gate can be cross loaded. The chances of it happening with that design are far greater than any other biner I've seen.
Ksolem
You're not the only one bro. Petzl spirits on petzl draws is what I sport climb with. There also what I have on my trad rack. I'll carry that extra 10oz thirty miles to use them in the alpine. I just take less food. lol
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
|
hey there say, richard... great post.. whew, glad you are okay... :)
|
|
jonnyrig
climber
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
|
Whatever. I was simply pointing out that none of the biners on today's market are designed to meet any kind of side load on the gate when it's open. That would be impractical, regardless of the design. And pointed out that you should not side load an open gate. Luckily, we rarely see it occur.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2582888/Failure-of-Locking-Carabiner-under-Body-Weight
Apparently the forum has its mind made up that this particular design is a piece of sh#t, so I won't bother you any further on the subject. Maybe the next discussion should be about how some biners are more prone to failure when nose-hooked than others? I'm sure there's an opinion out there on that, too. Everyone has their favorites I guess.
Have a nice evening.
|
|
Crump
Social climber
Lakewood, CO
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
|
Fat, that is the way I always love my clips!
Bonantti Ds, Ovals, "90s" era BD Ovals, ... Fat cause my fat ass was hanging on them.
For the weight savings of little sport biners... you would do just as well skipping your morning muffin... Fat biners rule.
If the four horses of doom are at your door, what do you want your ass hanging from?
Fat! Fat biners rule.
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
|
This is not an Ange failure. This is an operator's failure.
|
|
MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
|
My take on this is that the single wire creates constriction under load from the narrow dyneema webbing sewn closely. The double wires of your standard wire-gate naturally channel the impact onto the forged part of the carabiner without cross-loads, and without an obvious point of constriction.
A keeper ends this discussion.
|
|
Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 09:21pm PT
|
I agree with the diagnosis of operator error.
That gear was obviously designed to stand out on the rack at REI, not to be whipped on.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
|
Thanks for the heads up. I use these draws and love them. Climbed on spirits for years but after doing some long leads with a harness of these just loved the weightless feel on the belt.
Loading the gate... No good. I wonder if the low mass of the lower biner plus the thin bone let them ride up easier than old style draws.
First failure of this type I've heard of and these draws have been on the market for several years. Pretty low percentage... I know a 100lb woman who broke a spirit in a routine fall so those are no magic bullet.
You guys who can look at a biner and say "bad design" crack me up.
|
|
Bobert
Trad climber
boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 10:56pm PT
|
Thanks for the heads up. That is a pretty serious design flaw. The danger can be reduced by using a quick draw sling that has a larger, softer opening but I think it could still happen. If you have to use these draws maybe flip the biner over so the gate opening is down. Just one more thing to have to think about though. I don't use the Ainge but I've been out in my garage anyway yanking on slings to see if there is some weird way my biners could be accidentally cross loaded. So far no problems. edit: oops, don't do that. The whole thing unclips itself too easily.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Jul 28, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
|
Old school spirits are my fave quickdraws bar none! Durable, thousands of clicks and incredible quality.
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 10:24am PT
|
The design is fine. But if you are just going to clip draws and not take into account that you need to sling pieces and eliminate side pull, then there is a good chance you can cause gate failure on almost any wiregate biner as you contribute to the natural selection process.
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:04am PT
|
wow that is some shitty shit!
what kind of testing is being done before they populate climbers with faulty shitty sh#t..
|
|
d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:15am PT
|
It's not just the advice that you give(which has some merit),
but how you give it as well.
Blow harder
formerly
known
as.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:20am PT
|
I contacted Petzl and they were able to recreate the failure at 1 1/2 Kn. Shiver ....
I'm with MisterE, the bone needs a keeper.
|
|
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:22am PT
|
If you want to use titons to climb your 5.6, have at it.
I've used titons for motor boating, but never for climbing.
signed,
a future member of the old white guy club ;) (note; not an angry member)
edit; getting a little harder to seperate the wheat from the chaff here.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:31am PT
|
Having used Titons on routes substantially harder than 5.6 I've always been puzzled by the
logic of super light crabs. Unless yer doing alpinism the weight savings vs crabs with real
gates is maybe 8 ounces on a full rack?
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:31am PT
|
Very interesting. I've used the Petzl Ange draws since they were introduced; both the small ones, and now my favs are the Ange S on the clipping end, the Ange L at the rope end. Just did some testing in my garage using these and some other draws, including wire and non-wire gates. It is possible to get this to happen with every single quickdraw that I tested...but there is a huge difference in how easy it is to get it to occur. By far the easiest was...you guessed it...the Ange L with the skinny Finesse sling (the fatter the sling, the harder it seems to get this to happen on all carabiners tested). Weirdly enough, it's extremely difficult to get this to occur with the Ange S carabiner...which makes me glad I'm using these on the clipping end of the draw. So I see this as a tiny risk with all carabiners, the only one that actually concerns me is the Ange L. Yes, a String on each end of the draw would prevent this from happening...but there is a reason all draws don't come this way. Many times climbing you want to be able to spin the top carabiner around, or even remove it completely from the draw. I suppose if all you ever did was sport climb it might make sense...
Ironically we were just discussing a few days ago how much we adore my draws...they have become quite popular. I'm not changing.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:35am PT
|
Reilly, there are plenty of carabiners that weigh an ounce or more than say the new Nano 22s. A rack of 12 draws, triple cams, and a few extra carabiners is closer to a 4 pound wight difference...so yes, it does matter.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 11:58am PT
|
As a long time Petzl Spirit user I've been testing out eight draws made from the Petzl Ange S biners for about a year now. But - I didn't like the Petzl Ange dogbones as too stiff and short and so swapped them out for longer Metolius ones and I've been relatively happy with the resulting hybrids.
The shorter, stiffer Petzl Ange dogbones - should they ride up on the gate - would be far more prone to hanging up there for this scenario than the slightly longer and much looser Metolius ones. While I wouldn't discount the concern, I'm pretty fastidious about managing draw / rope / rock interactions with a real emphasis on appropriate slinging and not using short, fixed-bone draws where an extended trad draw is a better call.
That all said, and past a certain point, the push for lighter / faster is never without certain material, design and performance trade-offs. Skinny Mammut slings being a good example of a fabulous lighter / faster product, but with a year-by-year declining load performance (I had some of mine pull tested every year for four years - by the fourth year some were breaking at 6-8kn). The implicit message is clear: buy such products for their advantages, but understand their limitations and disadvantages and work within the envelope of those constraints.
|
|
jsj
climber
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
|
I'm following this thread with great interest as I have over a dozen ANGE draws. Short draws with the L version of the 'biner on both ends (making my draw the most vulnerable configuration).
I just got off the phone with PETZL and their representative said that even though they could reproduce this failure that they are pretty confident that the chances of it actually happening in the field are extremely low.
Of course it did happen, though they said this is the first failure of its type ever reported. They are conducting further testing and monitoring the issue but don't feel it's necessary to address the issue more than that at this time.
Not sure how I feel... There are some real advantages to the ANGE design that I'll have to weigh against this newly discovered issue. For what its worth, the rep said he'll continue to climb on his ANGE 'biners with confidence.
Incidentally they discourage putting a string (or rubber band) on the gear/bolt end carabiner of any quickdraw as doing so introduces much more serious problems.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
|
What exactly are the much more serious problems?
|
|
jsj
climber
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
|
He mentioned loading the nose of a carabiner can happen much more easily if it's fixed in position. I would speculate that the draw unclipping from the bolt would be much easier as well. But we didn't get into the details... he just said he advised against it.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
|
Man, you speak some truth and folks get all cranky at ya WL. No worries from this (getting) old(er) person. I'd still tie in with ya. And you get the lead of course. LOL
.......What's a microwave BTW?
On a serious side, I know some folks who own these biners and this will bear close watching.
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
|
I have about 40 Ange biners, all of them the short ones. Been using them over a year, love 'em, they are pretty much full strength, and the weight saved really adds up.
I can reproduce this problem if I try, I see how it works, but I've never encountered it in the field. But, I'm usually pretty meticulous: hang my quick draws so that if I'm angling left above a bolt that the carabiner backs are facing left, exactly so as to prevent the sling riding up onto the gate, pay attention that the draw is hanging freely and the rope running smoothly before moving upward.
There's always trade-offs. Before I bought these (to replace a stolen rack), I had mostly Neutrinos. I was happy with these until I stated noticing that some older ones were losing the gate springiness, they would not quite close unless the gate was deliberately pushed into the notch: a seriously unsafe situation. With wire gates this is less visible than with solid gates.
And solid gates are heavier and suffer from worse gate flutter, etc. Can't win....
Thanks for the heads up!
|
|
jsj
climber
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
|
Crunch, I still have Neutrinos on every one of my cams and on my slings. I love them. But what you found to happen with the gates is one of two reasons I chose the ANGE for a new set of light draws.
Specifically, the spring of the gate on most wire gates is the gate itself - bent into a U-shape. When PETZL designed the ANGE, they gave it a separate spring and claim that it will far outlast any other wire gate on the market.
The other major reason I chose the ANGE is that is has an incredibly narrow profile and can be threaded into a buried piton or crowded bolt hanger with ease.
The drawbacks I've found is that the little "ball" at the end of the gate makes it slightly more difficult to clip, they are expensive, and now this possible mode of failure. However, I speculate that being "meticulous" about which direction you clip your draws would drastically reduce this already unlikely scenario. Still, I wish the images in that video and of the broken 'biner didn't bug me so much.
|
|
Lamalain
Sport climber
Montreal
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
|
This is certainly scary. I checked and this could actually happen with other types of carabiners. Before you throw-out all your Angels out the window (which I was ready to do...), you might consider this simple fix: put a rubberband at the base of the sling, as shown below.
Hope this was useful :)
|
|
Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
|
Bottom/rope side biner? Bueno. Top/bolt side biner? No Bueno.
|
|
Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
|
Why would y'all care about light draws for sport climbing? Don't you know you're supposed to get someone else to hang the draws for you!?
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
|
I'll just save my Ange's for my non-dimpled Aliens... :)
|
|
gavinsmith
Trad climber
Toronto
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
|
FWIW, I cannot replicate this with an Ange S and Ange L at either end of a shoulder length BD dyneema sling (my normal alpine draws). There isn't enough stiffness in a sling to come anywhere close to causing this. It's definitely specific to the dogbone and biner setup as far as I can tell. I have a Finesse dogbone lying around somewhere, but haven't tried it yet.
|
|
DeepGlue
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
|
I had a very similar failure with a Wild Country Helium. Not sure exactly what happened, but the gate ended up outside the nose. I can totally believe it's more likely with Ange biners, but it can definitely happen with other biners too.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2015 - 01:53am PT
|
I sent an e-mail to the UIAA to notify them of the safety concerns. The link to this thread was included in my e-mail. I asked the UIAA to inform me if it has been reported and if the Petzl "Ange" is being investigated. If the UIAA responds, I will post that info here.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2015 - 10:10am PT
|
The UIAA Office Coordinator & Safety Label Administrator in Switzerland replied within minutes! She reported it to the Safety Commission of the UIAA and has asked for a response from Petzl. She intends to get back to me with a follow up.
|
|
jonnyrig
climber
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2015 - 10:11am PT
|
I predict the response to be....
meh.
|
|
coondogger
Trad climber
NH
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
|
Gate diameter needs to be changed along with the axle of the gate arm. The transition between the two components captures the sling.
|
|
pedroccda
climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 01:48am PT
|
I don't think so....
"I think that would happen with most wire gate biners if the draw or sling sideloads the gate. Your job is to rig your gear so that doesn't happen."
I think carabiner can move during climbing when tou are above it so you can't control it!!!
Dangerous!!!
|
|
richard masonn
Big Wall climber
revelstoke BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2015 - 07:43am PT
|
I can guarantee this biner was NOT back clipped. I have 15 years Trad / Big wall experience. I have taken 1000s of trad falls and know how to operate a quickdraw. Im not trying to convince people not to use these biners. Im simply reporting an incident. I understand people will have different views and blame it on user error etc. It will be your own decision whether or not you use these biners. personally i think the easiest solution is to just use something else, but like i said, thats your choice to make. climb hard and be safe
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 10:21am PT
|
Again, I view it much more as a problem with the design of the dogbone, not the biner: too stiff, too short. That was pretty apparent the moment I first picked up an Ange S draw and why I bought bare biners and ordered Metolius bones to make draws.
I would 'chalk' that design decision up to those draws being designed with a 'harness-handling and clipping feel' appealing more to sport climbers.
That said, it is the sort of nuance that's easily missed if you're somewhat more inclined to trust manufacturers' decisions and don't sweat the small details. But you're the one who'll be leaving the ground with it so it might be worth looking at every aspect of new gear designs and running it through your own filter.
|
|
Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 10:29am PT
|
I have taken 1000s of trad falls
1000s of trad falls in only 15 years?
You'd have to work like a dog to chalk up that that kind of falling, almost disregarding anything except putting another tick in the "I failed" column. Boggles the mind.
|
|
Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 10:57am PT
|
As a trad fall specialist, this must be just one of many
gear failures/injuries/mishaps.
At a 2% mishap rate, there would be at least 40 events.
Any other good ones?
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 11:03am PT
|
thousands of falls exaggerate much?
|
|
dirhk
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 11:45am PT
|
70 falls/year on average seems totally reasonable, even low, if one does a fair bit of sport climbing.
For examples, let's say you only get out sport climbing 25 times in a year, like 12 weekends ish. If you only fall 3 times each time you go out ... 75 falls/year*15year> 1000 falls. And this seems like a conservative estimate.
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
|
Jul 31, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
|
he said thousands and he specifically said trad falls.
no big deal who cares
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
|
|
1000 "takes" seems reasonable.
Prod.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
Well, I'm about as old as any of ya, and every carabiner on my rack is a wire gate, with the exception of three Petzl Spirits I rack nuts on.
By and large, I'd say that my climbing longevity partly because of technological advances, not in spite of them.
Of course, none of that stops people from denigrating things I say based on my age. Personally, I prefer actual reasons related to the subject under discussion, but the ad hominem attack is easy to deploy and plays well to audiences who at heart are not interested in the discussion anyway.
Moving on, it seems to me that the Petzl engineers understood that there was a catching problem with their gate, which is why they added the conical plastic "fairing" to the bottom. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be big enough. Perhaps we will see an updated version of the carabiner with a bigger cone and/or a revised shape at the hinge. Meanwhile, it seems that either a tighter draw or a keeper or, on the other hand, a softer draw with a bigger opening, combined with some clipping awareness, would mitigate the problem.
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
More is following. I found that issue can be reproduced with any dogbone. Thus I skipped on altering dogbones and start to alter binners.
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
|
|
philo
climber
|
|
I have to wonder if these scary scenarios had a part in Dr. thrill's freak accident.
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
I also have the same shots with Trange Phase, DMM Shield, MadRock Ultralight, Wild Country Helium, BD Oz (both hooded and old), DMM Alpha Trad, and Petzl Ange S.
It is easy to repeat: slide a dogbone up to position it against the binner's gate, twist the dogbone about a whole turn, pull. Viola!
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
Under what field circumstances would a dogbone ever be subjected to a full turn?
|
|
mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
|
|
WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE and should probably start using lockers on every piece of gear....
Seriously though, every carabiner has a potential failure method. Some are more likely than others. I've got stacks of older gold BD positron carabiners. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that thing cross loaded. But generally speaking I pay attention and correct it if it happens. Or if it is mission critical that a biner can't break I use two opposite and opposed. I'm sure a few of my partners think I'm crazy but I've broken enough carabiners to know that they do break.
And currently I've got a whole rack of Petzl Ange S biners. Can't say I've noticed them acting weird or the dogbone getting caught on the gate anymore or any less than other carabiners I've used.
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
rgold, operator mistake.
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
I saw it (twisted dogbone) several times - people clips on traversing terrain, then dive under the rope, and that's it - dogbone is a whole turn twisted. That's a more or less common way to repeat one possible operator mistake.
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
^^^^what mikeyshaefer said^^^^^^^
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE and should probably start using lockers on every piece of gear....
It's true.
Me and Bachar used lockers on a lot of routes because of the potential for gates opening in case of a long fall during long run outs .....
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Me and Bachar used lockers on a lot of routes... Dang it, are we going to have to start calling locker draws "Werner Draws" or "Bachar Draws" instead of "Granny Draws"?
|
|
pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
|
|
[Click to View YouTube Video]
This is to demonstrate how one could easily reproduce the issue using virtually any quickdraw on lot of "old" trad routes. All you need is a fixed piton - clip your quickdraw wrong direction (top to bottom instead of bottom to top), and it's piton end binner will be fixed, then rope friction lift the dogbone with the rope end binner up, pull, failure.
|
|
Bonow
Trad climber
Figueira, PR, Brasil
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2016 - 10:29am PT
|
Another problem of Petzl Ange, in the cross loaded, the small radius of the wire, damaged the rope, small fall(7 feet), sling without string.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
|
Bent Gate= Bent Dude!
One frowny face coming up... orrr down.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
|
What was the fall factor? If it was a high ff and the gate was crossloaded, and the biner didn't break, then it did fine.
|
|
5.9furevah
Trad climber
Brooklyn
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2016 - 08:20am PT
|
So ... this discussion seemed to die off pretty fast for something so deadly serious. Does everyone now agree this isn't a problem, or has everyone using Ange biners died?
|
|
overwatch
climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2016 - 09:09am PT
|
Probably because most of us are confident in our decision not to use those weird looking things. Understood that it can happen to any configuration so be prepared to take steps to mitigate the consequences as has been discussed.
To overcome your avatar move to where there is climbing and use your feet.
vvvvvvv yeah, trembling
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2016 - 09:11am PT
|
Or we're just to terrified to even think about it. There are so many ways to get the chop once you find the internet that folks have about given up climbing and are taking up Crocheting and Knitting. That's my guess.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2016 - 10:56am PT
|
Those weird looking things... Are great quick draws. You can break any Biner you cross load.
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2016 - 02:35pm PT
|
Problem #1-
A single post wire gate has zero resistance to side loading when not locked into the nose-key and appears to collapse so quickly in a fall situation that a sling or bone has no chance to slide back onto the spine where it belongs.
A double wire gate or solid gate, having two laterally opposed attachment points, has some lateral resistance, which would give the sling or bone a much better chance of sliding onto the frame and allowing the gate to lock into the nose.
Which leads to problem #2-
It appears as if the manufacturer has added a plastic cone at the base of the single post to help a bone or sling slide back onto the spine- a small lip still exists.
A double wire or solid gate is the same width as the frame allowing a sling or bone to easily slide back onto the spine with no obstruction.
If weight is that critical, take 4 Colon Cleanse the night before you climb.
|
|
overwatch
climber
Arizona
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
|
Understood that it can happen to any configuration
You can break any Biner you cross load.
So we agree
|
|
| Messages 1 - 92 of total 92 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!