Suicide by Airbus???

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zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Mar 30, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
Ward, I took a quick look at your reference. I'll look more carefully later.

However, there is nothing in the article that indicates that had these folks not been taking "psychoactive" compounds they would not have killed the people they killed.

It's a hypothesis worth testing, but I don't see anyone doing it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Apr 2, 2015 - 08:42am PT
Of the 7,244 fatal airplane crashes in the United States from 1993 through 2012, 24 were the result of aircraft-assisted suicide, the authors concluded in the 2014 study published in the journal "Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine."


That's 0.33 percent, and they noted that most of these flights were private, not commercial.


Did they check 'em for drugs? I do not know.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/germanwings-crash-pilots-commit-aircraft-assisted-suicide/story?id=29932202
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 2, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Germanwings Co-Pilot Researched Suicide Methods, Cockpit Security:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/02/andreas-lubitz-suicide-methods_n_6992420.html
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 2, 2015 - 10:54am PT
An important point is that clinically depressed people contemplating suicide do NOT become psychotic/murdering psychopaths without some major external influence such as a very bad reaction (already documented) to modern psych meds to "treat" this.

So the fact that he was simply depressed cannot explain the mass-murder of 140 people.

Depression generally does not = psychosis.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 2, 2015 - 10:57am PT
That is utter bullsh#t. Meds do not turn people into murderers. If so, produce the studies that indicate this.

You won't. There are none.
WBraun

climber
Apr 2, 2015 - 10:57am PT
What they are not ever saying anywhere (at least I haven't seen it) is how many flights has he been in the cockpit so far this year?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 2, 2015 - 11:55am PT
Perhaps the copilot had a couple of merctinis prior to the flight and they affected his judgement.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 2, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
What Drugs Was Andreas Lubitz On? Lorazepam, Antidepressants Could Have Affected Germanwings Pilot

http://www.ibtimes.com/what-drugs-was-andreas-lubitz-lorazepam-antidepressants-could-have-affected-1867744


Apparently, it was strong anti-psychotic cocktail that would not be approved in the US.

Medical records indicate that Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot who crashed the Germanwings plane last week in the French Alps, was on medications for depression, anxiety and panic attacks, including lorazepam, a tranquilizer that can have dangerous side effects, German newspaper Bild reported. Federal drug information advises that “patients receiving lorazepam should be warned not to operate dangerous machinery or motor vehicles” and that “in patients with depression, a possibility for suicide should be borne in mind.”

Lubitz, 27, was also reportedly taking an antidepressant, Reuters reported. He lied to his doctors, saying that he was taking sick leave rather than working and flying planes. When he resumed pilot training in 2009, he provided medical papers showing a “previous episode of severe depression,” Lufthansa, the parent company of Germanwings, confirmed Tuesday.

Lorazepam is a drug that is typically prescribed to treat anxiety that works by “slowing activity in the brain to allow for relaxation,” according to an information page by the National Institutes of Health. The NIH warned that the drug can be “habit-forming,” or addictive, and should not be stopped suddenly, as doing so can cause “anxiousness, sleeplessness, and irritability.” There are a host of side effects, including restlessness and blurred vision.

The Food and Drug Administration’s drug information page for Ativan, a brand name for lorazepam, noted that the drug’s effectiveness for long-term use -- a period defined as more than four months -- has yet to be clinically assessed. It remains unclear how long Lubitz had taken the drug. The FDA warned that “pre-existing depression may emerge or worsen during use of benzodiazepines [a class of tranquilizer drugs that includes Valium and Xanax], including lorazepam.” It highlighted as well that lorazepam can have an even more depressive effect depending on what other drugs are taken simultaneously. Brand names for lorazepam include Ativan and Lorazepam Intensol.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 2, 2015 - 01:42pm PT
Anybody who takes a cellfie in his bathroom and posts it on an Italian website
should have his pilot's license jerked immediately.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 2, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
That is utter bullsh#t. Meds do not turn people into murderers. If so, produce the studies that indicate this.

You won't. There are none.

I've seen it with my own two eyes... Don't need any studies unfortunately...

And it's common knowledge that tiny chemical changes CAN induce violence and psychosis. PCP/Meth/etc.... So how is it a stretch to accept that these "legal" drugs, which have produced suicides and other horrible side affects by their own admissions, could also trigger violence?



Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 2, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
Here's the thing about these meds. Every individual reacts very differently to each drug. On top of that many of these drugs are prescribed for different reasons. Craig mentioned Lorazepam, a benzodiapine also known as atavan. This drug is often prescribed as a backup for seizure disorders, in other words if you get enough advance warning (called aura) taking lorazepam/atavan might prevent the seizure. It is also used as a relaxant, My mom is in the hospital now with a brain bleed. She gets frantic and rips out her IV etc. The atavan settles her down. Some people are profoundly affected by this drug, others not so much. And in all cases it's effect becomes less the longer you take it.

To manage the use of these kinds of meds there must be a partnership between the neurologist and the patient. Most of the time the doctor prescribes the drugs, and it's over in terms of follow up unless the patient takes the initiative to follow up.

aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 2, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
This guy told his girlfriend he'd do something so that he'd be remembered, that everyone would know who he was. Although meds may contribute, that specific train of thought and where it led him, he's ultimately responsible for that.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 2, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
I agree that he is 100% responsible and anyone who paints him as a victim in this is off the rails. My comments about the meds are a sideline. These drugs help a lot of people, and this should not be lost in the argument.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 3, 2015 - 05:18am PT
no Fear, you havent. you may have seen psychotics episodes, but you have no way of knowing what caused them. thats what science does, aint youve got none to back you up. and no, PCP isnt what we're talking about here. or glue huffing. irrelevant.

my guess from your posts is that you're unqualified to make any call in this arena. you dont understand these diseases nor their treatments. you're parroting a common myth is all. A dangerous one, unfortunately - so you've chosen to become part of the problem - ignorance.

this kind of ignorance does real damage to people with mental illness who need help. medication, while far from perfect, is often part of that help.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 07:23am PT
Maybe in hindsight this tragic murder/suicide was preventable, but in real time Lubitz hid his symptoms too well.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Come on, Bubbles, you don't come across so mean spirited when you're on "Trailer Park Boys".
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:47am PT
Damn you, Brennan! You know I wouldn't be able to leave the house without watching that
and now I'm off on an 850 mile road trip with "F*#k, Ricky!" on an endless tape loop in my head!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 3, 2015 - 09:46am PT
no Fear, you havent. you may have seen psychotics episodes, but you have no way of knowing what caused them. thats what science does, aint youve got none to back you up. and no, PCP isnt what we're talking about here. or glue huffing. irrelevant.

Tvash, go read the insert for any modern SSRI/anti-psychotic. It had been proven by "science". Proven so much that the manufacturer has included a black label warning for their own meds. It's exactly the same thing Phillip Morris has done for their own products without as much media fanfare.

Next you'll say cigarettes don't cause cancer right? Well, there's no proof. Maybe they already had cancer. Lots of people smoke and don't get it.

In my case it was a simple correlation to removing the medication from both the cases I personally witnessed and both people slowly returned to 100% normalcy within a few months. One variable.

These meds are handed out like candy by doctors who want a quick fix to make the patient go away. There is often little to no followup or advice given other than, "If you find yourself wanting to stuff a plane into a mountain, call your doctor immediately"



Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 3, 2015 - 10:28am PT
One variable, Fear - in the complex life of a person? SSRI's have the same warning labels as cigarettes? Do you know anything at all about depression?

You really can't make this stuff up.

Keep your day job.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 3, 2015 - 10:37am PT
Is wasn't Just the anti-depressants, it was a combination of drugs, mostly it was the Benzedrine type drug which gave him aggression and an intoxicated feeling like being drunk.

“Even at normal doses, taking psychiatric drugs can produce suicidal thinking, violent behavior, aggressiveness, extreme anger, hostility, irritability, loss of ability to control impulses, rage reactions, hallucinations, mania, acute psychotic episodes, akathisia, and bizarre, grandiose, highly elaborated destructive plans, including mass murder.

“Withdrawal from psychiatric drugs can cause agitation, severe depression, hallucinations, aggressiveness, hypomania, akathisia, fear, terror, panic, fear of insanity, failing self-confidence, restlessness, irritability, aggression, an urge to destroy and, in the worst cases, an urge to kill.” – From Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter # 296: “Drug Studies Connecting Psychotropic Drugs with Acts of Violence”.

Hey smoking dick, this is what the investigators are telling us.
Messages 181 - 200 of total 215 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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