Leaders Get Prority.

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 4, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
Did you actually have any fun on the rte after being such a dick?

There's ur lesson


Edit. Right on:-) jus play'in with the dick thing
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
I'd like to revise my response and say that I totally agree with your ethical perspective and you handled the situation perfectly :-)

We both know that's not entirely true... Lol

"Viet Nam is over, why would I want to stay in Canada?"

Lol. Authority hates a smart ass..

Blue- I felt bad, so obviously i could have handled it better.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
May 4, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
You and Sandra need to work out a little routine where you make weird faces and wave your arms around and make funny noises while Sandra does the circle around the ear thing with her finger. Just good clean fun.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
We're loco! Don't mess with us! ;)

Ron- Yes I agree. I could have been nicer and still made my point however.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
May 4, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
maybe challenged them to a break dance grudge match, pushing sandra forward to raise enough dust they turned tail cause i know your back's a little tender. come to think of it a sterling lead might have had the same effect
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 4, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
Gosh, this is a very regular occurrence in the Gunks. A knife fight usually settles things.

Yeah I've seen it happen. Like gang-roping Strictly from Nowhere or Something Interesting and people are too nice to say anything.
Never seen a knife fight though.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 4, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
The Wolf city judge awards a "Dick minus" for delivery, but you were in the right.
The other team gets a "full dick" for tedious passive aggressive behavior, but gets extra credit for actually getting out of your face and leaving, stupid wankers. they would not have made the crack a happier place to be.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 4, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
On second thought, never, ever, ever, ever back down.

In fact, double down.

Yes, that's the productive way to handle things.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
Ron- you may be right. I do see a lot of bad behaviour these days which i believe can be attributed to simple lack of mentorship. I really like what you said to your manager. I used to hate wondering if i'd gotten the job.

Nwo- Yeah, the bluffs are getting crazy. Penny lane is a great winter crag, which means we've been there a lot. Sandra has Up-Up and Away on her list though, soon to be followed by Clandestine Affair and Penny Lane i'm sure. Her mental process is really improving, her climbing skill far outweighs her confidence but we're working on it.

Hooblie- lol next time breakdance grudge match 4 sure!

Jaybro- Passive aggressive indeed. I apologized after and gave them a bunch of beta on spots to go find some easy stuff, so hopefully we smoothed it over and they got the message.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 4, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
Another party rocked up and started sussing out the wall, so I threw my rope down in front of a 5.6 to claim it.

It sounds like you were there first and had the rope out. Not even a question. If however there was another party sussing out the wall and you showed up there may be a question, but still having your rope out still gets dibs. And agreed it's often better to politely work it out.

The whole leader gets priority is a joke, I can't believe that's in a guidebook. As asked earlier if someone's top roping something they are supposed to come off so someone can lead it? If someone politely asked if I was TRing if they could lead through I'd say yes (has never happened to me but I've traded laps on each others TRs before) but for it to be expected or demanded, sorry ain't gonna happen and I wouldn't demand it.

I feel you with your partner letting others pass, and good call correcting the situation. Twice my partners have let other parties pass, without consulting with me, and both times we got stuck behind slower parties and it sucked. Sitting at each hanging belay for an hour gets old and we had to bail off a wall because of it after trudging our gear up and not having an extra day to wait it out. F that.

A number of times people have asked to pass and said they are really fast, and I say sorry, no we're really fast too. And they act all put out. And each time we just end up pulling away from them farther each pitch. I'm not a very good climber, but I'm typically fast on the climbs I do.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
If someone politely asked if I was TRing if they could lead through I'd say yes (has never happened to me but I've traded laps on each others TRs before) but for it to be expected or demanded, sorry ain't gonna happen and I wouldn't demand it.

I've done this many times. Usually after climbing every other route within my range at the crag.
People are typically cool with it, and i never EXPECT anything from them.

Your rope is on the climb? All yours, fair game, but if someone else is clearly waiting to lead the climb, asks nicely and you refuse, then continue to gang bang the climb with no concern for others who would like to climb it, I call bullsh!t.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
You were right....don't sweat their indignation. I only hope they learned something.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 4, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
no concern for others who would like to climb it, I call bullsh!t.

Agreed. And climbing "schools" are typically the worst offender. Sadly they are teaching people this is ok.

Actually thinking about Leader gets priority, I do see if a tie breaker is needed the leading party should go first because they will typically be quicker.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
Actually thinking about Leader gets priority, I do see if a tie breaker is needed the leading party should go first because they will typically be quicker.

Yes! Plus going ground up has always been considered the ultimate goal in climbing, no?

Edit

And climbing "schools" are typically the worst offender. Sadly they are teaching people this is ok.

Yes! The local Vancouver Outdoor Club has days where they take over crags, but typically they try and pull ropes for leaders, to show students that it is indeed a shared resource that cannot be monopolized by one party alone.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
May 4, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
Mike with respect to the ethics of it - I think what you're saying, both by the reason you gave the topropers and the title of your thread, is that leaders are ethically entitled to have priority over topropers - that all things being equal, leaders should be privileged over topropers. What I'm so bad at saying is that I think that's just the way human ethics work. We want to be privileged and also to believe that the reason that we're privileged is because that's the ethical way for things to be.

going ground up has always been considered the ultimate goal in climbing

For me, sure, in the same way that one might ethicize that we should disadvantage gay marriage because procreation has always been the ultimate goal in marriage :-) We're just being humans in all our wackiness of beliefs and behaviors.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
May 4, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
You are worried that you're a dick? You need to hang with my posse.

Sometimes in JT the top-ropers will take over a whole row of climbs, ropes hanging everywhere but they're all on one climb. That happened to me up in Rock Garden a while ago. I walked up to the base of one of the unoccupied roped routes. I was just gonna flip the rope to the side and climb.

"Hey, we're doing that one!"

So I stood there looking straight at the guy as I pulled his rope. I thought his head was gonna explode. We did the route in about 4 minutes. My friend trailed their cord, we set it back up for them and rapped on it. I wanted to pull it again when we were down but my buddy restrained me.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
When I do Splitter Camps at Indian Creek I will keep a top rope going only until another party shows up to do the climb. I offer them a ride or, if they are there to lead the climb, I promptly pull the rope.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
May 4, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
So I stood there looking straight at the guy as I pulled his rope. I thought his head was gonna explode. We did the route in about 4 minutes. My friend trailed their cord, we set it back up for them and rapped on it. I wanted to pull it again when we were down but my buddy restrained me.

Bwaahahaha. I've seen that at JT as well. People lacing up a crag with top ropes and claiming ownership all day.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
Mike with respect to the ethics of it - I think what you're saying, both by the reason you gave the topropers and the title of your thread, is that leaders are ethically entitled to have priority over topropers - that all things being equal, leaders should be privileged over topropers. What I'm so bad at saying is that I think that's just the way human ethics work. We want to be privileged and also to believe that the reason that we're privileged is because that's the ethical way for things to be.

I see what you're saying and I agree with the premise that I am certainly no better than any other person simply because I have obtained a small proficiency in a skill that they have yet to master.

In the climbing game however there is considerably more risk in leading a climb, so I think people who are not yet at that level should respect that the person is willing to take the risk and be supportive of their efforts by simply choosing one of the other easy climbs (5.7 and 5.9) that are readily available 5 feet in either direction, and not even try and say that they were there first.

Sandra chose to lead the seven instead because she said she would leave the six for them and then proceeded to have a stinker on it.



I would have enjoyed watching that.

Hell I enjoyed reading it! Lol Thanks Ksolem!


When I do Splitter Camps at Indian Creek I will keep a top rope going only until another party shows up to do the climb. I offer them a ride or, if they are there to lead the climb, I promptly pull the rope.

The Master shows how it's done. Thanks Jim!


Bwaahahaha. I've seen that at JT as well. People lacing up a crag with top ropes and claiming ownership all day.

It's a common practice here too John. I would love to have Ksolem's balls, but i'm just too damn nice.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
I agree, though, with what John M and Pyro say. "We won't be long. Would like us to set up your top-rope when we get to the top?" really means, "No, you can't go before we do the climb." The difference in tone between the two approaches, however, can result in vastly different levels of hostility and, perhaps, remorse.

John. I didn't miss this, but thought i should reply to it on review. I agree entirely and tact is a skill i am certainly still developing... Lol

Thanks for the lesson.
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