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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
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Tragic to say the least.
My condolences to all affected.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
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Saying the evil co-pilot deleted his facebook page a few days ago.
Should our girl friends be notified when we ask to have our posts on ST deleted? Or we post to
"What is mind"?
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jstan
climber
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:46pm PT
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No. You are just a real climber.
My condolences.
Mind you. Condolences are appropriate either way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
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Can someone remind us, the local time, morning, noon, evening? the plane was brought down?
.....
From NBC... 10:31am...
So it was clear skies mid-morning, passengers would've seen the final minutes.
Below... Thanks for the info, Mike.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 26, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
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if there is such a thing...
There is. Recall the guy who climbed the clocktower at that college many years ago and shot dead all those people before he was killed.
He had left a note that his brain should be examined. It was and they found a tumor in a critical area.
It's now a classic in abnormal psych, the science of evil and moral science.
The magic of google / wikipedia....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
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Thanks for the article Phyl. This is scary.
Over time the automation will expand to handle in-flight failures and emergencies, and as the safety record improves, pilots will gradually be squeezed from the cockpit altogether. The dynamic has become inevitable. There will still be accidents, but at some point we will have only the machines to blame.
It would seem fairly simple to have the autopilot examine the gps data and determine it was on a crash course. Obviously this would increase the automation but least the pilot couldn't use the autopilot to crash the plane. I would imagine it would be easier to watch the plane crash than actually steer it into the mountain.
Edit for hcfs from the op:
“Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55, we can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet,” FlightRadar24 posted in a forum on its site, adding that nine seconds later, “the aircraft started to descend, probably with the ‘open descent’ autopilot setting.”
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 26, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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Automated systems can still be overcome by determined competent individuals bent on destruction. Hell if it was a drone it would be even easier for a person to drive it into the ground cause it would not kill them. There is no imaginable perfect system. These murder suicide issues are rare enough as to not be worth worrying about by me. A two person in the cockpit rule is perhaps the only change that should be made by German regulations. Yet even that is not a perfect solution.
As a side note Mike..NASA has developed a good working system for terrain avoidance that is really cool. It is called The Automatic Ground-Collision Avoidance System. The military is beginning to instal them and it is being modified for use via smartphone for private pilots.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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There you go. Cool video dude!
Thanks!
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
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In the last 71 years there have been approx 7,481 instances of pilots
suiciding in their planes.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
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^^^^Link?
If that's true, that's pretty impressive.
This guy wasn't simply offing himself. He was making some kind of a statement.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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Some have been prevented through heroic efforts.
#
Tokkō Tai, Divine Wind, 7,465 pilots take off and die on suicide war
missions, 3,048 Allied sailors die on ships they attacked. 1944-45.
Pacific Airlines Flight 773 - 44 die onboard. Oblivious ground crew let
suicidal passenger onboard with a .357 magnum who rushes into the
cockpit, shoots unarmed pilot & co-pilot causes crash. 1964
26 September 1976 – 12 fatalities
A Russian pilot stole an Antonov 2 airplane directed his aircraft into the
block of flats in Novosibirsk where his divorced wife lived.
22 August 1979 – 4 fatalities
A 23 year old male mechanic who had just been fired entered a hangar at
Bogotá Airport, Colombia and stole a military HS-748 transport plane. He
took off and crashed the plane in a residential area.
Aeroflot Flight 593 - 75 die onboard. Pilot allowed his teenage children
to sit in cockpit. No one noticed them flip the wrong switches causing
the crash. 1994
21 August 1994 – 44 fatalities
A Royal Air Maroc ATR-42 airplane crashed in the Atlas Mountains shortly
after takeoff from Agadir, Morocco. The accident caused by the captain
disconnecting the autopilot and directing the aircraft to the ground
deliberately.
SilkAir Flight 185 - 104 die onboard. Pilot had million dollar gambling
debt. 1997
EgyptAir Flight 990 - 217 die onboard. Co-pilot turns off engines.
Chants allah akbar 1999.
11 October 1999 – 1 fatality
An Air Botswana captain who had been grounded for medical reasons took off
in an ATR-42. He made several demands over the radio and finally stated
he was going the crash the plane. He caused the plane to crash into two
parked ATR-42 aircraft on the platform at Gaborone Airport, Botswana.
9-11
American Airlines Flight 11 - 88 die onboard, 1000+ died north tower World
Trade Center.
United Airlines Flight 175 - 60 die onboard, 1000+ died south tower World
Trade Center.
American Airlines Flight 77 - 64 die onboard, 125 died in the Pentagon
2001.
United Airlines Flight 93 - 44 die onboard
Air Canada Boeing 767 - co-pilot tried to crash jet, Pilot, crew and some
passengers won the fight to remove him from the cockpit before disaster.
Many injured lands safely. 2008
JetBlue Flight 191 - Pilot 'storms' out of cockpit for bathroom break.
Co-pilot locks him out. Pilot acting crazy, pounds on door to get back
in, shouting 'you better start praying'.
Passenger restrains him with choke hold.
Jet lands safely w 135 passengers and six crew members. 2012
Mozambique Airlines Flight TM470 - all 33 died onboard the Embraer190 a
100+seat jet. Pounding on the cockpit door heard on cockpit voice recorder
before crash; 2013
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 - all 239 presumed dead, Never found. 2014
Germanwings Flight 9525 - 150 died onboard. Pounding on cockpit door
heard before crash 2015
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
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"7,465 pilots take off and die on suicide war missions"
Aww, c'mon now...that's a little different, isn't it?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
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There is another aspect of this that you are all forgetting. For lack of a better term, I'll call it the Wal-Mart Syndrome. Why? Because it reminds me of the tendency of people to buy the cheapest version of whatever it is they're looking for, and then complain when what they bought breaks, or doesn't work well.
Think about this: When was the last time you went looking for an airfare that wasn't the cheapest you could find? Multiply your desire for the cheapest airfare by about a billion others looking for the same thing, and you have a market in which airlines can only survive by cutting costs ruthlessly.
One of those costs is labor. Another is training.
Another is equipment. How many airlines do you think go to Boeing or Airbus and say "Price is irrelevant. We want the absolute safest airplane you can make."?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
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Well, in this consumer-capitalist-socialist country, we want the cheapest flight we can find and assume the nanny state will make sure we get there alive. Seems pretty reasonable to me....
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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controlled flight into terrain
I assisted with Navy jet aircraft crash investigations back in the 1980s.
At the time, the Navy attack jets used a terrain-following radar for all-weather, day/night bombing runs.
During crash investigations we often found that, at the time of the crash, control surfaces were neutral and the throttle was at cruise.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
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Obviously none of you knew who was on board for this event to be made to happen ......
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John Burns
climber
Pothole, Utah
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
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Obviously none of you knew who was on board for this event to be made to happen ......
Right, I don't. Care to share?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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A Russian pilot stole an Antonov 2 airplane directed his aircraft into the
block of flats in Novosibirsk where his divorced wife lived.
Clearly, pilots should be prohibited from marrying.
Btw, I've quite a few hours in AN-2's. They're flying tanks.
You have to deliberately crash them to damage them.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 26, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
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Well, in this consumer-capitalist-socialist country, we want the cheapest flight we can find and assume the nanny state will make sure we get there alive.
The "nanny state" in North America, Western Europe, and first-World Asia is the only thing that does keep you alive when you fly.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
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dave729,
Interesting list.
Very clever with the kamikaze pilots the vast majority!
They, like the 911 and other hijackers, don't count if we are looking at originally designated pilots on commercial flights.
So it's really the 5 in the CNN list for that category, plus the new one.
Malaysia Airlines 370 is a probable, but a judgement call since there is not much data.
Including the "close calls" was definitely relevant to this event.
The numbers might be bumped up a bit by including small planes, but with fewer witnesses, those could be harder to classify as intentional. (and they don't match the commercial flight category)
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