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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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No idea about your question, but it was fun watching you dangle on it! Was that a worthy route to try?
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jsj
climber
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Worthy enough to try again the next day - properly equipped with a more relaxed demeanor (and tape gloves) I pink-pointed. However I would like to climb it placing all gear on lead so I'm contemplating what should be done with the mank that currently resides up there.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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You don't have to ask, just clean up the mess.
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Boing!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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did you ask around at the morning gathering at the store? I'm sure there's someone who knows someone who might know who the gear was placed by...
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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If the "gear" has been there for more than a month it should be tossed to the ground . . . Unless of course you are unable to climb the route due to lack of ability and inexperience.
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jsj
climber
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I found out that the gear was placed by locals (who like to run laps on the route) and has been there for at least two years (some of it is in pretty bad shape). They asked that it not be removed or, if anyone wants to climb it on their own gear that they replace the fixed gear when they are done.
This would likely require four laps on the route (it is a traverse): once to get the rope through the existing gear, once to follow/clean the existing gear, once to lead on one's own gear, and once to follow/clean swapping out one's own gear for the fixed gear again.
Like lots of other great crags many of the bolted climbs on this cliff are equipped with fixed draws which I very much appreciate. I'm grateful to those that have contributed to this effort. However, my confusion stemmed from the fact that this is only the second time I've ever encountered a gear route that was completely and apparently "perpetually" equipped with trad gear (the other being the French Connection in the Gunks).
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Rain Man
Sport climber
Bishop
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The cams have been there for years. Makes it much easy to take a lap on w/o cleaning, following etc. I wonder if people would get all butt-hurt/freaked out if someone just added bolts to the route and removed the gear? With the interspersed bolts that are already there and the juggy nature of the climb - to me it makes no difference climbing above/horizontal a good cam or a bolt; re bolting it would just eliminate the mess. But I have no interest in starting a bolt/no bolt debate
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Pull that crap. It sets a dangerous precedent, and could potentially kill someone. Don't bolt it either. If you want to climb it, bring gear.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Leaving fixed gear or ropes, that you don't want to be considered booty, on established routes just so you can run laps, is poor style.....regardless if you're a "local" or just visiting from Mars.
By the way, what comprises a local in Tuloumne ......was not aware there were any permanent residents?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Locals=The people who will put it back up Monday if you clean the gear this weekend.
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Rain Man
Sport climber
Bishop
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Ugh. I'm getting sucked in...
A local in this case is anyone that climbs at this sleepy crag frequently during the season, either from the west side of the pass or the east; below is a little bit of context for all the interwebs armchair QBs
The route is a horizontal traverse along a huge roof 1 pitch off the ground. It is a combination of bolts with some solid (as of last year) older camalots placed horizontally in good horizontal slots. It is a little messy (dirty) up there, you want to check and maybe tweak the placements slightly. The crag is located outside of the NPS, only climbers walk down the steep rocky trail to get to the crag, any detail other than a bright rope is essentially invisible from the distant highway, and the cams are hard to ID as such even from the bottom of the route - they appear to essentially to be quickdraws hanging on the rock place every 10-12 feet (maybe 5 total cams?). The visual impact is the same as any bolted route at the crag. It is acceptable practice at this crag to leave permanent draws on the popular routes. The cams were mostly likely left by the people who have put the most time, energy, love and money into this crag and its trail. It's not my route, not my gear; but I have enjoyed getting a quick pump on it without my partner having to follow and clean a 12C sans falls (wouldn't be able to get back on in most spots). You climb a sport route to approach the traverse and the traverse has several bolts to supplement the cams. With the fixed gear, a long rope and some forethought you can run a lap and lower to the ground. Yes this is a fitness, slightly mixed, sportclimbing crag and has some nice conveniences for getting a lot of laps in during the short afternoon shade climbing window. Cheers to JSJ for talking to people in person at the crag! ... oh the good old days of face-to-face conversation
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Thanks Rainman, that was articulate and made sense.
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jsj
climber
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Thanks Rain Man - just a couple insignificant clarifications since it is fresh in my mind:
The route is a horizontal traverse along a huge roof 1 pitch off the ground.
The approach pitch is approximately a vertical 90' and the pitch in question is approximately an 80' traverse. With my 80m cord I could lead from the ground, across the traverse, and lower off without my partner having to climb. This could probably be done with a 70 too. There was significant rope drag and when I pink pointed I brought my partner up to the belay - but when I go back to lead it placing gear I aim to leave her on the ground and pull the rope through and drop it back down to reduce drag.
It is a combination of bolts with some solid (as of last year) older camalots placed horizontally in good horizontal slots. It is a little messy (dirty) up there, you want to check and maybe tweak the placements slightly.
There are four bolts total: A couple gear placements, 3 bolts close together, then a long stretch of gear placements, then one more bolt, then a final, horizontal OW section to the anchor.
(maybe 5 total cams?)
I didn't count but it was definitely closer to ten. Regardless, the bulk of this route is gear-protected.
Everything else Rain Man said is completely accurate. No one should worry about the fixed gear being either an eyesore or an access issue for that matter. However, the condition of the gear is debatable. I found that many of the slings on these pieces had a case of the crispy crunchies. About half the placements had slings or biners levering over the sharp edge of the horizontal - adjusting the positions of cams would take care of that but in at least one case the springs or axles on a cam that I tweaked a bit were so rusted that they lobes wouldn't extend outwards again to find contact with the rock. Apart from my desire to lead the route placing the gear myself, one could argue that this gear is not being maintained enough to keep it trustworthy - though you could probably zipper half the pieces on that roof and still be dangling in space (no harm, but you'd poop yourself).
In a completely separate, unrelated incident, on that same trip I watched two visiting climbers remove two sharp biners from the fixed draws on a route they were climbing. Earlier that day I climbed another route and found several very sharp biners which I simply inverted after clipping, but admittedly I was worried belaying my girlfriend on the same route (she fell several times) that she would neglect to flip them, fall, and the unthinkable might happen. My only point is that while the fixed draws are awesome, they do need to be maintained. I've spent very few days at this crag over the years but I will say that of the couple dozen climbers I've met there all were from the Bay Area, Tahoe, Vegas, etc. One Tahoe climber said he was contributing chains and hopefully steel biners to the cause - so maybe we all have a responsibility to take care of our crags, locals or not. Next time I go I'll certainly bring a bunch of extra biners to swap out for the sharp ones I come across.
Back to Dangle Fest: It is a five star, classic route. It is amazing - not particularly technically difficult (not sure there's a 5.12 move on it) but blue collar and wild. I hope familiarity hasn't diminished this experience for the locals who warm up and cool down and even free solo on this thing. Sadly, I will not be using Dangle Fest for those purposes anytime soon, but though I climbed it on the existing gear with my partner up at the belay with me, I do want to go back and climb it in one big pitch placing all the gear on lead (#whatsyourdawnwall). I just think it would be nice (arguably more considerate?) if there wasn't a ratty old rack (no offense intended) in the way of those who want to climb this route in such a fashion. I would think that anyone capable of running laps on it would also be capable of hiking a few (fully sussed) cams down from their car, leading it with them, and then running a second lap to clean it again. As a visiting climber, on my next trip I hope to invest my time projecting some of the harder routes at the crag, rather than climbing Dangle Fest four times in a row. I guess it's possible that I'm the only one out there who ever felt that way though.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Earlier that day I climbed another route and found several very sharp biners which I simply inverted after clipping, but admittedly I was worried belaying my girlfriend on the same route (she fell several times) that she would neglect to flip them, fall, and the unthinkable might happen.
Dear Darwin,
The penny hasn't dropped. What to do?
Sincerely,
Morons having their last Summer of fun
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Kind of a simple situation to me. If you want to leave gear at a crag then don't be surprised if somebody takes it. Noone owns the rock. You make your own personal decision about leaving gear and are subject to other's personal decisions on the same issue.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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If I see gear left on a route, it's gone in 60 seconds. How else did i get my rack. ;)
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Remove the gear but do not take it. You are doing them a favor already and they will be able to put it back.
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Dyno Brian
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Speaking of stolen racks didn't the OP Josh Janes lift Cragman's rack and other items when Dean allowed him into his home? Maybe we need a whole new thread on ethics in climbing.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Josh, I respect the way you approached this situation by talking about it here. I have tried this approach before, but most comments that you get are either form the completely uninformed or don't add anything helpful. There was only 2-3 posts in this thread of any merit, but I'm sure you didn't learn anything from them you couldn't already assume. In the end you are one of the more morally sound people in our tribe and can make the best decisions.
I think if I encountered cams in the state that you describe, I would just take them down and dump them in the nearest trash can (the rusty ones at least). I've done that on some routes in the valley, so why not here? Same thing that I did with a couple of razor-sharp biners from a few routes over the same day we saw you there (and then the next day at the column of the giants). I didn't feel the need to ask. Yes, they were someone else's biners contributed by some generous developer, but they have lived out their intended course and were dangerous. I didn't have any with me for replacement at that moment, but I'll bring them next time (I've got steel ones already in my backpack). Until then, people could either use their own draws or stay off the route. I don't care either way.
I really hope that in the future the dangerous aluminum biners will be replaced by steel at this cliff - I am doing my part. It would be irresponsible to replace the worn biners with more aluminum at such a high traffic crag, unless only temporarily. It would eventually lead to a fatal accident and potential access problems or ban on fixed gear. Nobody wants that.
As for dangle fest: any locals who want to "lap" it for fitness could also add more fitness to their day by lapping it back, cleaning THEIR OWN cams on the way back and lowering back down the approach pitch. You could also do that if you intend on cleaning the route. I respect it if you don't feel like doing all the work cleaning stuck cams (it sounds like a lot), but if you choose to do it - do it right, please. Also, it's not unprecedented to bolt certain cracks for special reasons. If this one is going to have rusty cams in it anyway, maybe bolts and permadraws are a better (and cheaper) solution? At least they won't be in the way of anyone trying to redpoint the pitch on gear.
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