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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 21, 2015 - 09:00am PT
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I read that since base is illegal in National Parks, in an attempt to minimize the likelyhood of getting caught, jumpers are jumping at dusk or near dark. Clearly that may be a contributing factor to increasing the danger in an already dangerous activity.
How many cliffs suitable for base jumping are in Yosemite? 5, 10, a couple of dozen? It seems as though the NPS is more interested in arresting jumpers (waiting for them in the meadow to catch them after the illegal jump) than they are in actually stopping the activity? Wouldn't it be an effective deterrant to have rangers at the top of the cliffs for an hour around dusk, so the jumps would not happen? No arrests, but no jumps either?
Either make a real attempt to stop jumping BEFORE it happens, or just allow it, so jumpers aren't adding additional risk by forcing them into poor visibility jumps.
I'm not saying NPS is complicit in what happened. Two guys made the choice to jump. No one forced them. But I do feel that the current NPS methods of enforcement (waiting until after the jump so an arrest can be made) is not effective? Thoughts?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 21, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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NPS needs to allow a certain amount of legal jumping sites and times. Yosemite has some of the best, safest jump points in the world. Not to mention spectacular. Not suggesting they allow proximity flying but regular base or even wingsuit from some points is about as safe as it can get.
Half Dome..El Cap.
Doubt it would stop all illegal jumping activity but I do think the desire to jump there is reasonable and too strong to stop. Why not go with it? If done properly it might increase safety.
They allow Hang gliding at a certain time from Glacier Point.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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May 21, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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Yeah..that sounds practical. Let's have the NPS post people at all the potential jump sites twice a day. Sounds like a great use of resources (sarcasm, in case you missed it). Personally, I'd rather just see it legalized. If that's not going to happen, I just don't see this "prevention" scheme as a practical alternative.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 21, 2015 - 09:12am PT
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^^^ +1
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 21, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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First off, it's not 'flying'. It's falling like a rock with a cape on.
Secondly, it's ritualized suicide - look at the statistics.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 21, 2015 - 09:20am PT
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I completely agree regarding proximity flying and short base jumps.. but not necessarily base in general.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 21, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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Nope, how about we not have these guys scaring the crap out of climbers who are not expecting someone to go hurtling off above them?
Frankly I don't see any "need" for BASE or wingsuit shenanigans to be legal.
It would be more cost effective to hire sharp shooters than to have to have rangers trek up to common jump locations daily. Let's be fiscally responsible if we are going to try to stop the behavior.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 21, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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You only feel that way because the dangerous sport you happen to live for is legal in Yosemite.
I'm a hypocrit too.. but I have my limits.
I've broken the law many times to ski or climb where or when I felt I should be allowed to. Much of that in Yosemite due to camping restrictions. Plenty of out of bounds skiing, climbing without a permit some times.
I don't feel one bit bad about it. Always public lands..I do respect private property a bit more.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 21, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Climbski, I can't speak for Moof but I'm living proof that climbing is foolproof.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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I'm not suggesting it's particularly practical to have rangers on cliffs, I'm just suggesting that lurking in the meadow to catch jumpers after the jump seems kinda lame? All it's doing is increasing risk (dusk jumping) not stopping jumping.
Is the plan to stop jumping, or is it just to arrest people?
I'm surprised to see people who now seem anti base or anti proxy flying in Yosemite after the 300 post thread which was basically "YOLO, a life well lived". I'm confused.
Honestly I don't see why NPS says base is dangerous, but allows soloing? Is the anti base/anti skydiving based on danger to the person doing the activity? Is it based on the nuisance factor to other park goers? What is the official NPS reason for the ban?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 21, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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Reilly
lol.. ! I resemble that remark.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 21, 2015 - 10:06am PT
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Honestly I don't see why NPS says base is dangerous, but allows soloing? Is the anti base/anti skydiving based on danger to the person doing the activity? Is it based on the nuisance factor to other park goers? What is the official NPS reason for the ban?
It has nothing to do with danger but due to a phrase in the legal wording of the mission of the NPS.
"To preserve traditional usage of the land" Or something like that. Climbing was established decades before the NPS in these lands and therefore is grandfathered in. The NPS can't legally stop it. Although they can make reasonable rules about how it can be done.
Since that is not the case with flying sports they don't have to allow it and so for the most part they don't.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 21, 2015 - 10:10am PT
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Well put, Dave. What I have called soloing Dean Potter would have called hiking.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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May 21, 2015 - 10:11am PT
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How many cliffs?
#of cliffs=finite
#of exit points=infinite
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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May 21, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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I'm surprised to see people who now seem anti base or anti proxy flying in Yosemite after the 300 post thread which was basically "YOLO, a life well lived". I'm confused.
I'd like to think that people had more class than express their anti-BASE opinions on threads dedicated to remembering the people who lost their lives. Not really the appropriate place IMO.
Personally, I can't understand how one could be anti-BASE while still supporting climbing in NP's. In the eyes of the average person/legislator they really are not all that different. Just different forms of frivolous, dangerous, thrill seeking death-wishers that place a burden on the American tax-payer. Read any of the comments section of a new-thread after any climbing accident, and you'll see this attitude. It's a slippery slope to ban one "dangerous" activity...just a matter of time before others are included.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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May 21, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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It could be more of keeping the skies clear than specifically being anti-base. There used to be an airstrip in Yosemite a very long time ago, and now the regulations don't permit flight below 2,000 feet above the highest point. Is that a good thing? Although I'm a pilot and would love to fly feet from the walls of Half Dome, down into the valley and past El Cap, down the Merced, its probably a good thing I can't do that. I can't even do it with the power off at dusk and hope to get away with it.
If they allow non-powered flight and it got popular as it probably would eventually get, the valley would be a different place. Perhaps like the New River Gorge they could allow it once a year or more. And if they do that, every five years they could allow planes and jets to buzz the valley! Yeehaw!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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May 21, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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Add controls, legalize it, and let it evolve..
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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May 21, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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Hang-gliding is legal in the park for at least a few days a year from Glacier Point.
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John M
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 11:10am PT
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trying to police every cliff every day would be highly impractical. Each cliff can be hours of hiking away. Just like trying to stop all speeding in the park is impractical.
I hope that they legalize some form of base jumping on specific days like they do hang gliding. I love watching the gliders in the park.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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Is the plan to stop jumping, or is it just to arrest people?
It's NOT the governments job to be our daddy's and define what behaviors are allowed or not allowed! Their job strictly is that of a referee to regulate the harms done by said behaviors against the environment. "Environment" including nature and people.
Example being, we have video of a cop telling a Base jumper poised atop a bridge, "If you jump you will be arrested". The Baser asked "your not arresting me now?", then jumped.
Government needs to be reminded daily of what their job is!
They have not a lawfull argument, or right discriminating against all Base jumping on public lands, parks.
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