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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It's just as dumb when the far left people think they know what's going on in other people's heads as when the far right does it.
Instead of listening and learning about how other people think, some people assume the worst about others and try to define their oppositions view point for them. This is a great recipe for hate, misunderstanding, and animosity but gets in the way of people getting along better or making progress towards a better society.
As soone as someone hears someone else mischaracterize their view point they get defensive and hope of a productive discussion goes out the window.
E.g. If you say to someone "flying that flag makes you a racist" when they are not one they will react with FU. I'll do what I want. But if you say "you know the majority of African Americans view that flag as racist and its really offensive and insulting to them and other people" you might get somewhere.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Locker, my wife read this thread and wondered about the deletions. She is not familiar with the workings of forums, so I explained it a bit and told her the story you posted and deleted about visiting your relatives in the South. She completely understood, but I think that story summed it up in a lot of ways how racism can linger and how it can change, and I agree that it takes time and generations sometimes to overcome these deep-seated cultural identities that hinder our intelligent progress to a more civilized attitude. I have a few similar experiences but none that harsh. That kind of stuff can really mess with a child's understanding of civility and tolerance.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I guess only the Union compounds should be upheld for history? Act like it never happened right? The lee compound is rich in american history. Good history and Bad history together.
After the flag, what else needs to be removed to make the world right again for african americans?
Honest question.
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dirtbag
climber
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The flag is displayed as a sign of modern day reverence.
That's much different than preserving historical sites as places of learning and a connection to the past.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Timid TopRope:
Having empathy in this case means, yes, I can see some Southerners do not equate that flag with racism but MILLIONS of good Americans have family members terrorized by the Klan and UNDERSTAND that there is another meaning to that symbol.
Why not respect the Millions that find it hurtful and intimidating and stand with those who say a museum is the proper place for that symbol?
TT's words are the only thing of value in this hate filled thread.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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The flag is displayed as a sign of modern day reverence.
That's much different than preserving historical sites as places of learning and a connection to the past.
So the flag can fly at Lee's compound right?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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TT's words are the only thing of value in this hate filled thread.
I respectfully disagree. I value all perspectives even when I disagree. That does not mean that I embrace them.
Sure enough, Locker, I asked her if she saw it and I guess she just missed it. To me, that story says volumes. I think most here are really trying to be better people when it comes to intolerance, but we stumble and make mistakes and that is how wisdom is gained.
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dirtbag
climber
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So the flag can fly at Lee's compound right?
If the purpose is to create an accurate depiction of the compound during the 1860s then I would vote yes, if someone asked me.
If it was to honor some kind of modern, vague notion about a fictional southern heritage, or a modern tribute to the confederate, white supremacist cause, then I think that would be entirely different.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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To me, that story says volumes.
It does speak volumes... about a time that if far different from the present, much like that KKK billboard (from the 60s).
To hear folks here tell it, the present day South is just as racist as it was 60 years ago. A backwater, full of bigoted rednecks. Yet, the majority of African Americans live in the South. Their numbers are steadily growing. I wonder why.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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If it was to honor some kind of modern, vague notion about a fictional southern heritage, or a modern tribute to the confederate, white supremacist cause, then I think that would be entirely different.
Folks I know in West Virginia do not associate the flag flying with anything "modern". Nothing fictional about what went down in the south.
Maybe this opinion of what you think the south feels is wrong?
I dunno, but I assure you, that flag flying most certainly does not depict anything "modern" to the majority of southerners.
If it did, everyone from the south would be racist according to your view.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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This topic reminds me a lot of the use of Redskins for the names of sports teams.
There are a lot of people who just see Redskins as a nostalgic name. e.g. the Washington Redskins have been around since 1937 and many fans just see it as the name of the team. They don't understand how offensive it is to some people.
IMO the government should not allow public teams (schools) to have this name. And thankfully the state of CA is close to doing that.
For private teams it's thornier. But again if the team owner had enough empathy to think about how this makes some people feel, instead of just how he feels about it, he'd probably be okay with changing the name. They should go back to the Braves. As they were named before 1937.
But again political correctness can take things to far. Some people want all native American names banned for sports teams. Like Chiefs, Braves, etc. IMO those names aren't offensive because it's not a derogatory name like Redskins. If anything I see those names as showing respect to the badassness of Braves and Chiefs. But again that's my opinion and if other people don't feel that way I'd be open to hearing about it. But if it's like 1% of the people who are against it, well there are always people with some problem with everything.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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If you pick out individuals, you can always find bad examples of racial tolerance. As a whole, I think we are making progress toward a day when the concept of "tolerance" is transformed to "acceptance" and eventually, "embracement" (that's not a real word, but it should be). These things require a process of involvement that goes beyond mere lip service.
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dirtbag
climber
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. I dunno, but I assure you, that flag flying most certainly does not depict anything "modern" to the majority of southerners.
Actually, it does. To many, who are not outright racists or confederate sympathizers, it has taken on a modern meaning of a whitewashed Southern heritage that never existed. You can see this kind of historical bullshit in how the confederate army has been depicted in books, movies, and lore. But that's not what that flag meant historically, and even through integration, it was still raised as a symbol of white supremacy.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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I could take you to parts of the South where you would swear it was 60 years ago...
No doubt. But are they representative of the mainstream? Representative of more than a tiny fraction of the population?
The bigotry still exists...
To deny it is ridiculous...
Did someone deny the existence of bigotry?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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How much time have you spent in these areas in the last five years?
I ask because you seem to be an expert on the subject.
Edit: And because so much of what you describe sounds like behavior from a different era. Like 50 years ago.
I know a bunch of country boys. I can only think of one person who used racist language in the last 10 years.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Too much?
How many weeks? Months?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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I am not about to name names...
But just on this forum alone, I personally know at least a few that use the "N" word on a pretty regular basis...
EDITED:
I live in California now and hear the "N" word spoken VERY often...
Now I get it. California is full of racists and you guys think racism is worse in the South. It just has to be.
Edit: Why don't you ever answer my questions to you? They're fairly simple.
Then again, they may not reflect well on you.
I've spent most of my life in the South.
Don't know if I've know any KKK members.
We had a African American couple over for dinner a few weeks ago. Nice people. She just left a job working for Michelle Obama. Amazing woman.
No. I didn't vote for Obama. Why?
Not a Republican.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sketch, your 2/10 troll posts are almost as boring as I’m sure you are in person. The only thing worse than someone that speaks much and says little, is someone who is oblivious to the fact that it’s them.
Give it a rest. We are not impressed.
It’s clear you have zero idea what you’re talking about, yet you seem strangely convinced of your positions. As I’ve mentioned before, my wife’s friend and her white husband live in Texas with their little girl. They have been menaced with a gun on the freeway by white racists, and have been addressed in a restaurant by white people regarding their “disgusting” mixed daughter. No, times are not the same as they were in the 1960s, but they are definitely way worse than you’d like to convey with your cavalier posts.
You are either creating this persona online to try and get a reaction, or genuinely have no experience with such situations, and thus are ill equipped to sincerely comment on such issues.
Don’t try and distract from the actual topics with your false-comparisons and such.
1. Today to the majority of Americans (and the VAST majority with IQ over 100), the Confederate Flag is a symbol of institutional racism, as well as the defense of it through a terrible war. To deny this removes you from the running of eligible debaters.
2. If our sweet southern brethren want to display the flag on a personal level, they should have the right to do so. Just like they have the right to display the Nazi symbol, etc. It’s their right, and I think they should have it. I prefer it, actually, because I know exactly what kind of a “person” I’m dealing with based on the flag they choose to honor. Put it on your t-shirt, your bumper sticker, etc. Again, I’d rather overt racism than covert – so much easier to engage that way.
3. The Confederate Flag should not be flown over any public offices, or on our government-provided license plates, etc. Again, museums and such things would be fine places to house such an artifact. There are many such symbols are barbaric and moronic eras from ancient times in museums, kept nice and neat for us to hopefully remember and learn from.
Nice reply to my boring, unimpressive posts.
Edit: What happened to "To respond to it gives it merit, boys. I suggest the ole ignore-patrol"?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Then you personally have no doubt been witness to quite a bit of bigotry...
Definitely.
Very little in the last 20-30 years.
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