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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 26, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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I posted this on MP in the Southern Utah section, thought I'd share here also.
NPS has published a proposal to start requiring day use permits for the White Rim as well as Elephant Hill Rd in the Needles. They're proposing 50 permits per day for vehicles and 50 for bicycles for the White Rim Road. It is not clear whether this would affect Mineral Bottom and Taylor Canyon.
Comment period ends Apr 14.
See news release and make comments at
News Release
From the link:
Comments regarding this day use permit proposal may be submitted electronically by clicking on the attached news release and selecting the Comment Now button. If comments are not able to be made via this website they may be sent to: National Park Service, Southeast Utah Group, Attn: Planning and Compliance Coordinator, 2282 S. West Resource Blvd, Moab, Utah 84532. Faxed comments may be sent to (435) 719-2300.
There are a number of routes off the White Rim that can be done as day climbs, e.g. Washer Woman, Monster Tower, Chip and Dale, etc. from camps outside the White Rim. I'm not against day permits but this could be an impediment to early starts for these towers. Maybe they could write in an exception for climbers or provide some alternate accommodation.
Thoughts?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 26, 2015 - 10:20am PT
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Guess I have mixed feelings about this. My interest in White Rim is mostly cycling, not climbing.
And one of the best things about doing White Rim in a day on a bike is that you didn't need to deal with any permit issues.
But one of the best things about the White Rim is a wilderness feel. If traffic is growing so much that goes away, then maybe permits are the way to go.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 26, 2015 - 10:27am PT
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Traffic there has really picked up. This may not be a bad idea.
Mineral Bottom and the Horsethief Trail are not in the park and so wouldn't be affected.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Mar 26, 2015 - 10:39am PT
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I think it is a good idea. I've ridden it a bunch of times, one, two and three day trips. The traffic last year was pretty bad, especially the weekends before and after Jeep week.
Edit: I was just referring to vehicles. Bikes aren't an issue.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 26, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Gack. I can understand if the White Rim is so popular now the NPS want a better handle on what and who is down there. And 50 vehicles a day down there is a hell of a lot. Potentially, that does suck for climbers. Even more than the existing byzantine regulations.
"No fee will be charged for these day use permits during the 2015-2016 seasons. Payment of the park entrance fee is required for day use and will be collected with permits issued online or at the time of entrance to the park for walk in permits. Annual Passes, Military Passes, Senior Passes, and Access Passes will be honored for entrance."
This'll mean that either one has to plan way ahead for climbing Moses/Monster Tower, etc, or rely on the online system. Their current system of permits, if you need one, requires showing up in person at the ranger station, which sucks because they don't open early.
How much this new regulation will sucks depends on the details of the online system. If they have an online system that dispenses the permit right away (if a permit is available) then that's going to be OK, as long as, if one already has the yearly pass, one is allowed to drive the White Rim without having to make an appearance at the ranger station first. Otherwise, if one has to appear at the ranger station before any drive down there, it will really suck.
I've spent many great trips climbing towers accessible from the White Rim, it's a shame how challenging it is to deal with the red tape just to access the place. The regulations are all designed around bikers and what they want. For years, bikers have booked all the campgrounds months ahead. Now, most likely, they (and the jeep renting/guiding outfits in Moab) will take all the day permits, too.
Good article in the Moab paper, thanks driver.
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Oldfattradguy2
Trad climber
Here and there
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Mar 26, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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My comments as a bicyclist:
I do not support the plan for the following reasons:
The NPS has not specified a data-driven "Need" as defined by NEPA for permitting single day use bicycles.
NPS has not demonstrated that single day use bicycles have had a significant impact on park ecology.
Single day use bicycles do not have a significant impact on park user experience. In addition all encounters that I have had with other park users while riding the White Rim in a day have always been positive. Meeting single day riders may actually enhance the experience of other park users.
Impacts from day use cycling are minimal as demonstrated by the fact that bicycles cause minimal disturbance to the roads when compared to other users. Due to time constraints, most day single day riders are less likely to impact off trail resources than other users.
The White Rim Road is a road, not a wilderness setting, it is an ideal place to encourage and concentrate bicycle use. If NPS wants to simulate a wilderness setting, it should consider not allowing motorized vehicles.
Most single day riders plan their trip based on weather and quite often spontaneously. Requiring a permit would place an undue burden on this activity.
Most of the typically inexpensive permits would be purchased in advance. Day cycling permits would likely be inexpensive enough that people would just buy them up if they think they even might use them. With essentially no incentive to cancel, many permits will surely go unused and many who would otherwise actually go wouldn’t be able to get a permit. Picking up a no-show permit isn’t practical because of the early start required to do a single day ride.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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I've ridden portions of the White Rim as a day user, and the whole thing on overnights. I don't see day use cyclists being a big concern. Most cannot get very far for a round trip, maybe to Lathrop Canyon or Airport Tower. Those who can do it in a day, well good for them.
Crunch, you captured my concerns re planning and doing towers down there. I'm thinking they should provide some sort of self-registration for those doing dawn starts and not count them towards their limit. Climbers vehicles are just going to be sitting beside the road somewhere most of the day.
I looked at the park map, and while Horsethief and Mineral Bottom are outside the boundary, you have to drive a couple miles of what appears to be labelled the White Rim Rd inside the park to get to Taylor Canyon, which is also inside the park. They need to clarify whether Taylor Canyon gets thrown into the mix.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 26, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
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If I have to do extra work to be able to get out on the White Rim (in a motorized vehicle), I'd say make the resulting experience worth the extra trouble and expense by charging *MORE* for permits. Let the cost of the permit be what basically sets the quota. Really, I don't think it would take much - 20-30 bucks is nothing compared to the costs of driving in from SLC or the Front Range. Bicycle day trips should be free and unregulated, they're not the problem.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 26, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
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The problem is probably neither climbers or Rim-in-a-day cyclists. It's more four-wheelers, and there has been definite growth in guided bike trips.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 26, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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Gotta think about this. Managing mpact in general is good, especially for those for whom the whole trip is driving esp, through driving. There are all sorts of logistical quagmires for climbers though. I've had two spur of the moment climbing jaunts into the WR this month that weird office hours would have negated, though they perhaps would have worked with a servicable online permit system
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 27, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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Yeah, it would suck to remove the spontaneous availability of Moses.
There is still plenty left in the Labyrinth though. Has anybody even repeated Horsethief Tower? It is a cool 3 pitch 5.10 that can be accessed by canoe from north of the park.
I think technically it is in Glen Canyon Nation Recreation Area.
Time to head to the back of beyond, Canyonlands' third district, go look for George Hayduke in the Maze,...
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