Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
Payback is a bitch for the Greeks that pitch-forked those German paratroopers before they hit the ground...
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
When people talk about "The Economy," they shortsightedly look at the stock market, which is NOT "The Economy." The real economy has more to do with the velocity of money, the manner in which debt is repaid, along with the number of defaults associated. Although others here believe that credit cards will be OK, PayPal has suspended processing Greek payments, and PayPal is credit card based.
The average Greek on the Street is going to be made to feel the pain DELIBERATELY! The ECB will be seeking payback time in order to punish this upstart country's thumbing it's nose at the coalition currently in power.
My bottom line "take" on the situation: don't visit Greece until any potential for violent demonstrations subsides. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the first thing to be hit is the energy sector, since Greece has no oil, no coal to speak of, and damned little remaining forest timber to convert into firewood. Cooking will be difficult since natural Gas distributed from Western Europe must be paid for in Euros. Enter Russia and it's nearly limitless energy reserves, and cheap natural gas.
I'm still waiting for the Fat Lady to sing before I plan my Greek Vacation. ;)
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
I argue the opposite. Now is the time for people who love Greece to visit and show their support. It's only Greek credit cards that have been cut off, not those from rich countries who can pay. Tourism is an easy way to circumvent the death hold of the foreign banks. If worried, carry cash.
Of course now is the time to visit Nepal also to show solidarity and help them back on their feet. Tough choice between two of my favorite countries.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Russia isn't going to help Greece, Putin is just playing Three Card Monte
against them to aggravate us vis a vis Ukraine. He doesn't need a naval
port in Greece a day's sail from his Crimean ports. Besides, why would he
want to sell gas to another country that cannot afford it?
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Reilly-
It wouldn't cost Putin very much to drive his foot in the door by selling VERY CHEAP natural gas to Greece, since there's a real surplus. Western Europe is already heavily dependent on Russia's energy for sale. Whether or not the Greeks can pay for it, they then become vassals to the Bear to the East. This is a Geopolitical game being played out behind the scenes. There is far more to the overall situation than meets the eye of the average beholder...
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Reilly-
In response to one of your earlier posts---I too, believe that the Big Fat Greek Vacation will become considerably more expensive. It's simply a matter of supply versus demand. With a shortage of hard currency to buy food internationally, the Greek population will feel a pinch in the pocketbook. They will not be offering discounted meals and accommodations to tourists in order to lose money in the process.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
I argue the opposite. Now is the time for people who love Greece to visit and show their support. It's only Greek credit cards that have been cut off, not those from rich countries who can pay.
The Greek population is living off the rest of the world already and provides a measly 2% of the Europe GNP. Damn if I want to spend any more to support a lazy nation that produces nothing and wants it all, gratis.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
You can give your money to the already rich if that suits you. Personally, I sympathize more with the poor nations of the world who have to work many times harder to make up for their lack of resources and who have discovered in the process that money isn't evey thing.
At least it wasn't Greece who launched two major wars in the past century and brought misery to millions. You'd think that the Germans who suffered under the treaty of Versailles and their own economic ruin as a result, would have a little more compassion to the Greeks under the circumstances. Or that they would remember the generosity of the allies toward them after the war and be a little more humble.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
Greece does not need to be poor, they have chosen the path of entitlement without working to be a viable economy. They support a corrupt government feeding off the EU.
What does Greece produce?
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
What does Greece produce?
Wine, cheese and olives.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Perhaps the bigger object lesson here relates to the issue of corruption.
There are so many countries of the world, in which the progress of the country is stunted by the corruption. And it seems that the path to real prosperity of it's citizens is stymied by the corruption.
We've tried to take this on in Afghanistan and Iraq, unsuccessfully. Same in So. Viet Nam.
So here is a western country with the same problem. It should be the poster boy for how to eradicate corruption.....and yet, it is not. If corruption cannot be eliminated from Greece, how is it possible to eradicate it from, say, Africa?
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
What say Johntp? You think Germany paid the costs they created?
This has nothing to do with WW1 or WW2. It is about Greece taking economic reponsibility.
edit: in 2015
edit 2: WW2 ended in 1945; 70 years ago.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Perhaps the bigger object lesson here relates to the issue of corruption.
There are so many countries of the world, in which the progress of the country is stunted by the corruption. And it seems that the path to real prosperity of it's citizens is stymied by the corruption.
Ken, I agree that corruption stunts progress, but I think a bigger issue in Greece concerns the quip about running out of other people's money. The Greek economic system depends on entitlements that cannot be sustained in a steady state. In that circumstance, the system needs at least one of two things to sustain itself -- either a continuous source of "other people's money," or an expanding population of workers (with at least constant productivity).
Greece has run out of either option. In contrast, the Greek Tragedy (so to speak) differs from, say, the California situation because California's population of workers keeps increasing. In any case, without continuous bailouts, Greece will alter its economic system. The only question was whether the alteration will come from EU dictates, or from within Greece itself. The referendum's results mean that the Greeks themselves will decide.
I agree with Jan that increasing Greek receipts will help their economy, but I disagree with her comments about the Marshall Plan. The Germans, and everyone else who tried to bail Greece out, will take a haricut on their debt regardless of what they want. The difference is that the Marshall Plan gave aid in a way that allowed the recipients to build more sustainable economies. Nothing Germany can do will make the Greek economy sustainable without fundamental changes in Greece itself.
John
|
|
John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
|
|
Nothing Germany can do will make the Greek economy sustainable without fundamental changes in Greece itself
Agreed. One thing that struck me in Greece, was the number of people that hung out all day. Large plazas, with tables of people eating and drinking with no apparent need to work. Dunno how you back off of that.
Seems obvious the outcome. The smartest people leave Greece and the void is filled with Syrians, well sprinkled with ISIS. Not a new thing, prior to WW1, parts of Greece were in the Ottoman Empire.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
John, there's no easy answer, because the Greek system paid for workers to retire at 61 or earlier. The same thing will happen to Social Security unless we make some fundamental changes soon. Fortunately for the US, the required changes are small and doable. For Greece, with so many people changing their position in reliance on the promise of government support, the changes will be painful and difficult.
John
|
|
John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
|
|
One of the worst things Bill Clinton did. I've forgotten which Republican it was, proposed a minor change to put SS on the right track. Clinton politicized that, running around saying "They want to take away your Social Security". Much more difficult to overcome that now.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
Fortunately for the US, the required changes are small and doable
Perhaps these changes are doable when only one program is considered--but in a much broader sense the U.S. is clearly headed in much the same direction as Greece -- as evidenced primarily by many of the attitudes increasingly on display by more and more elements of the general population-- and certain politicians who benefit from spiraling levels of government dependence.
Totalitarianism is the eventual end game here if a course correction is not embarked on in this country as well. This is not hyperbole.
Ordinary citizens must be strong and independent in order to sustain any vestiges of a working democracy. They must be in charge of their own destiny --- but they have been forfeiting this to forces that are outside of their control. The debt clock is a perfect illustration of this.
Unfortunately I do not think that currently the collective intelligence is great enough-- absent a huge economic reset/collapse button being pushed.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
One of the worst things Bill Clinton did. I've forgotten which Republican it was, proposed a minor change to put SS on the right track. Clinton politicized that, running around saying "They want to take away your Social Security". Much more difficult to overcome that now.
Agreed. The demagoguery surrounding Social Security has made it more difficult to fix politically, but the changes are still miniscule compared with the sorts of changes Greece will eventually make, one way or another.
Philo, regardless of whether Germany forgives Greek debt or not, it won't get that debt repaid. More importantly, though, even if every creditor of the Greek government forgave the government's debt, Greece would still end up where it is now without very fundatmental changes to its entitlements.
John
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
We are way more screwed then Greece, but are collectively just to dense to realize it yet. Especially since we are being spoon fed a special brand of bullshit from our news media.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!