Junipero Serra. Saint or slave master... new book

What was his alleged miracle, or miracles?

rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley

Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2015 - 03:
http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2015/07/10/the-emerging-truth-about-junipero-serra-and-the-california-missions/

New book (see review in link above) claiming the California Missions were basically slave plantations run by the Franciscans. Personally I had never heard of the accusations before. Heavy stuff. And our pope ('ours' in that he seems to otherwise be a cool guy) wants to bestow Sainthood on Serra. hmmm




Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA

Jul 24, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
The treatment of the people that were here first was brutal to say the least.





Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan

Jul 24, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
That monk was hell.

DMT


scrubbing bubbles
Trad climber
...where the streets have gnostic names

Jul 24, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
Found it ironic as a teen that beneath the giant, finger-pointing Father Serra statue pull-out off 280, men weren't pulling out at all


ewwwww.....too much information !!!!

what were you doing hanging out there at night? praying?





mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jul 24, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
Don't get me started.

It's the Catholics' problem, one of too many to address.

I hope the friar is on fire for his misdeeds if we are on a 'rewards' basis in the cosmos.

Somewhere near the Roman emperors who condemned thousands of Christians to be cat food.

rockermike, you're invited to keep up with some current events at The Flames, where we've had ongoing repartee about the Serra sainthood issue for months.

That Matthew Fox article is full-on righteous, though, so thanks for posting it.

"Matthew Fox is a theologian and Episcopal priest who was a Dominican friar for 34 years. He was expelled from the order by Cardinal Ratzinger for, among other things, “working too closely with Native Americans” and supporting women’s, gay, and indigenous rights. His 32 books have been translated into 58 languages..."

My kinda guy.

I'll be checking the book out from the library when it comes around the mountain.





ß Î Ø T Ç H
Trad climber
Shitalkqua, WA

Jul 24, 2015 - 10:56pm PT
... keep up with some current events at The Flames ...
That thread is ball shot. Somebody deleted the original.
Jul 24, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
California Missions were basically slave plantations run by the Franciscans.
I'm catholic by birth, but is anyone dumb enough to be shocked by this revelation, after all the alter-boy sex abuse cases etc? Kind of like "oh, by the way ..."





CA.Timoth
climber
California

Jul 25, 2015 - 07:53am PT
Pope Francis recently apologized for Church sins while conquering the New World on his latest trip to South America.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pope-francis-apologizes-for-catholic-churchs-offenses-against-indigenous-peoples_559f02aae4b096729155dd59

Also for a good read, check out "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" by Bartolome de las Casas

He was one of the few priests at the time to document abuses and report them to the Spanish Crown. Serra seems silent on the issue as far as I know. Serra was also recently canonized. The first step to becoming a Saint.





Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan

Jul 25, 2015 - 09:34am PT
We should rename Junipero Serra Peak back to its Indian name, Pimkolam or failing that, Santa Lucia Peak.

DMT




feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery

Jul 25, 2015 - 10:48am PT
Anyone here read 1491? or 1493 ?

Or native accounts of the Black Robes? Ugh! I do not accept any apology, other than from an individual standing before me, telling me they are going to spend the rest of their life working to set things right for those indigenous peoples and their grandchildren who were so thoroughly traumatized, terrorized, and murdered in the name of G*d. As if G*d had anything to do with their predations! Ha!

No one—not Nazis or priests, not nuns or monks, have the right to immunity when they hide behind any institutional dogma as a means to harm anyone. I think in the final accounting, we are each held responsible for our actions, whether we are following dogma, directions, orders, or officials. We are self-responsible for our actions because we have each been given the gift of conscience. No matter what anyone else says or does, we are responsible if we harm another person, and I think the matter is especially heinous when predators prey on innocents and the vulnerable.

Si, yes, I agree with Mouse and others. Serra and all those who hid behind robes and religion must answer for a lot of predatory actions.

(feralfae downclimbs very crowded soapbox on which many of us stand) :)

There: I've had my rant on behalf of many of my ancestors. Thank you.
ff






Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California

Jul 25, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
No one—not Nazis or priests, not nuns or monks, have the right to immunity when they hide behind any institutional dogma as a means to harm anyone. I think in the final accounting, we are each held responsible for our actions, whether we are following dogma, directions, orders, or officials. We are self-responsible for our actions because we have each been given the gift of conscience.

Sure sounds Protestant to me.






TGT
Social climber
So Cal

Jul 25, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
Sure sounds Protestant to me.

My first reaction to the thread title was

So? didn't everyone know this?

Raised in one of the more abolitionist protestant traditions, Serra was always viewed as a slave master even in elementary school history class.







Studly
Trad climber
WA

Jul 25, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
The Catholic's were the least of the offenders, utilizing Indian labor. There was a bounty on Indian heads and scalps ranging up to $5 in California, and thousands of Californians cashed in and made a living off it. Its why not to many Indians in Cali today. The 1850 Act for the Government and Protection of the Indians allowed any white person to literally make an Indian their slave. So to single out the Catholic's as "The slave master's" is a little far fetched and out of touch. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of you guys getting all indignant and stuff.





mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jul 25, 2015 - 08:08pm PT
I believe we are commenting on the book, Studly, which has to do with the church's involvement in California history, and not on other sources of woe for the indigenous population.

You have a valid argument, but here is not where to pursue it. But if you must...







Ward Trotter
Trad climber

Jul 25, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
My recent curiosity about the Esselen Native Americans of what is now Monterey and Big Sur,revealed that Serra was engaged in a power struggle with the military governor of Alto California, Pedro Fages. The on-going dispute was primarily over who, and to what purpose, the local natives would be used as conscripted labor. Serra soon thought it wise to put some distance between himself and the esteemed Govenor,and so he moved from the Presidio area over to what is now the Carmel locale and thereby established the still extant Carmel Mission.

Fages appears to have been quite content with the new arrangement--- in as much as he distrusted Serra to the same degree as Serra distrusted him. No doubt he hoped the natives would stage a murderous uprising and dispose of the good Father-- which of course never occurred, much to Fage's chagrin.

I don't know for certain but my guess would be that Serra eventually thought it important in his calculations of self-interests to enumerate his various struggles with a succession of Spanish Crown representatives , such as Fages, by frequently writing numerous letters sent back home detailing his difficulties in this regard, hoping to gather support --leading to his admissions and descriptions of the natives as commodities to be fought over, like cattle, in a faraway hostile and wild territory.

So apparently not all of these missives remained in the Vatican archives---some making their way into the general Spanish historical archives and ultimately into the eager and ever-probing hands of modern day historians.







mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jul 26, 2015 - 03:18am PT
http://books.google.com/books/about/Missionary_Conquest.html?id=8uL6knHvq_kC

Having to do with this other book by George E. "Tink" Tinker
Missionary Conquest: The Gospel and Native American Cultural Genocide





feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery

Jul 26, 2015 - 08:25am PT
Sure sounds Protestant to me.

LOL, yes, the worst of them. Although I grew up in part within the Catholic tradition, and a product of their schools and undergrad school, but also with Anglican, Jewish, and Taoist roots, and I must add Algonquin and Lakota, so truly a mongrel, dogmatically.

A mongrel who became a Quaker. :)

Times are changing: there is more open discussion these days of how we have thought and acted as humans, how our humanity has developed, and how we might do better toward each other in the future. Yet, to use spiritual authority—a questionable device at best (remember, I am a Quaker)—to prey on innocents and those over whom we hold any form of dominion, is an abuse of power. Same for abuse of political power, although that is not this discussion.

When we can look at these past practices, and the results for humans these practices engendered, then I think we can begin to open our minds and hearts to look for kinder and more equitable ways to treat each other. No one is exempt from this, but one of the first lessons is to recognize that we can only begin with changing ourselves.

We are a young species, and before we are invited into a larger cosmic community, if there is one, I think we are going to need to learn to at least follow simple nursery rules. I include myself in this learning.

Thank you
feralfae





overwatch

climber

Jul 26, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
Probably shouldn't say reared and catholic tradition in the same sentence.


mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Jul 26, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
Especially if you don't want folks thinking your mind is in the gutter.







overwatch
climber

Jul 26, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Yeah!
No need to change it, I was just joking. And I think Mr Merced was talking about my mind being in the gutter.

.

Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Sep 23, 2015 - 10:04am PT
Thanks to Sera, we speak Spanish here. And not Russian, or something.

The Catholic's were the least of the offenders, utilizing Indian labor. There was a bounty on Indian heads and scalps ranging up to $5 in California, and thousands of Californians cashed in and made a living off it. Its why not to many Indians in Cali today. The 1850 Act for the Government and Protection of the Indians allowed any white person to literally make an Indian their slave. So to single out the Catholic's as "The slave master's" is a little far fetched and out of touch. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of you guys getting all indignant and stuff.

claiming the California Missions were basically slave plantations run by the Franciscans. Personally I had never heard of the accusations before. Heavy stuff. And our pope ('ours' in that he seems to otherwise be a cool guy) wants to bestow Sainthood on Serra. hmmm

A flurry of recent Serra scholarship, however, suggests the politics of the Spanish conquest were complicated. Missions were established with much greater success and lesser suffering in other parts of the American continent – particularly by the Jesuits. Serra’s mandate only arose because the Vatican temporarily disbanded the Jesuits in 1767, and many of the mistakes he and the Franciscans made were the result of inexperience, according to Professor Starr.

“The perspective of Franciscans and Dominicans of that era was: God will punish us for the way we treat the Indians, so we’ve got to protect them as some kind of atonement,” Starr told the Guardian. “Serra knew he couldn’t keep California a Franciscan mission protectorate forever. He hoped that by the time Spaniards came in large numbers, Native Americans would be educated and competent to deal with it. That was the dream, but the dream never came true.”