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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 17, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
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I'm starting a new thread about Scott Sederstrom's accident, so we can keep the condolences in the original thread and discussions on the bolt failure here. The original thread is http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2594185/accident-in-owens-gorge
I just heard from Dan McDevitt, who investigated and replaced the broken bolt this morning with Marty Lewis.
The broken bolt was not a 3/8" 5-piece as everyone had been assuming. It was a 5/16" buttonhead which had snapped about 1/2" into the hole, and apparently it had cracked completely before the accident. When buttonheads are partially cracked, when they snap on removal and you look at the broken bolt, you can see a "rusty face" of the break plus a "clean new break" section of metal. This shows how much cracked a while back, vs what cracked during removal. Once Dan figured out what to look for, he managed to find the head of the bolt, and the entire face of the cracked bolt was rusted. This indicates that the bolt was probably broken completely through before the accident, and probably barely strong enough to hold the hanger on the wall, let alone a climber.
Dan said there were several moved bolts and old bolt holes higher on the route, and some opportunities for gear placements, so the best guess is that the 5/16" buttonhead was placed on lead, the route was probably led with fewer bolts than it has now, and it was re-engineered after the lead. They probably could not remove the 5/16". Most likely they did not even try - 5/16" buttonheads are typically very strong, and infamously difficult to remove.
Dan is driving down to town and will be sending close-up photos of the bolt, and I will post those as soon as I get them.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
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Greg, thanks for the information & for placing it on it's own thread.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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So did it look like the original report from R&I was accurate? Using a stick clip to move one quickdraw from one bolt to the next as he went up? Wouldn't that make any fall a factor 2? Not that it would matter if the bolt was already cracked all the way through. I didn't even realize this was something that people did...
Scott Sederstrom, 44, fell to his death on Friday, March 13 when a bolt failed on Life in Electric Larvae Land (5.10b) at Silent Pillar Wall, Owen’s River Gorge, outside of Bishop, California.
When Sederstrom did not return that evening, his fiancé drove to the lower gorge parking lot. She found his van and dog there. Inyo Country Search and Rescue began an organized search in the morning.
About an hour into the search, a family friend of Sedestrom’s found his body in the gorge. Sederstrom was on the ground, with an eight-foot loop of slack between the tie-in point on his harness and GriGri attached to his belay loop. A quickdraw was on the rope within the loop, and a bolt hanger, missing its bolt, was on the other end of the draw.
Sederstrom had a stick-clip attached to his harness. The evidence suggests that he was going bolt to bolt—unclipping the one below as he went—when the third bolt of the climb failed.
Sederstrom fell 25 to 30 feet to the ground, suffering trauma to his head. He was not wearing a helmet.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 17, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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Kinda scary since there's no way to inspect something like that.
If they do crack, is that generally an outcome of being pounded into the hole or just something that might happen after maybe having been fallen on a bunch?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Mar 17, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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Great thread idea. Thanks for starting it.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Mar 17, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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Boy this really sucks. That bolt was almost 25 years old. Thx for all of the info Marty, Dan, Greg.
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mhay
climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
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One thing the R&I article did not mention is that he also had a daisy and locker girthed to his harness. One possible description of what he was doing is that he would feed slack into his rope loop, stick-clip the loop of rope with quickdraw to the next bolt, jigger himself up on the 2:1 with the gri-gri. Once at the bolt he would daisy into the bolt, clear the rope out of the draw, and repeat. He was definitely not using standard rope-solo technique, and was relying on single bolts most of the time.
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Matt's
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
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thanks for the clarification-- so he was essentially going bolt-to-bolt, with the eventual goal of setting up a fixed line from the top?
I guess I'm trying to understand whether his system involved the use of an anchor or not.
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mhay
climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
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with the eventual goal of setting up a fixed line from the top?
That would be one explanation, and the one I happen to like the most, but of course it's just speculation.
EDIT: There was no bottom anchor.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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I remember seeing someone do exactly that at Smith without any backup system, stick clip his way up a 5.13 with a long stick-clip.
It's hard to say why buttonheads crack. Some folks have told me about "bad batches" of 1/4" (and maybe 5/16"?) that cracked easily. Maybe some of those folks will chime in with specifics from the late '80s/'90s? Think I heard that from Grant Hiskes, Kris Solem, and some others? Hope someone who knows will chime in.
Right now I'm trying to come up with a priority list of routes which are all (or mostly) 5/16" buttonheads that need to be replaced, so if anyone wants to add to the list please email me.
Actually, on second thought, how about I just start the list here. Some of the routes are pretty darn popular, and those will be top of the list. I know some climbing areas have loads. These are just a few off the top of my head:
Tuolumne -
East Cottage Dome -
Orange Plasma
Disintegration aka The Bulge
other(s)?
Fairview Dome -
Great Pumpkin, the only bolt at the pitch 1 anchor
Medlicott Dome -
Royal Flush (also has Leepers on the 5/16" buttonheads)
I think there are a lot at Courtright?
Also, 5/16" buttonheads were often added to old 1/4" anchors as the "one new bolt", and during replacement no one messed with the 5/16" - often replacing only one of the 1/4" with a stainless 3/8", then leaving the 5/16" (and removing & patching the other 1/4"). Think there might be an anchor or two like that on Stoner's Highway among others.
I think Roger Brown came up with a way to replace 5/16" buttonheads with 3/8" bolts without getting the hand drill stuck. I've always had problems and just moved to 1/2" or 12mm bolts (where there's enough rock that the bit doesn't easily get stuck, I found that it's easier to hand drill a slightly bigger bolt than to battle the stuck bit endlessly). But I rarely messed with 5/16" buttonheads after learning just how hard it is to remove them.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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Split shaft compression bolts are time bombs and should not be used as consequential anchors period even as big as 3/8".
Tortured metal makes for poor anchors and these things fail all the time so stop using them folks because it is a design flaw and not the result of any particular batch! They corrode and fail at the split because the metal has been stressed twice at that place and is under tension once the bolt is driven in.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
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Steve, do you know of 3/8" split-shaft failures?
There are some spots where those were somewhat popular. I think Greg Vernon was using those for replacement at the Needles (often with titanium hangers!)...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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Greg- When one of your guys tries to get the nut off of a 3/8" split shaft and the entire bolt shears off, I would count that as a failure. Putting a new hanger on an old split shaft bolt even if it doesn't shear of during the swap out is also a poor idea down the road.
Ed Leeper himself wrote an article proclaiming this type of anchor to be unsuitable for long term climbing applications even in the 3/8" size.
I think that you would hear about more failures if there were more of the 3/8" size out in service. I placed hundreds of them on stance thinking that I was doing the right thing for the long haul and was deeply disappointed to find out otherwise when I cleaned an unnecessary one on El Cap with two or three blows and discovered that most of the area across the top split was clearly corroded.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
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Thanks for the update Greg,
I can confirm that the details about the setup of the climbing gear posted on Rock and Ice are essentially correct. I am a member of Inyo SAR and investigated the scene of the incident with other very experienced members of the team.
his setup was-
tie-in at end of rope -> 8 feet of slack with a quickdraw and bolt hanger clipped to it -> grigri clipped to belay loop -> flaked rest of rope.
basically, he had a loop of rope between a tie in and a grigri, quite likely used as a 2:1 setup to pull himself up to the bolt he had stick clipped (My opinion). he had a stick clip holstered through a gear loop on his harness.
There was no upward pull anchor, and no rope running through the first two bolts which had quickdraws on them.
He had a minitraxion on his pack, but not on his harness. It seems very likely he was attempting to setup a fixed line to top rope solo (again, my opinion).
The way I see it, there are three things that went wrong in this incident:
1. Bolt failed
2. The aid climbing system he quite likely used was only into one bolt at a time (supported by the evidence, but impossible to know 100% for sure)
3. No helmet, who knows if it would have helped, but I can confirm that the the main injury was in an area that would have been covered by a helmet
The slight delay in getting this information out was to make sure the people who needed to know details got them before everyone else. We tried our best to make sure that was the case. We also wanted to coordinate with Greg and the ASCA to find out the condition of the failed bolt. There was no way to tell if the bolt had failed under bodyweight or by a short high-factor fall onto his ascending system. It now seems likely that the bolt could have failed under bodyweight.
-Frank Klein
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Matt's
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
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thanks for all the info-- sounds like a really freak accident! so sad...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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Just got these photos from Dan:
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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Thank you Greg for your post. Button heads scare me. I have found so many broken in the hole. Found one last season that broke when I just stepped on the hanger. I suspect that many of the broken ones are broke, or probably just cracked, during the hammering in. I think that Trad climbers really, as a whole, don't fall that much and that many of those damaged bolts out there have never been fallen on. When the 1/4" bolts started getting harder to find I started replacing 5/16" button heads in The Valley. Most are bomber but some pop right out. I have not yet found a broken 5/16" but I have only replaced one hard 5.13 sport route and all the 5/16" button heads were way bomber. Hangers were stamped DB.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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In response to the above query,
In about 1994 at Church Dome I led some steep sport rig on The Rectory, The Heretic maybe. On the way up I clipped the bolts. Lowering I cleaned the draws. The face is a tad beyond vertical so I'd kick away and grab the draw on the rebound. To my surprise one of the 3/8" buttonheads broke off when I grabbed the draw.
On inspection the break was right at the point where the shaft begins to split, there was no rust so I think it actually broke when I pulled out on it.
I've seen the fellow who set this route place other of the same bolts. He uses a big heavy hammer. My guess is that the holes are drilled straight making a lot of force needed to drive in the bolt. Holes for buttonheads need to be tapered for the first third or so by rocking the drill around. My guess is that repeated heavy blows began the process of work hardening.
Re "work hardening:"
Although the first few deformations imposed on metal by such treatment weaken it, its strength is increased by continued deformations.
Encyc. Brittanica.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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Interesting to see the rock spalled away around the hole. That almost certainty happened when the bolt was placed, because the mouth of the hole was not properly tapered.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
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Hard to believe that didn't just fall out as soon as he touched it
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
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WoW!
what a problem those old bolts can be.
thanks for the share greg!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
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Kris... re Church Dome failed 3/8 BH ..... IIRC is was on "Jacobs Ladder"...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
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Yeah, buttonheads spall certain rock types, my thought was that was from the first few taps when installing the bolt. Don't ever try them on limestone, instant big spalling.
I'm not sure on how the fractures happen. That 1/4" of mine that I replaced last year after a winter was cracked 95% of the way and broke with nearly zero force. But I had definitely hung on that bolt the year before (put up the route rope-solo), so it hadn't cracked instantly on installation. In that case it was in a water streak from a ledge, so I think freeze/thaw had a lot to do with it. But maybe it was cracked a little bit on installation, and the crack propagated over the winter.
The only other 1/4" of mine that did the same thing was cracked about 2/3 of the way through, but it was fairly remote and I replaced it last summer after 8 years on the rock. And I had not hung on that after placing it, so it could have been cracked upon installation.
You see lots of 1/4" that are cracked/break easily during replacement. Who knows how many were cracked when.
Another place where 3/8" split-shaft are somewhat common is steep sport routes at Pinnacles - threaded head split-shaft.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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Thanks to Dan and Marty for going out there today, that was a big service to the community.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:54pm PT
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Greg, I remember that that was the type of bolts still on La Bella Luna on Fairview as of last summer. Could be another candidate for replacement.
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Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
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There may be quite a lot of those 5/16 in Whitney Portal
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Mar 17, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
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I'd like to know if a rawl R marked bolt head or one of the fixe bunk ones.
photo maybe?????
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Sam Lightner, Jr
Social climber
WY
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Mar 17, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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Great thread Greg.
It is easy for us to forget that most of the time when we are on the 1st through 4th bolt we really only have one piece between us and the ground. This is especially the case with the "soft-catch".
In my mind, it actually doesn't matter what type of bolt it was, but more what the condition of the bolt was. Obviously it had held people before. It failed now. If it failed because of corrosion or stress corrosion cracking, then it shows that the gorge is not immune from this problem. If a climbing area on the lee side of the Sierras and the edge of one of the driest deserts in North America has corrosion, then everyplace has corrosion. Thus, we should replace everything that isn't SS. That is pretty much every bolt placed before 1995.
For what it's worth, I have replaced a few hundred bolts in the last two years, many of which were 5 piece galvanized from the late 80's and early 90's. Every one of them was heavily corroded, and 15 snapped off while I was unscrewing them.
Our 25 year old bolts are finished. We need to replace the whole country.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 17, 2015 - 03:15pm PT
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Thx Greg.
I'm hitting Courtright over Memorial Day weekend.
If you get any confirmed routes with 5/16ths around the reservoir I'll make an effort to replace. Might be able to recruit some others to help.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
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I'd like to know if a rawl R marked bolt head or one of the fixe bunk ones. Rawl ones were made both with the R and without. The era (1992) means it was definitely a Rawl as the Fixe ones did not show up for another 10-15 years?
Obviously it had held people before. Actually Sam, this spot in the Gorge is visited so rarely that it may never have been weighted by a climber. But as far as Our 25 year old bolts are finished. We need to replace the whole country. …I'm afraid that you are correct. In many places people are doing exactly that.
If you get any confirmed routes with 5/16ths around the reservoir I'll make an effort to replace. Might be able to recruit some others to help.
Thanks for the offer Munge. But I should warn you that you may regret the offer, 2 hours into trying to remove the very first one! The only 5/16" buttonhead that I pulled easily at Courtright was on Spring Dome and the rock was fractured below the hanger.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Mar 17, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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Sam, the catastrophic results of bolts 1-4 failing holds true for normal lead climbing but with proper techniques for aid soloing the failure of bolts 3 and 4 can result in safe falls.
Most people who stick clip aid solo their way up something will anchor to the ground or first bolt and backup to the second. They go in direct to each bolt and feed out slack to clip their rope to the next. This method will still result in you hitting the ground in the event of a failure of bolts 1-4, because you'll be sitting at bolt 2 with slack going up to and back from bolt 3.
What I proposed, which maybe you misunderstood on FB (it's not much higher brow than YouTube comments, maybe you were skimming), is for the climber to stick clip subsequent bolts with the other end of the rope, and ascend to each bolt while feeding out slack from their lead system. This has a few advantages: you get to bounce on the next bolt while you have a bolt at your waist and zero slack in the system, and you never go above a bolt without being clipped to the next one. This means that if a bolt blows at the worst moment (when you've ascended to it) you're belay is below it and the slack in the system (even with a touch of extra) doesn't exceed the distance between the bolts. Obviously, if bolt spacing at #3 is extreme, this can still result in a ground fall. It would also mean that the route is bolted in such a way that falling at bolt #3 without any bolt failure is not safe. However, there are many instances where this will not result in a ground fall even if bolt #2 blows. The disadvantage is that you need another ascender or you need to belay yourself on a clove hitch to free up the grigri for ascending. Not overly demanding for the safety tradeoff.
I share your concern with the current state of bolts worldwide. I have visited Cuba a couple of times and am now under the impression that the whole island needs to be rebolted. Still, I see this accident as a fall caused by a bolt failure and a ground fall caused by an inappropriate self belay system.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Mar 17, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
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Solem and Laeger and I put up lots of routes at Courtright with 5/16 button heads. I suspect most routes on Penstemon, Dusy and Voyager have 5/16 button head bolts.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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Sam Lightner said: ......"5 piece galvanized from the late 80's and early 90's. Every one of them was heavily corroded, and 15 snapped off while I was unscrewing them."
I had a steel 3/8" diameter Powers 5 piece snap off trying to just UNSCREW it. Saw a tad bit of rust on the head, I had installed it no more than 5 years previously, so thought I'd replace it with stainless which I had a lot of at the time. It had rusted so badly internally in just a few years, that the (not visible) threads were rusted in place and it snapped right where the threads meet the body. I was shocked. I think the 5 piece steel are ticking time bombs.
As far as the Rawl split shanks. I have heard that back in the 70's I believe, they had a 1/4" diameter batch that missed both heat treat and QC and which had Hydrogen Embrittlement caused by electroplating. They were failing under little more than body weight. I have not been able to confirm that via the internet. In my view generally split shank construction bolts and tough little beasts with long lifes and good performance.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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But I prefer wedge bolts and have much more confidence in their placement integrity and longevity.
I have been placing one of each on anchors. 3/8sx3 3/4 double wedge SS from Fixe are the best bolt I've placed IMO.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 17, 2015 - 05:03pm PT
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So we re-learn the lesson from 1975??? Never trust one bolt with your life, unless your life depends on it.
sad thing this needed to be re-learned in 2015.
very sad.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Mar 17, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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Thought I'd comment on this quickly:
There may be quite a lot of those 5/16 in Whitney Portal
I'm inclined to think there may not be as many as one might expect. JW and I replaced over 500 bolts in the Portal (thanks entirely to ASCA! - Greg) That number is from the last detailed notes I could find quickly and is certainly under the total number actually replaced. Myles is still replacing in the Portal as well so that would add to the overall number.
Almost all the bolts we replaced in the Portal were 1/4", not many 5/16". It seems Bartlett and Slate (the most prolific early drillers) were inclined to predominately use 1/4", with 5/16" showing up mainly at Moonstone. Man I hated those 5/16".
I'm sure there are still some around in the Portal though, don't mean to sound like I'm saying there aren't any. Pick a route that hasn't been replaced and one might end up shaking in their boots.
One last comment. Replace enough bolts and you start to realize that it isn't all that uncommon to see this exact kind of failure. I've seen a number of them. Even if it was only 1 in 100 I don't like those odds.
Truly an unfortunate and sad accident.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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If Scott had his rope remain clipped into his lower bolts would he still have hit the ground when the bolt he was on broke?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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Werner, it seems very likely that if he had been clipped into the second bolt, either in direct, or through it with a lower upward pull anchor, he would not have hit the ground. It probably would not have been a great fall depending on how much slack was out, but much better than going to the ground.
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mhay
climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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If Scott had his rope remain clipped into his lower bolts would he still have hit the ground when the bolt he was on broke?
The bottom of that photo is about 10' above the ground. I think he probably would not have decked. The first bolt is about 15+' off the ground, and spacing between bolts was about 6'. So if the bolt did not break until we was right at it he would be about 27-30' off the ground, with a 12'-plus stretch fall.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 17, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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Wow.
TWO accidents resulting from people failing to clip bolts in less than two weeks, right here on this forum. And this accident fatal.
Why do people skip bolts? It makes no sense!
If Scott had been following standard lead rope solo techniques - instead of trying to "re-invent the wheel" by using this risky shortcut - he would be here, writing this post himself, and preaching to all of us the lunacy of trusting one's life to but a single bolt.
The whole idea in climbing is to build REDUNDANCY into your system, but Scott's system had none, and he paid the ultimate price.
Young Bulls - pay attention and learn!
How incredibly sad. My condolences to Scott's friends and family.
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
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Dan & Marty unscrewed one of the 3/8" 5-pieces and saw only very minimal rust (23 years old now). Obviously this can be location dependent, I've seen significantly rusted bolts in Owens, although minimal rust is much more common (it's pretty dang dry down there).
As Marty's Owens guidebooks have said for decades, "Bolts should be 3/8" or larger in diameter." It should be noted however that 5/16" buttonheads were rated nearly as strong as 3/8" bolts (in fact they were actually stronger than some 3/8" bolts) and they were considered perfectly bomber at that time.
Here are two more photos of the broken section of bolt, Dan's camera wasn't focusing that well so he brought it over to Kevin Calder who took these photos:
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 17, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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Thanks for the reply's Ben909, Franky and mhay.
Maybe Scott was too confident about bolts?
Maybe he's never broken one or had a partner break one?
They can break when you least expect?
I backed one up once because my partner was going to rap off it since that's all there was, one bolt.
Slung a boulder with webbing for back up and equalized.
The bolt broke and made a loud noise.
He was 2/3 of the way down the rappel.
If the bolt had not been backed up ..... DEATH!
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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Just for information. Just micrometered a few bolts and;
10mm Fixi double wedge 10mm diameter bolt, 10.67 at the biggest part (Part that grabs)
3/8 Wedge Bolt, 9.57 diameter bolt, 11.36 at the biggest part
3/8 Buttonhead, 9.27 diameter bolt, 12.37 at the biggest part
3/8 Buttonhead, driven onto a Petzl hanger last year 9.27 diameter bolt
11.64 at biggest part. ( now that's weird)
3/8 Five-Piece, 9.83 diameter sleeve, 12.67 at the biggest part (Cone screwed into sleeve)
Wedge bolt screwed down till out of threads. Stamped A (Shortest one)
15/16 total amount of bolt in rock
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grover
climber
Castlegar BC
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Mar 17, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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Does anyone know what type of hanger was on the bolt?
Thanks
Mark
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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it was a Metolius hanger, no rust.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
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Thanks for that. All you need to see is that first photo. The mode of failure is obvious.
So sorry for the loss of family and friends.
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grover
climber
Castlegar BC
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Mar 17, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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Thanks Franky
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
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Huge thanks to everyone for the accident analysis. It is extremely valuable and especially to someone like myself who is fairly ignorant of the differences amoung bolts.
I love climbing everywhere on the east side of the Sierra and do my fair share of bolt clipping. If I knew how to rebolt I would join the effort but since I don't I will do the only thing I can do and make an extra contribution to the Asca this year. I didn't know Scott but this accident hits close to home. It won't be any consolation to those who lost him, but it may make a tiny difference in the big picture.
Thanks again , Greg.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 17, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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I agree. Kris has placed a lot of these, as I have, and I hesitate to disagree with him. Most of the Rawl 5/16 buttonheads I placed pounded in easily. Tapering the hole would have had no point. A few, however, went in hard, with the head deforming slightly from the hammer blows. These are probably suspect. This often happened with a bit that had been shortened by repeated sharpening. They start out with a reverse taper - to reduce binding - which is lost as the bit gets filed shorter.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Mar 17, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
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I can't help but to think back on the recent interview with Croft and Honnold. How Croft thought Honnold was crazy clipping into bolts (while soloing) because "bolts can break".
Thanks for all the work and providing an education to us.
RIP Scott
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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I doubt that any manufacturer would advise the practice of making the entrance to the hole larger. Nevertheless, after having placed hundreds in granite, I can say the clear choice was to create an oval hole for the first 1/4" or having the rock spall out 3/8" deep 360 degrees around. Using a rotohammer, we would rock the bit side to side, horizontally, for the first couple seconds. The 5/16" buttonhead was inserted with the split in the horizontal orientation, so the widest part of the split shaft contacts the wide sides of the hole. That practice reduced spalling significantly.
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Rick Sylvester
Trad climber
Squaw Valley, California
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Mar 17, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
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The idea of fully committing to a single bolt, even the modern 3/8 inch ones which seem so awesome and trustworthy considering the 1/4" ones which were by and large all I and my generation had, has always seemed a very daunting proposition to me. I think I first became aware of such a practice in regards to someone -- I've forgotten the name; I think it might have been an East European -- employing similar tactics, more or less ropeless, so as to move fast to set a speed record on a predominantly aid, i.e. every piece get weighted, El Cap route. It was brought to mind again while watching the footage of Alex Honnold on Mt. Watkins' South face as part of his incredible solo big walls trilogy within 24 hours accomplishment. Alex is known for taking as much risk out of his solos as possible due to usually having rehearsal climbed them before, often several times, working out the moves and sequences, cleaning where necessary, etc. I'm wondering if part of that process when some aid not just free climbing is involved, as on the above trilogy, entails carefully inspecting the fixed gear. But of course the problem is that such inspections can never be perfect.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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Nice post Rick.
A single button-head. I just can't imagine trusting my life to ONE BOLT. Could he maybe not see the condition or type of bolt from the stick-clip stance below?
Regardless, isn't one of our prime directives redundancy? I can't get my head around this one, but am distressed nonetheless.
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Flydude
Trad climber
Prather, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
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5/16" buttonheads were very popular at Courtright in 80's and there are an abundance of routes that still sport this equipment. I remember that they could be tricky to place on lead without some spauling and it was not unusual to come across some placed in holes that were too shallow.
I'd sure be happy to host an event there in learning how to remove these dudes and replace with solid equipment.
Greg, thanks for this update and let me know how I can help.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 10:51pm PT
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MisterE,
I think you touch on an interesting point,
The hanger on this particular bolt looked bomber and the head didn't show any obvious signs of corrosion externally. I think most climbers are suspect of buttonheads, but also know that the 5/16 and 3/8 versions can be very strong.
The point being, the bolt wasn't obviously bad.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 17, 2015 - 11:06pm PT
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Greg,
I would have replied to your request for routes with 5/16" buttonheads sooner, but I was out rebolting. The route Alchemist's Revenge on Pennyroyal Arches has 5/16" buttonheads.
I still have about eight or so of these when I was using them(in Colorado) in the late 80's. Does it make sense to do some testing or should they all just get replaced?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 17, 2015 - 11:10pm PT
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1st pitch of Greasy but Groovy has them....
Also Boltway....Probably the most popular route in TM but you won't catch me replacing them.......
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Mar 17, 2015 - 11:53pm PT
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I recall that we used 5/16" buttonheads at Wright's Lake, near Phantom Spires, in the late '80s. I believe that the routes "The Fin" and "The Prow", and probably some others, too, had these bolts, originally. I hope they have been replaced.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:10am PT
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Here is a photo of a 1/4" split shaft which shows the same type of cracking.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:23am PT
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If I had to guess I'd probably say that Scott has probably done this same thing on this same climb in the past without issue. He's been climbing in the Gorge for 2 decades. Once again we see that, like car accidents, so many of our climbing accidents are close to home on familiar terrain with experienced climbers making what most of us would describe as "beginner" mistakes. The most mundane of climbs can kill just as readily as the most harrowing.
Thank you to Greg and all the rest who have taken the time to investigate and dissect this accident. For some reason it feels a little better knowing the details of the event and seeing the bolt in question. I pray that Scott did not suffer in his last moments and my heart aches that he was alone during that time.
I've always thought of myself a bit weak for not trusting these kinds of bolts more readily but now I feel justified in my wariness.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:29am PT
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Sederstrom had a stick-clip attached to his harness. The evidence suggests that he was going bolt to bolt—unclipping the one below as he went. I used to live near ORG in the early 90s, and that was a scenario I'd thought about for rope soloing there.
I was too lazy to ever try it, but also a red flag goes off in your mind about relying on one bolt entirely like that.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:11am PT
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I still have about eight or so of these when I was using them(in Colorado) in the late 80's. Does it make sense to do some testing or should they all just get replaced? BH
Testing cuts both ways. If you misjudge and test to too high a level one can weaken. A better approach is for one person using exactly the same procedure to place a statistically significant number of bolts in a test piece of the rock under consideration, and then to test those to failure.
Prior to WWII the War Department spent millions working out a reliable process for swaging the cables that were used to control B17's. Our habit of having climbers with no established statistical base out placing personal protective gear does not bear examination. With the emphasis our culture now places on personal safety, what we are doing will come to no good.
Edit:
Jstan,
Many here probably agree with you. Solution?
One of the first things I learned is not to propose answers when raising important questions. Doing so just causes conflict that prevents discussion. Everyone has to wrestle with a problem on a creative level if there is ever to be consensus.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 18, 2015 - 03:56am PT
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The fruits of our labors have come home to roost,
The time that jstan alludes to is now. Placing gear, bolts is close to
Rocket science when in the hands of uninformed climbers.
Is there a course in the gyms as to how to place bolts ? It could be a good revenue stream.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 06:40am PT
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Bruce,
Replace them all, There are some climbing areas that are replacing everything non-stainless.
Jstan,
Many here probably agree with you. Solution?
Greg,
Thanks for stockpiling me before you left. Looks like a busy season.
Clint,
We got work now.
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MJrose
Sport climber
California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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Thank you all for this analysis. My heart goes out to friends and family, such a tragedy.
RE what Franky said about the hanger being bomber, I have always been suspicious of buttonheads but is there any other takeaway for climbers as far as visual inspecting? Aside from the obvious that is (redundancy, don't be too trusting of bolts, etc). As someone said, there was no obvious signs of rust.
I don't bolt routes although I am always trying to learn about the process because I feel like it is part of understanding the risks we take. Here's hoping this can be a call to action for climbers to donate to rebolting efforts.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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Maybe we should adopt a 25 year rule on all bolts (for free climbs).
Permanent anchors get wear and tear from use and mother nature. Those "things" that were once bolts in the caymens and thailand that rot into the sea are a reminder that everything goes back to the earth at some point. Maybe this is also a good thing in that clean gear placements may come back in vogue as you, the leader, determine viability of your protection versus the trust of a fixed object. a 50 year old stainless bolt, is still 50 years old.
We used a lot of zinc 5 piece back in the late 80s and some used USE diamond taper bolts. Both will clean out pretty easy. A fair number of 5/16 buttonheads were placed (in a standard hand drilled hole) but most are in remote ares with little use except Wiley Javelina on Table dome that gets some traffic.
I have seen a lot of crap bolts in the desert-the real desert -bolt ladders on Chinle Spire and (shudder) Eagle Rock... I would rather that the rare repeat ascents do not loose that experience. A.4 bolt ladders Beckey and Bjornstad placed that have needed "love" over time. Bolting through with 1/2" would turn them into Mexican Hat- which was a joke route to begin with and once was home to Todd Gordon's baby angle.
Please, if there is going to be a mass effort to replace all this hardware keep it to the popular routes and leave the obscurities alone.
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:54am PT
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] Our habit of having climbers with no established statistical base out placing personal protective gear does not bear examination. With the emphasis our culture now places on personal safety, what we are doing will come to no good.
Jstan, please expound on your line of thought. Are you saying that present "modern" bolting and re-bolting materials/techniques will result in failures that may lead to injury/death lawsuits?
If a bolt placed must be forever A+ bombproof, then only "certified" bolts placed in perfect rock verified by (state?) inspectors would be acceptable.
We have this testing of bolts after placement to verify specs in work performed on hospitals, bridges, ect. At inspection the inspectors record manufacturer, lot and serial numbers of the products used and torque test 50% to 100% of our bolts. If one bolt failed they would test 100% of the bolts we placed for that particular construction. Certain situations in seismic work require certified pull test for all epoxied bolts.
Are we looking for this level of guaranteed safety? We can try but with all the variables in natural rock and corrosion/stress factors this is not going to happen.
Replacing old bolts along with redundancy and backups are a climbers best choice.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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Lessons to be learned here don't seem very complicated to me.
Try not to rely on a single point of failure. A single bolt in this case. If you do make sure it's a relatively new bolt (or super bomber piece) in good rock. We all do it occasionally but it's a horrible thing to make a habit of and become comfortable with.
Wear a helmet.
Support the ASCA!
Old news we all know. Sadly it's usually the things we all know that are involved in the vast majority of accidents.
It would be nice to know how old a bolt is. Perhaps it would be worth the effort for manufactures to date stamp all hangers with the year of manufacture. Not a perfect system since folks may hang onto them a few years before install but it would at least help inform future climbers and retrofits. It may be a hundred years but eventually all bolts require replacement.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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The disturbing thing here is mostly that an accident like this would result in discussions of standards, certification, and the like. Accidents like this obviously DON'T happen every day, in spite of the multitude of bolts out there with people hanging on them. The likelihood (IMO) is pretty high that this accident would not have occurred if some seriously bad practices weren't being used (guy hanging his bacon off a single bolt with no backup comes to mind).
I don't think we need to go all crazy with wacky talk of formalizing bolt placement or setting up training in the gyms (ho mahn, that would be a really bad idea). It's plenty to recognize that these split-shaft bolts are unacceptable (as was done a few years back with anything but Ti bolts in sea cliffs) and should not be used, as well as getting the known split bolts replaced as soon as possible.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Well said steelm.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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If you care so much about the historic old bolts, a lot of replacers will leave an original bolt at the belay as an extra to show the original quality of the bolts...
Here is an original that was left for historical value. A new SS anchor was placed close to the original recently. It is a beauty.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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QUIT BLAMING THE BOLT!
This accident is NOT the bolt's fault!!
This accident is 100% pilot error, by not building redundancy into the system, and by not following standard operating procedures for safe rope soloing techniques!!
We need to get climbers to understand the above, so they don't repeat the errors and end up dead. What happens next? Someone replaces bolts, puts in nice shiny new ones, and now it's "OK" to climb unsafely?!
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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QUIT BLAMING THE BOLT!
This accident is NOT the bolt's fault!!
This accident is 100% pilot error, by not building redundancy into the system, and by not following standard operating procedures for safe rope soloing techniques!!
We need to get climbers to understand the above, so they don't repeat the errors and end up dead. What happens next? Someone replaces bolts, puts in nice shiny new ones, and now it's "OK" to climb unsafely?! This is absolutely true. In normal climbing circumstances or even proper rope-soloing you'd be clipped to the last bolt below. However, like it or not, it is not uncommon that the last bolt wouldn't keep you from hitting the ground or at least prevent serious potential for injury. There are lots of sport climbs where a bolt failure low on the route would still result in a ground fall. So there is still merit in discussing the replacement of questionable bolts. IMO, if you're going to bother having a bolt on a climb, it might as well be good.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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Fantastic photo Clinker.
Good call in replacing that bolt, but good call too in leaving the history for others to see.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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WOW no sh!t !!!!!
Thanks for the element MisterE .....
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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We all do it or have done it, wether its hanging on a head on an aid route without testing it because, if it blew, you don't want to have to place another one. Yelling off belay at the top of Intersection rock before you have built an anchor because its big and relatively flat up there and only a dummy would trip and pitch off the edge. 3rd. classing 5th. class terrain because its leagues below your capability. Not placing a piece as soon as you leave the anchor because its piss easy climbing. Back cleaning an aid pitch to save gear or make it easier for your follower.
Maybe this is a reminder that we all need to be more vigilant and trust fixed gear a little less.
It would seem he thought he had a semi-redundant system too. Simply clip into the first bolt with the stick clip, then safety to it when you get there and clip the next one. Weight that bolt before you unclip the one you're on.
In this case it looks like he had a decent stance to clip from, so he probably didn't fully weight the bolt before he unclipped his safety. (Or it was too short so he couldn't) I can see ground anchors as a real pita at org, so this is probably why he chose to do it this way, but I would use the first two bolts as an anchor with a running grigri belay.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Clint,
We got work now. Roger,
Are we going to the Owens River Gorge, to look for 5/16"?
Or Meadows - I saw Greg's list.
Some in the Valley, too.
There are some on the first 2 pitches of Perfect Vision that have been rightly described as the ugliest bolts people have ever seen - Joel and I really had to bash to get them in. It seems like we may have methods to remove & replace them now.
P.S. I have broken that rule about not trusting a single bolt, too many times. Often it's a newly placed stainless 3/8". But this may happen to me someday. Have done the stick clipping ascent a few times, but with a belayer and left the bolts clipped in.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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Maybe this is a reminder that we all need to be more vigilant and trust fixed gear a little less.
I don't look at a critique of what happened in terms of the individual. I'm really bummed when anyone buys it climbing, whether I knew them or not, but the best thing I'd want people to take from any accident I had would be the knowledge that stuff like this can happen and we should always be vigilant and follow the rules to maximize our safety.
Reminder for sure. The rule not so much directed at any fixed gear in my view. The reminder should be independent of the piece: Always have redundancy in place whenever it's possible.
Yeah, we all do it, but yeah, we shouldn't. So reminders are good.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Clint,
If I get my volunteer status back it will be in the valley. I have seen
lots of them. Chapel Wall, Eagle Creek, Public Sanitation?
If no volunteer status, maybe the Dome Land wilderness.
Really any hand drilling area that I can survive in money wise. I really can't afford another season in TM. A week or two maybe, but not for months.
Hope to be back in the valley a week from next Monday. I will E-Mail you when I know for sure.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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Clint, I'd think that we ought to develop a list of the most popular routes/belay anchors which we know are predominantly 5/16" buttonheads and prioritize from there.
I've climbed a lot at Owens and replaced a lot of bolts down there, and I can't remember ever seeing a single 5/16" buttonhead there. But you see them all over the place in certain areas, enough that it's hard to remember which bolts.
I think as far as Tuolumne, the single bolt belay on pitch 1 of Great Pumpkin would be highest priority - it has gear backup, but lots of people clip into a bolt, lean back, then mess with gear. That one is a bit of a tough one since I think it was not original even though it's been there for a couple or three decades (need to research since sometimes a bolt was not always mentioned at belays). Next would be the East Cottage sport routes, which are always popular, and bolted in such a way that a bolt failure in the first 3 bolts would probably end up with decking.
Actually - are the bolts on the crux pitch of Oz 5/16" buttonheads? Those were replaced in the mid-late '90s before the ASCA was around, I'm thinking those might be buttonheads? That crux has a nasty ledge to hit so those would be priority too.
I'd think that for each area we'd want to concentrate on the most popular routes.
Also I would guess that bolts that were pounded super hard might be more likely to have fractures (or not?)? So Perfect Vision might be high on the list?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
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Roger, several of the major domes at Courtright are in Wilderness, with nearby free camping. Most all bolts will be 1/4" or 5/16" buttonheads. Zero services, cell phone reception, or pay phone option without driving 45 minutes to the Wishon store.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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Thanks for the ideas, Greg!
(Of course the 5/16" in the Valley will still be prime targets.
We were "running out" of 1/4".)
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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Everything on Drug Dome was replaced in 2013. A lot of 5/16 were replaced that season in TM. I think OZ was done .I will check the log book.
EDIT: Log shows no bolts replaced on OZ
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benkraft
climber
San Francisco
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
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Almost positive the oz had buttonheads, including a spinner, in August 2014. But they might have been petzl long lifes, I'm a newb at this.
This past weekend a partner decided not to get on bitches' terror at church bowl because it looked (from bishops terrace) to be all buttonheads. Unfortunately I was arguing that they were probably bomber...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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please add about half of Sequoia National Park to your list of crappy bolts. Especially Moro Rock.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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Hi Roger,
I was up replacing bolts on Oz two or three different times, we never messed with the "new" 5/16" buttonheads on the crux pitch. The priority was fixing up the anchors, and the 1/4" pro bolts particularly the ones on the last pitch (the first two of which were super annoying to replace - ended up coming in from above over that sharp roof backed up on 2 different 11mm statics plus an edge protector, and I had to move them a few inches).
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Mar 18, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
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Over 50 years of clipping, and I replaced bolts before the ASCA, like on the East Buttress of Middle (nasty, getting those lead shields out)
and I have learned so much from you guys on this thread. You are true pros.
Thank You!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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Thank YOU Doug, you probably saved a few broken bones or worse by doing that. Some of the most important bolts around were replaced by locals long before the ASCA came on the scene.
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jonnywoodward
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 03:09pm PT
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If ever there was a place that needed good quality bolts it is Tuolumne. If ever there were two deserving climbers it is Clint and Roger. We need those guys out there this Summer and if the significant cost of a month's camping is a deterrent, we all lose. There's gotta be a way.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Tuolumne is generally in pretty good shape. There are definitely some old nasty bolts out there, but even many obscure and severely runout routes have been replaced. There are entire domes (or big sections of large domes) with no old bolts left, and some with only a handful.
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ruppell
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
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Roger
If you do decide to replace the stuff in the Domelands, Bart Dome is in real need of an upgrade. Most all of the bolts except for Mike Mason Memorial route are time bombs. Like short 1/4" leeper hanger time bombs. If you need any beta or need a hand on a weekend I might be able to help. Send me a PM here if you wish. And thanks for all the stuff you have gotten to already.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
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If ever there was a place that needed good quality bolts it is Tuolumne. Like Greg said, Tuolumne is mostly fixed now.
Roger actually started with summers (2005, 2006) replacing in Tuolumne,
before doing the summers in Yosemite Valley.
Roger was running Greg, Karin and friends ragged in Tuolumne, fixing ropes for him.
http://safeclimbing.org/areas/california/tuolumne.htm
In 2013, it was mostly obscure stuff that we replaced in Tuolumne - Whale's Back had the most bolts. And West Farthing Wall.
I'm glad we got the last of the 1/4" bolts on Sunshine (Drug Dome), though.
P.S. Nice work replacing the crux bolts on Hall of Mirrors, Jonny. We felt a little bad about pulling them for 3/8", as the stainless 1/4" were still looking great.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 18, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
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There are some 5/16" buttonheads at Tollhouse Rock. The route which starts just left of the Direct Start to the Direct has at least one on it.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2015 - 06:30am PT
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Wow, thanks Bill, that's amazing detail for bolts bought almost 25 years ago!
As far as 5/16" buttonheads snapping, I just heard this from Kevin Powell about recent bolt replacement in Joshua Tree - the main thing to note is that a couple he replaced down there recently snapped very easily during replacement:
And yes I heard about the buttonhead failure. Sounds truly tragic. We have removed about 20 of the 5/16 recently here in Josh. A few spalled the edge of the hole but most come out with just a little more effort than a 1/4" version. In the coarse grained Josh rock I know the 5/16 will come out so try and pull them when possible and replace with 1/2". I have sheered a couple of heads with just a few lite hits of the hammer on the tuning fork. Don't have a list but know there are hundreds here in Josh.
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alpinist
Trad climber
tahoe city
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Mar 19, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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The Hulk is definitely on the list. I know there is one of the largest assortment of bolt types and condition on that beauty. Rusty 1/4, 5/16" button heads. 5/16" sleeve bolts (yikes!). and a variety of high use belay/rappel stations that still sport the old "open" cold shuts.
Anyway, I still get up there from time to time and will make an effort to replace poor bolts.
I had a close friend die in a anchor failure incident (not bolts) and it lit a fire under my butt to replace the nasty old protection and anchor bolts at our local crag. There was a little heat from a minority, but decided I could take it. Any time I heard claims that replacing (not adding) bad bolts "changed" the character of a route I would reply, "yeah, it went from fun, challenging and stupid to fun, challenging and smart.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 19, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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We get that heat here too when trying to replace old garbage anchors/bolts with new when no alternative protection exists....
Good for you.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Mar 19, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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Dave, I was aware of some older bolts on Venturi and Tradewinds. I think the last of them were replaced last year. What are some of the other routes that you think have bad bolts? I'd love to help if I know what they are.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 19, 2015 - 11:10am PT
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Regarding the bolt that failed in ORG; The bolt appears to be plated. If the bolt even received a hairline crack during placement, that would seem to do it. Unplated steel exposed to the elements. I think the rest of the bolts on the route will probably come out in one piece when it gets replaced.
Dan,
If you replace them all, let us know what you find.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Mar 19, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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There is something I can't understand. What is to be gained from unclipping the first two bolts from the rope? Why did he do that?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 19, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
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^^^^^^
My guess is that the climber was just 'aiding' up the climb to setup a toprope so he could then climb the route. He wasn't actually climbing the route with a belay of any sort.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Mar 19, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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^^^ Gotcha, no belay at all. Wow, talk about reckless.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 19, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
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As to why and how to set a rope up in the Owens river Gorge,
the top is Choss, and going bolt to bolt alone is a common practice I think?
Can any one who Top ropes, solo there say?
Latter....I am sorry , back to ask the rest of the question,
Is it possible to be clipped in to more than one bolt and still move up?
( stick clip the bolts above from the lower one? what form of belay could he have rigged?
I leave a second strand of cord running through a device, as well as the 'sling shot' top rope
'that goes from me to a pulley 'wall haler' type device, at the top anchor , then back to a GriGri and a free locker as well as tying back up knots as I climb,
this works well so far for straight up routes with little to no traversing.
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Mar 19, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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Sederstrom was on the ground, with an eight-foot loop of slack between the tie-in point on his harness and GriGri attached to his belay loop. A quickdraw was on the rope within the loop, and a bolt hanger, missing its bolt, was on the other end of the draw.
Sederstrom had a stick-clip attached to his harness. The evidence suggests that he was going bolt to bolt—unclipping the one below as he went—when the third bolt of the climb failed.
Sederstrom fell 25 to 30 feet to the ground, suffering trauma to his head. He was not wearing a helmet.
He was on self belay, but with only one bolt above him most of the time. Very sad story. Condolences to his friends and family.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 19, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
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^^^^^^^^
as per my guess in the posting above, this is all speculation. If he really was climbing with only a belay from the bolt above that is not a very safe method.
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alpinist
Trad climber
tahoe city
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Mar 19, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
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Hopefully they've been replaced, but the bolts on the upper pitches of "Astro-Hulk" were placed on lead right during the era when all the Rawl 5/16" were gone and it hadn't occurred to us yet to hand drill 3/8". I think the bolt on the "enduro pitch" and the anchor above that on "recliner ledge" are suspect. I would feel better knowing they were new fatties.
Also the bolts on the "Terrace" still had Cold Shuts last year as well as at the base of the Chimney Pitch on the "Astro-Hulk" direct start to Positive Vibes.
Thanks for the effort upgrading any old bolts on Tradewinds and Venturi Effect..routes that deserve attention and maintenance from time to time.
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Scole
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 20, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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Rule #1:
Never trust your life to a single point.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 20, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Rule #1:
Never trust your life to a single point.
When 3/8-inch bolts were first used, circa late-80s, in Heuco Tanks, for a short while it was thought that since they were so big and burly a single bolt could be trusted for rappel anchors.
But this was short-lived. It was soon clear that, just like 1/4-inchers, they could not be relied upon 100% to be placed perfectly, in perfect rock, every time. And they would corrode with time, wear or loosen with use. Or a carabiner could come unclipped, or something.
Redundancy is such an important concept with climbing anchors of any kind.
Me, and most of my friends, have on rare occasion trusted a single anchor for retreat, rappel, whatever. But it is rare, it is a last resort. I inspect said anchor carefully before deciding it's gonna be OK. Bolts fail very rarely, so if I do this maybe once every 3 years the odds are very much against lowering from an anchor (maybe one out of several thousand?) that will fail under bodyweight.
The mistake here was to trust single anchors, over and over and over. All of a sudden, those odds are stacked heavily against you. Unfortunate judgement, in this case tragic.
We can replace every bolts in the USA but they will never all be 100% bombproof. They never were, they never will be. Climbing bolts were never intended for this kind of use.
Condolences for the family and friends of the victim.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Mar 20, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
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Here is a tweak on the solo aid stick clip method that is most common. It strives to address a single bolt failure down low. The fall will still be severe, maybe screamers should be used on bolts 1 and 2.
How one decides to back up to bolt 2 is another discussion worth having. Do you anchor direct and risk a factor 2 fall onto it or do you butterfly to it in such a way that bolt 3 failing produces a favour one fall held by bolt 1. The butterfly would serve to keep you anchored in the event bolt 1 failed after bolt 3.
In any case, this limits your fall length to less than the distance between bolts and should keep you off the ground if bolt 3 fails. Depending on how things are bolted this might keep you off the ground for a bolt 2 failure as well. It's going to be serious, but it increases your chances of not decking. Once you are at a suitable height just remove the prussiks.
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 20, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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[photoid=403362]
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 20, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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For the bolts mentioned above from the Landlord in Joshua Tree, one reason for replacing bolts is to reduce their visual presence and minimize resource impact caused by rusting. Park visitors sometimes complain about the "rusty junk" that they see "up on the rock"! While this may not be much of a concern in the Gorge it is a big concern in the higher profile areas in Joshua Tree. That is one reason why stainless steel bolts and rock colored hangers are highly desirable.
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 20, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 20, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 20, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
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[photoid=403367]
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 20, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
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As Henny mentioned upthread, after 30 years of replacing bolts, you really can not tell what is going on behind that hanger. I/we have removed "bomber" looking bolts in "perfect" rock with little effort and then spent an extended amount of time on a ragged, rusty looking 1/4" "piece of junk".
My thoughts are never use the word "bomber" when referring to a fixed piece of gear. I will always trust a piece of gear that I have placed more than a fixed piece of gear that I have no idea as to who or how it was placed and what man made or environmental factors have influenced it since it was left behind for the masses. People often say they do not have the money to use all stainless or other suitable gear that is potentially safer and more sustainable when putting up new routes. I walked that road in the 70's and 80's and look back on it now as a regrettable life experience. I would encourage people who are establishing new routes to show some pride of ownership and use gear that is safer and more sustainable than your average hardware store goods. Also, consider the resource and reduce the visual presence as much as possible.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 20, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
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Rule #1:
Never trust your life to a single point.
Still there's only ONE single point in life that one can ever ultimately trust period.
Paradox ....
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 20, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
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Dimes,
the anchor bolts from Walk on the Steep Side look to be Rawl 'Drop-in' bolts.
http://www.powers.com/product_06308.php
With this type of bolt there is an internal pin in the sleeve. As you tighten the bolt into the sleeve you push the pin further down the sleeve which causes the end of the sleeve deepest into the rock to expand.
There are a couple of negatives with this type of bolt. First, you have to drill a 1/2" hole to be able to use a 3/8" bolt.
Secondly, if you can't tighten the bolt all the way down into the sleeve (I have seen this happen in Pinnacles National Park) you either have a spinner or you have to cut off the end of the bolt. The bolts in the photo from Walk on the Steep Side are quite short compared to what I have seen that normally come with that bolt. Too short of a bolt and you might not get enough expansion which would reduce the pull-out strength of the bolt.
Lastly, they don't come in stainless steel.
ps- thanks for all your hard work replacing bolts!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Mar 20, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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bhilden,
That style of drop-in anchor does not receive it's expansion from the bolt being tightened. A setting tool is used with repeated (20ish) hammer blows to drive a small internal cone toward the base of the anchor. The cone is what you referred to as the "pin."
In the 3/8" size (requires 1/2" drilled hole), there is 5/8" of female thread to accept a cap screw (bolt). Thus, the short bolt pictured by "Dimes".
There are other strong drop-in anchors, such as the "Saber Tooth" which are driven down onto a partially external cone. Precise hole depth is required.
Then there are some weaker anchors such as, the Powers "Single" and "Double." Those are expanded when a bolt is screwed into them. IMHO, none of these should be used for climbing purposes, and certainly not the "Single" or "Double."
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 20, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
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^^^^^^
Juan,
you are correct. I think one of the reasons why we have had problems with these in the Pinnacles National Park is that the users just assumed that screwing in the bolt would set the cone/pin. When that failed, the climbers just cut off the end of the bolt so that the hanger was flush.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 20, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
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Thanks, Dimes - those shallow screw-expansion ones are skeeeetchy.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Mar 20, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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Yeah, but the length of that bolt that screws into the drop in anchor is not short. It uses the threads for strength and it only takes so many threads to make good contact.
Drop ins haven't been real popular for climbing applications for reasons I'm not sure but I've used them for other applications.
Arne
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ryankelly
Trad climber
Bhumi
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Mar 20, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
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Bolts will fail and so will our judgement from time to time.
Much love and respect to Scott Sederstrom.
Thanks ,Dan McD for investigating
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rockgeir
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 21, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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Greg,
Earlier in this thread you asked about known 3/8" split shaft failures. We recently had one in Cochise on Be All, End All. There is a post on MP about it.
Also, I recently broke one of these on Devoid in Cochise while replacing it. The bolt failed with almost no force applied to the bolt puller. Others I have pulled have been quite solid.
There are a lot of 5/16" and 3/8" split shafts in Cochise; I and others are working on replacing them as we are able.
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msiddens
Trad climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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Thanks for sharing this
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
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I've been reading this topic about 5/16" Rawl-Drive button head compaction bolts, and I think I have a few things of interest to throw into the mix.
There has already been a lot of valuable discussion. What Sam Lightner Jr. had to offer about the subject of corrosion is something that I've long been mindful of. I like what Greg Barnes, and Bruce Hildenbrand, as well as others, had to offer on the subject as well. A lot of us here have been driving bolts, and removing bolts for decades, and we have, as a collective, many, many cumulative years of in-the -field knowledge on this subject.
Here is what I can add to the mix, in a nutshell: A way to remove 5/16" button heads. A good reason for their removal, and the removal of all ferrous metal bolts, or ferrous metal hangers.
I don't know if Ed Leeper is still around. If he is, he certainly could throw in some valuable info into this mix. So could Jeff Achey who wrote in Climbing Magazine just last year, I believe, the single best article that I have every seen written on the subject of bolts and corrosion. http://www.climbing.com/climber/built-to-last/
I've had a means of driving a modified, rather straight bladed, Stanley brand claw hammer underneath bolt hangers, and bolts, that I had first used in about 1987. The modification is a widened slot that will allow 5/16" button heads to be fairly easily pulled. I've pulled a few hundred bolts through the years with this system, mostly 1/4" of course. But this tool can be driven under 5/16" button heads with just a little bit more effort. Of course, one needs the aid of another hammer for the driving. The claw hammer needs to be driven under the hanger. This is often best along the axis at the bottom of the hanger. Then the angle of the driving hammer is changed by hammering on the bottom edge of the hammer face of the claw hammer. This has a levering force that will lever the bolt out in just a few blows. You need a straight blade claw - a curved one will not work.
The primary reason that causes all ferrous metal, case hardened bolts, hangers, and pitons to readily corrode and weaken is stress. If any hardened ferrous metal or ferrous alloy is put in a stress position, over time, stress fractures will occur. When a stress fracture works its way across the bolt, it can be so small that it cannot be even seen with the naked eye. Rust will follow! How much corrosion takes place can be accelerated by salt air, or acidity from things like acid rain, water runoff through acid-charged soils (forest, etc.). Over-driven bolts in a hole that was not drilled deep enough in the first place will definitely cause stress fracturing. When holes are drilled into extremely hard, dense granite the holes will be just slightly tighter fitting, and the Rawl-Drive compaction bolt that is driven into that hole has to be hammered with even more force, - this could cause stress fracturing, too. For one thing, these compaction bolts were never designed for this type of application. Mostly, they were designed for concrete construction. When they are driven into concrete they never have to compact this tightly.
I started pulling the 5/16" bolts as well, as the 1/4" bolts, because I figured that these were oftentimes over-driven in their holes for the same reasons that the 1/4" had been. I started noticing what appeared to be some stress fracturing, with some rust through, on these bolts as well. These bolts just hadn't had the weathering, and age, that the 1/4" had had, because they had not started being made until perhaps 1986 or '87, I think.
I started seeing some of the 5/16" Rawl-drive that had the same problems as the 1/4" have. They just hadn't had time to rust as much. I did come across a few that snapped on me with that same sort of rusting that had gone through, and apparently weakened the bolt through a stress fractured area.
I've told many people about this time-bomb sort of feature, that is inherent in ferrous metal, and that was just waiting to happen. A lot of folks, for whatever reason, didn't seem to believe me on this subject. For one, they didn't really understand how I could pull a 5/16" Rawl-Drive button-head out, and because they hadn't been able to do the same, they figured that they were "way, way, bomber, man!"
But, like I have said, I really don't think anyone necessarily believed me anyway, and I'm talking about people that had a really good bunch of knowledge about bolts, and in some cases, re-bolting as well. 5/16" buttoned-head bolts were oftentimes so hard to drive into hard granite in the first place, then how could one possible pull it out, right? I remember saying to them, "Well, it's a time bomb just waiting to happen." It's just a real shame that a nice young man had to lose his life in order for there to be enough attention to be brought to the subject.
I'm not a metallurgist of any sort. I have studied, however, high school metal shops, and welding shops, as well as college courses in the same, and have had a long time interest in bolts and hangers and their applications.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 22, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
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Thanks, Dimes - those shallow screw-expansion ones are skeeeetchy.
Yeah, but the length of that bolt that screws into the drop in anchor is not short. It uses the threads for strength and it only takes so many threads to make good contact.
Drop ins haven't been real popular for climbing applications for reasons I'm not sure but I've used them for other applications.
In fact those bolts were very common for over a decade (maybe two?) in Europe. There are still loads in use on French crags. They are the same as the ones I mentioned in the Caulking Bolts thread - see photos. These ones are 10mm but in fact we started off with 8mm being the norm.
I've never heard of any that have failed - though of course that doesn't mean there haven't been any. They have been systematically replaced over the years, at first with regular expansion bolts - usually 12mm in France, especially the south, and now the preference is for stainless glue-ins. Unfortunately in general the admirable US ethic of trying to re-use the same hole isn't even heard of in these parts. Sometime no effort is even made to remove the old bolt. Which is a shame...
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Mar 22, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
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Another climb to add to the list with the 5/16 buttonheads is the AO on El Cap. Many in the belay bolts. We replaced a few to have at least one big bolt. I replaced an old 1/4 in a belay which came out way to easy and the other two were 5/16 button heads. Really glad I did now. Hauling puts a bit of stress on the anchors.
On the solo to set up a mini trac rope, I'd recommend using a set of aiders. Reach up with the stick and clip the aider into the bolt. Solo belay with the grigri as you would short fix and climb the aider up to the bolt. It is best if you can find an anchor at ground level or use the first and second bolt. Never stick clip anything by threading the rope up there and hauling yourself up with the rope.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 03:21pm PT
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jaaan said,"In fact those bolts were very common for over a decade (maybe two?) in Europe. There are still loads in use on French crags. They are the same as the ones I mentioned in the Caulking Bolts thread - see photos. These ones are 10mm but in fact we started off with 8mm being the norm."
I find this interesting, because I originally was a caver before I was a climber, and at the time we cavers were primarily using self-drive Red Heads that were basically a very similar design as these drop-ins.
I once talked to a construction worker who had worked on the Diablo nuclear power plant, and he was telling me that the Hilti drop-ins were the only bolt to come through all of the simulated earthquake testing they had done for many, various types of bolt designs that they were considering for okaying for construction of the power plant. This must truly be a design of bolt that could take repeated shock loads, and be able to hold in any pulling, or shearing direction, I would guess?
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Mar 22, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
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Good call on your solo technique m_jones. If you clip your rope in first and then ascend it (as opposed to an aider)you double the load on the bolt (twice your body weight and any shock load you add by bouncing on it as you move upward). Bad! Don't do it the way the guy in Ben's photo a few posts earlier is doing it.
Chappy
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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I've donated to the ASCA a couple of times, but would really like to buy those volunteers a beer or three to thank them. I much appreciate their work.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 22, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
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RIP Scott
Hopefully as a community we can learn and then educate each other to help avoid the same fate.
A few scattered thoughts.
Most have already been stated but bear with me.
Redundancy
redundancy is our main concern with all anchors when we are climbing with a partner; traditional climbing. We make every effort to back up the belay anchor with 1 or even 2 redundant points. Even when the anchor looks "bomber". When we're leading we really don't want to fall with only one piece of pro.
Roped solo climbing while only running the rope through 1 anchor has no redundancy.
Roped solo climbing with always two connections for the rope has some redundancy.
Free solo climbing has zero protection (obviously)
Corrosion and stress cracking of steels are closely related.
The tensile strength of most ferrous metals (all steels) is significantly reduced by corrosion. This can cause micro crack initiation under stresses far lower than the design stress. Once a micro crack is initiated it will grow.
Driving a split bolt into rock stresses the steel and more importantly, the stress doesn't get relieved. It is permanent.
Micro cracks under constant stress will continue to propagate.
Tightening a bolt in rock with a threaded swage device at least controls the stress better than whacking the head with a hammer. OVER tightening the nut/bolt will increase the rate of stress cracking.
However note the critical parameters for stress cracking:
 The difference in the diameter of the bolt and the hole. This is intuitively obvious as if the hole is too large there is NO stress on the bolt and it falls out. Consider that each bolt design is optimized for a particular hole size. Too large a hole and the bolt won't hold it's rated load. Too small a hole and the captured stress in the metal will be higher than the rated conditions. This will quicken stress cracking. The bolt is designed for a particular size hole.
- corrosion. This has three components: the specific chemical composition of the bolt, the amount of stress on the bolt AND the composition of any contaminants. Such as water. Or worse, water contaminated with acids or bases (depending upon concentration, temperature, steel composition etc either acids or bases can initiate or accelerate cracking).
Note that Mt Project specifically mentions water and bird poo on Life In Electric Larvae Land:
There is water at the base of this route and quite a bit of bird poo And the rock itself is dyed with runoff from bird poo which is visible in the photo.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/life-in-electric-larvae-land/107186124
And one more driver of corrosion: differences in metals which creates electrolytic junctions. All of the components in the bolt have to be selected as a system. It may be a bad idea to mix components from different manufacturers, especially if any of the component materials differ.
type of steel
Jeff Achey's article in Climbing has a couple of good paragraphs about this. Please note the Powers data sheet that was referenced earlier:
http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/06308.pdf
Zinc plated carbon steel is totally UN-acceptable for any outdoor Safety Of Life application. Any nick or scratch through the zinc will initiate corrosion in presence of (not distilled or pure) water.
So that leaves us with the significantly more expensive "Stainless" steels, 303 and 316. 304 is also common, particularly from Asia. 304 is much less "stainless" than 316
The quick takeaway is that for outdoor bolts only use 316 (the most expensive of course).
Examples: In corrosion sensitive (cosmetic or high stress) applications, high quality ship/yacht builders will never use 303/304 as it corrodes quickly in salt water/salt air. You can often spot "asian" 304 stainless steel in the sea side marina as it will not be as bright and after a few years will even develop patches of colored corrosion.
In the pharmaceutical industry the ONLY one of these we use is 316 as it has the highest corrosion resistance, but even it will corrode under some unusual conditions. We use even more expensive stainless steels for specialized applications. There have been some significant product recalls when an inadequate type of stainless steel was used in the manufacturing plant, or even worse in shipped products (304 is totally unacceptable for screws in orthopedic implants).
So the key variables we have control over:
For the bolter:
type of steel for the bolt, nut and hanger (cost)
size of hole
tightening torque
to a small extent, where we place the bolt. In a water smear is not a good idea if there's a suitable drier location. bird poop.....bad. mineral hot spring water....likely bad.
possibly sealant
A corollary: Non-stainless bolts in warm marine environments is about as bad as you can get. JTree bolts will likely last longer than Tuolumne Mdws bolts. A TM bolt in a water streak may not last as one nearby out of the water.
For the climber:
redundancy is the only thing we can do to increase our odds of success.
On Belay!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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High Traverse, I concur with everything you've got there. It all rings of truth, I think. Good thought about the not using different metals in the system, - that's how you make batteries, right? I'm sure you re right about the stress fracturing occurring, in a wedge style bolt, depending on how tight the bolt gets tightened. I've wondered about this very thing as well. Perhaps, tightening the bolt just enough to lock the system is the most optimal? Totally agree with the redundancy system, too!
That makes me wonder about what type of stainless the common bolt hangers are made from. Shouldn't this be matched with the same type of stainless steel bolts, as well. What we need is a metallurgist to know how critical all of this might be given enough aging of the bolt/hanger system.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Mar 22, 2015 - 11:31pm PT
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I think of this case like a freesoloer death, cuz so sketch the means employed.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 23, 2015 - 12:34am PT
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Healyje,
I think environmental factors are a very important component in the longevity of fixed protection. One of the areas where I do a lot of rebolting, Pinnacles National Park, doesn't see a lot of moisture. The majority of the plated 5-piece bolts I have pulled have shown very little signs of rust or deterioration in quality.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2015 - 01:29am PT
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Bhilden,
That just means the maintenance and replacement intervals will be longer, not that they aren't needed. Good on you for doing the work.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 23, 2015 - 06:49am PT
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There are a couple clues I look for on 3/8" wedge bolts, or any bolt that tightens down with a nut. The letter on the bolt will tell the length. Good bolts tighten down with just few turns. Too many threads on an "A"or "B" and you may only have 1/4" or so in good rock. I think the first 1/4-1/2" is probably damaged by the drilling, so I pull shallow bolts. Too many threads may also mean that the only reason the nut is tight is because it is bottomed out. A 3/8" threaded split-shaft I pulled last season was like that. I probably could have pulled it by simply stacking washers and re-tightening the nut back down. As it was, it slid right out with double tuning forks and spacers. (A 5/16" button head was replaced on the first rap of the R.A. in 2011. That is the 3/8" ASCA bolt/hanger on the left side of the anchor. It came out without much effort.)
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:38am PT
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That makes me wonder about what type of stainless the common bolt hangers are made from. Shouldn't this be matched with the same type of stainless steel bolts, as well. What we need is a metallurgist to know how critical all of this might be given enough aging of the bolt/hanger system.
In the normal passive condition bolts are supplied in the potential between 301 and 316L is virtually zero, the two voltages mostly overlap in the galvanic tables. In stationary water which might be the case for us then you might see 100mV but it´s unlikely and also unlikely electrolytic corrosion takes place.
The European (and UIAA) standard requires all parts of the anchor to be made of the same material anyway so if you buy a certified anchor it is irrelevant, that said most of the bolts available actually use subtly different grades due to the way they are made even though they will be marked 316.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:53am PT
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Jim T
What is your background of knowledge in this, may I ask, or what is your expertness? You sound credible, but how do you know this to be probably true, Please?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 23, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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Bhilden,
That just means the maintenance and replacement intervals will be longer, not that they aren't needed. Good on you for doing the work.
Healyje,
I think it is more than that. Because of the wet environment in your area and your experience replacing bolts, it is pretty clear to me that any plated anchor, regardless of age, is suspect.
In dryer areas like we have at Pinnacles National Park, stainless steel is still the preferred metal for anchors, but the majority of the 5-piece plated steel anchors are good. Yes, there needs to be maintenance, but we have pulled 60-year old Star Dryins which looked just fine. Some of the 20-year old plated 5-pieces look almost brand new.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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Clint,
Thanks for filling me in about Jim T.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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Bhilden - I think it is more than that. Because of the wet environment in your area and your experience replacing bolts, it is pretty clear to me that any plated anchor, regardless of age, is suspect.
In dryer areas like we have at Pinnacles National Park, stainless steel is still the preferred metal for anchors, but the majority of the 5-piece plated steel anchors are good. Yes, there needs to be maintenance, but we have pulled 60-year old Star Dryins which looked just fine. Some of the 20-year old plated 5-pieces look almost brand new.
I agree, wetter areas like ours really need to be on like a five or seven year maintenance sweep at minimum (or tackle a part of it every year and keep records on what you cover each year).
In really dry places I could easily see that out to a 15, 20 or even 25 year interval though I don't know in that case how the continuity of maintenance knowledge / records would happen.
Bummer when it comes down to bolts breaking for maintenance to happen but I think this idea of bolts requiring maintenance is really only recently sinking in to the larger demographic who, after 35 years of gyms, think all bolts are good and it must be someone else's job insuring that.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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JimT in your experience are most stainless hangers made from 316 or 301?
In my experience with obtaining stainless steel wedge bolts from suppliers like Concrete Fastening Systems http://www.confast.com/ is 301 is the most commonly available 'on the street' - just curious as to your opinion.
That site I referenced has great specs on shear and pullout strength in various grades of concrete, really interesting stuff.
301 is a sort of "poor mans" 304 as it lies effectively directly below 304 in the alloy mix but it has more carbon. 301 is cheaper (a bit) and better for deep drawing stuff like sinks and pots and pans so loads of stamping/pressing companies use it when they can instead of 304. The corrosion resistance is a bit worse but not a lot.
303 is a machining grade of 304 with suphur added, it suffers extremely badly from pitting corrosion, doesn´t like being bent sharply and has extremely poor weld strength. Some welded bolts were made of this in Austria which regrettably killed people. It´s use was prohibited in the older version of EN959 and the UIAA standard.
Hangers are usually 304 at least in Europe and 316 are also available from AustriAlpin and Raumer for example. Incidentally 316 hangers are more expensive to make than the difference in material price would suggest, the tool wear is considerably faster with 316 and the press tools cost a lot of money. The press tool costs are nearly nearly the same as the material costs in the average hanger.
Wedge bolts seem no longer on the market in 304 in Europe, the building codes require 316 for most work so the manufacturers don´t bother with making two grades. I haven´t seen any on the market for some years now.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
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Jim T.
Thank you for your knowledge, much appreciated.
Great question, too, Locker!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
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The stainless steel 5-piece (aka Power-Bolt) bolts are 304, they are not made in 316. To be highly specific, all components of these bolts are 304 except the expansion cone which is 303, and the washer which is 18-8 (you can find that info on page 3 of this PDF: http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/06914.pdf ).
Most stainless climbing hangers are 304. The exceptions are all Petzl hangers (and bolts), the "Marine grade" Fixe hangers, and Climbtech hangers (there may be more that are 316 but most are 304).
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 23, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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I think some of Climbtech's hangers were made from a 400 series stainless steel. At least a gob of them I got are (so my magnet test says...ha ha).
I wouldn't think pairing them with a 300 series anchor bolt would be a bad thing especially in the interior of the west...
Thoughts?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
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This is telling (from JimT above)
in Europe, the building codes require 316 for most work so the manufacturers don´t bother with making two grades This is VERY informative. To me, this means we should only be using 316.
Brian in SLC
I think some of Climbtech's hangers were made from a 400 series stainless steel Yes, the magnet test is a quick way to eliminate the 300 series. However many modern high tensile strength SSTs other than 400 series are magnetic to varying degrees.
A 400 series stainless would be an odd choice for a bolt. The main use for the 400 series SSTs is where it has to be hardened. Think knives, industrial cutters/choppers, sometimes injection molds. Hardening any part of a bolt would be an unnecessary expense and might even reduce its longevity as 400 series ssts are much less corrosion resistant than nearly any other sst.
The "ideal" series stainless steels in my mind are the precipitation hardening series such as 17-4PH. These steels are specifically designed for high strength, hardenable, highly corrosion resistant applications.
These steels were originally created for submarine propellor shafts.
However, they are VERY expensive, in material cost and especially fabrication cost. They are the devil to cut and nearly impossible to form (as they harden with forming).
They can be hardened to just about any hardness up to their designed max so one could make bolts of optimum hardness and ductility. However, no one would be able to afford them.
We've used PH ssts a lot in very specific pharmaceutical manufacturing tools. Even in that very high cost industry PH ssts are only used when necessary. Especially for dry bearings (lubricants and your favorite inhaled drug don't go together!), fluid pumps etc, sometimes extrusion dies.
There's a machine shop owner in SoCal who's very likely going to prison for knowingly substituting some other SST than the specified sst for orthopedic implant screws. Guess what? They were weaker than required AND they stress cracked when micro cracks were initiated by "body juices". It's a helluva mess.
The FDA is also after the implant maker because they didn't adequately test their incoming screws.
D'OH!!
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Mar 24, 2015 - 01:06am PT
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300 series becomes magnetic when it is formed, all my 304 and 316 glue-in bolts are magnetic. The trace ferrite transforms in martensite when the material is bent. 2205 which we also use is magnetic anyway as it´s a duplex steel. It´s a pain in the butt when I take my stuff to the morons at the scrap company.
17-4PH (1.4542 to us guys) wouldn´t be my choice, it´s a precipitation hardening martensitic and while it might be nice to be able to choose the hardness of the end product (though I can´t think why at the moment) it´s corrosion resistance is only the same as 304 at a high price.
8926 (1.4529) is the better material for considerably improved corrosion resistance at a vastly higher cost, wedge bolts are anyway commercially available in this material.Around $30 each.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Mar 24, 2015 - 05:29am PT
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The last pitch straight up variation of Cryin' Time Again has 5/16 button heads.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 25, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
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Here is another example from today that clearly demonstrates that you really do not know what is going on behind the hanger. Belay bolt from Echo Rock at Josh.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 25, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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Yeah, not one of the stronger bolt designs for that size hole.
At least you get a partial idea of the bolt design once you remove the hanger (but not observable to someone who is just clipping it).
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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There is a route at Tollhouse Rock by the name of Brains, that has the type of bolt that Dimes is
exhibiting in those 2 photos, only it's not a 1/2" bolt, but a 3/8" bolt. Somebody thought they were
doing a good job by re-bolting the route with these. It had 1/4" button heads before.
What would you least trust?
This is on my to do list.
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
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We've had a few older 1/4 and 5/16 bolts fail, but no failures on the newer 3/8 five piece bolts - correct?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 25, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
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I know people who have sheared the heads off of 3/8" 5 piece bolts when trying to install them. (Overtorquing).
There was also an accident at Pinnacles (Feed the Beast) where one of them unscrewed from the cone and pulled out. Solution was to glue the threads with Lock-tite. Then later glue-in bolts were installed.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Mar 25, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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Rust in peace.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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13-15 foot pounds is not much pull with a 12" long wrench. That same 12-15 foot pounds is a pretty firm pull with a 4" wrench. Spot checking with a torque wrench is a good idea.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Mar 26, 2015 - 08:25am PT
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D2RE2 you just love to hate, don't you?
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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Hey guys, have another look at Dimes bolt and hanger, because that's not a, so called, 5 piece 1/2" bolt, but a 3/8" screw with a thin sleeve, at least I think?
What I'm talking about, in my previous post, is a 5/16" screw in a thin sleeve that needs a hole drilled for it of 3/8". The hanger rests on 5/16" screw stock, and thin sheet metal sleeve. How strong could this possibly be?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 26, 2015 - 09:12am PT
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If one is trying to figure out if you have stainless steel, the magnet is not the way.
To best figure out if something is stainless, you need to use "gun blueing", pick up a tube at your local gun store.... dab on a bit, if it turns dark..... you don't have stainless.
After almost 30 years in the Ball Bearing industry that was one of the tools I use, mostly when dealing with unmarked miniature ball bearings.
This is a really good thread, thinking about this is very important subject is key to our future safety.
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Brian
climber
California
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Mar 26, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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Those last photos by Dimes are deeply, deeply disturbing.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2015 - 11:49am PT
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That's not a 5-piece, it's a 3/8" Lok-bolt type design. These are super weak, barely better than a 1/4" button head.
http://www.powers.com/product_06160.php
The ultimate strength is only 2440 lbs shear/2700 lbs tension. Compare that to 2090 lbs shear for a 1/4" button head (1760 tension).
Unfortunately those are found somewhat often.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 26, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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From the Powers bolt Greg referenced above:
Door and Window Frame Installations
• Mounting fixtures on walls
• Mounting of Handrails and Fencing
• Shelving and Storage
• Masonry Applications
• Electrical and Mechanical Attachments
my NOTE: not recommended for any structural/high strength use
Now the Power-Stud SD1
Structural connections, i.e., beam and column anchorage
• Safety-related attachments
• Interior applications / low level corrosion environment
• Tension zone applications, i.e., cable trays and strut, pipe supports, fire sprinklers • Seismic and wind loading
Which one would you trust after it's been in place 10 years?
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 26, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
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D2R2,
I also use a 4" wrench and a firm 3 finger pull, just on the shaft puts me right on. I think it would be difficult to do any real damage if you don't let your hand get out over the end. A 7" gear wrench can produce a tremendous amount of torque.
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Oso Flaco
Gym climber
Atascadero, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
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Regarding torquing anchor bolts:
I don't know for certain what the consequences are of under-torquing or over-torquing anchors, but I assume that under-torquing might create a weaker than desired "frictional adhesion" in the anchor and that it may be more prone to loosening. Over-torquing can obviously damage or destroy the bolt or if not that, maybe cause extra stress that could lead to corrosion. There were some posts earlier in the thread talking about stress corrosion cracking.
I think the best answer to whether or not a torque wrench should be used when installing bolts is, yes, it should be used.
Manufacturers place torquing specifications on the technical data sheets for their anchors and probably for good reason, so the bolt's performance is close to what they've specified in their data sheet.
I know torque wrenches are heavier and more expensive than an adjustable wrench or box-end wrench and they also require the proper socket, but consider it a good investment into a job well done rather than being cheap (don't wanna pony up the $25-30) and lazy (don't feel like carrying a few extra ounces). If the extra ounces deter us from packing it in for a long approach, then we should at least be calibrating our "pull" with the wrench we will be using so that we are close to the manufacturer specified torque.
They are another fun tool to use, and think about how good it feels to know you've done the best job possible in installing that new life-supporting hardware, both for yourself and for the others to follow. If people use them for building and structural applications, how much more should we be using them for our life-supporting anchors? Especially given that your health or life, as well as others, is often dependent on only a single one when leading off the ground or above a ledge.
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Oso Flaco
Gym climber
Atascadero, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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Given the cost of using higher grades of stainless such as those JimT mentioned above, I think it would be better to look at using titanium at that point. If that high grade SS wedge anchor really costs $30, titanium would be more affordable at that point and likely much more corrosion resistant. There is a company based out of the UK, called Titan I think, producing titanium glue-in anchors and other anchor hardware. Last I checked I think their bolts were selling for $10-12 a piece plus the shipping from the UK. That seems like a reasonable cost for something that will last a very very long time. Also, I've seen mechanical titanium anchors (hanger & bolt) on eBay, made by a company called Keith, that go for about $32 for a hanger/bolt set if my memory is close. They are a wedge type anchor, so not easily removed, granted it would be a very long time until they would need to be. I think removability over corrosion resistance is favorable for most climbing areas that will have people putting in time for checking and replacing them. For unmaintained areas and sea cliffs I think corrosion resistance is more important. But why not have both?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
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My partner cragnshag has been using 316 stainless wedge bolts for several years now - all our routes have them. At $2.50 or so each (before hanger), they are not much more expensive than 304 ($1 or so each last time I checked). My guess is that they are good for 200 years in good granite.
A torque wrench is not needed for every placement, if you use a short wrench like Roger has described, and you calibrate the force on your fingers with the short wrench against a regular torque wrench occasionally.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 26, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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As far as proper toque is concerned, for those of you who use Powers 5-piece SS bolts there is a grey, plastic washer between the bolt head and the washer which is designed to indicate proper torque. As you tighten the bolt, the grey washer gets squished. Stop tightening when it is visible from underneath the bolt head.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 26, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
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A torque wrench is not needed for every placement, if you use a short wrench like Roger has described, and you calibrate the force on your fingers with the short wrench against a regular torque wrench occasionally.
In mechanic terms Clint, the "calibration" is as follows:
Finger tight
hand tight
wrist tight
elbow tight
arm tight
shoulder tight
back tight
and body tight.
Your results may vary.
%^)
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Mar 27, 2015 - 02:47am PT
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My partner cragnshag has been using 316 stainless wedge bolts for several years now - all our routes have them. At $2.50 or so each (before hanger), they are not much more expensive than 304 ($1 or so each last time I checked). My guess is that they are good for 200 years in good granite.
A torque wrench is not needed for every placement, if you use a short wrench like Roger has described, and you calibrate the force on your fingers with the short wrench against a regular torque wrench occasionally.
Specifically with wedge bolts the torque is practically irrelevant. We have done a fair bit of testing on them and the strength/pull-out resistance doesn´t change whether they are torqued correctly, torqued and loosened or never tightened at all (in fact the strongest ones were never tightened but the difference is minimal.
The reason for the manufacturers torque specification for wedge bolts is the are classified as torque controlled anchors and the force applied by the correct torque ensures the anchor will hold its specified load. This saves pull testing on site.
For a M10 316ss wedge bolt ultimate failure is at 117Nm/86ft.lbs and the usual over-torqueing failure is at 92Nm/68ft.lbs when the small tabs on the clip shear off (this is when the bolt goes `soft´and starts to spin. This is designed in by the manufacturers so you can´t break or weaken the bolt by overtorquing at least according to our manufacturer who should know.
Typically these torque numbers are impossible with a normal spanner, however not all 316 bolts are equal, machined thread bolts are notoriously weak.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 06:57am PT
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Jim,
With 3/8" 5-piece stainless, if the hole is drilled properly, how many turns should it take to tighten a bolt? When the bolt starts going in hard and I can no longer get three turns I change bits. What do you think? I value your opinion.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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Greg Barnes, thanks for the info on the lok-bolt! I was pretty sure that these were really weak.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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Has anyone ever seen a steel 1/4" bolt that was or maybe still is being made by Rawl? I can't remember the name of this model of bolt, but the bolt is a single piece, looks like a big nail head, is 1 1/2" long and instead of using a split it has a crooked section in it's stem that jogs over at about 1' deep and then back in line again. This is a contraction bolt and driven in like a Rawl Drive. I once, nearly 25 years ago, experimented with these. I thought they were fairly strong, I think that they were suppose to be stronger than a Rawl-Drive on their specs. sheet. I put up a single pitch face climb with a Bosch. It went well. I think I had taken one short fall on the lead. I was going to come back and re-bolt the route the following weekend with 3/8" bolts. But when I came back to re-lead the route every single one of these S.O.B. mothers were snapped at the crook and would slide right out of the rock into your hand! I was totally wigged out, and totally pissed. At the first bolt, I had to try to down climb in a puckered state of mind. I had to re-lead the climb with the Bosch in tow all over again, and then patch all of these holes because of the locked piece of metal in the back of the holes. I called Rawl about it, and I told them that I was using them in granite (not telling them about the rock climbing!). They told me that they were designed for concrete only! I think the holes were tighter in hard rock than concrete. When you hammer a Rawl- Drive into concrete the bolt kind of tears its way into the concrete. Probably the same with this bolt, too. These apparently got way to stressed and then just snapped on their own. It was probably one of the stupidest ideas that I have ever had and could have cost me my life for sure!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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and could have cost me my life for sure! or the next guy's life. Good for you catching the problem and re-bolting.
I've always been suspicious of the split/bent bolts. The large amount of metal deformation can't possibly be a good thing. Convenient for putting broom hangers in your basement wall maybe.
Caveat Emptor
My comments on this thread are from my experience as a climber and as an equipment design engineer largely in the pharmaceutical equipment industry.
I've only drilled and placed one bolt on a route a friend was putting up on Hogsback at the Leap. It was so long ago I don't remember what sort of bolt. I was early in my career and understood little about the practical applications of steels.
I suspect that in 1976 bolts themselves were less specialized than now.
end Caveat
I'm learning a lot from this thread.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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What route did you drill the bolt on Fred?
Jimt thanks for sharing your knowledge. It's stuff like that that keeps me coming back.
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Matt's
climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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question-- do we know that the original bolt in question failed under body weight?
How do we know that some sort of weird high-impact fall didn't make it brake (ie, climber had stick-clipped the bolt and was climbing up to it without having taken up much slack out of the grigri; climber then falls a few feet, all within the context of very little rope in play)?
I ask because this tragic incident seems to be mobilizing people to reprioritize rebolting efforts.
best
matt
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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2 shoes, are you describing the Rawl Spike? Very low strength.
Depending on material, 1/4 x 1-1/4 version in 2000 psi concrete tests to 830 tensile, 1815 lbs shear.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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I have removed a few 1/4" Rawl Spikes during rebolting. I can't comments on their overall strength, but they were difficult to remove about the same as a 1/4" split shaft.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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couchmaster, yes you are correct. Looks nuts, huh?
2 shoes, are you describing the Rawl Spike? Very low strength.
Depending on material, 1/4 x 1-1/4 version in 2000 psi concrete tests to 830 tensile, 1815 lbs shear.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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question-- do we know that the original bolt in question failed under body weight? Matt,
We don't know exactly how he was loading it when it came out.
But if you look at Dan's photo, you can see it had been fully or almost fully cracked through for awhile, since rust covered the fracture.
So it probably wasn't strong enough for body weight.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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Convenient for putting broom hangers in your basement wall maybe.
I've seen bolts on climbs which were better used to attached the toilet paper hanger to a gas station cinder block wall.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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We all gotta wipe our ass on the wall once in a while.
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Oso Flaco
Gym climber
Atascadero, CA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 09:01am PT
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Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the great info about torquing and the very informative thread overall, it is much appreciated. My friend and I were discussing yesterday the installation of Fixe Triplex bolts. I mentioned that the bolt is designed to have the hanger installed over the sleeve and behind the lip on the front of the sleeve, using a 12+ mm holed hanger, which IMO is the one feature that sets it apart from other bolts since it enhances it's removability and is thus more sustainable by design. He prefers to install the hanger in front of the lip on the sleeve, using a 3/8" or 10mm hanger and adds an SS washer between the nut and hanger. The reason is the possibility of the anchor failing if the nut was loosened, as sometimes happens to bolts over time and after right-swinging falls. If the hanger is behind the lip on an un-tightened Triplex bolt and the the hanger is then loaded in tension (axially), theoretically, the hanger could pull the sleeve out and cause failure. I thought about this and think it is probably very unlikely to occur except maybe in the case where the anchor would be loaded totally in tension (completely parallel to it's axis) such as in installations on horizontal overhangs. Any thoughts?
Thank you, Aaron
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 28, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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My thought is to never alter the design on something that is a life safety product. I just buy the bigger hanger. Your son's life might someday depend on the quality of my work.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 10:19am PT
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Oso Flaco,
The Fixe Triplex was originally designed to be removable, using a 12mm hanger, with the sleeve going through the hanger.
Then a few of us began using them and started discussing the potential danger of accidental pullout if the nut loosened.
Those of us in the discussion, incl. Greg Barnes of ASCA and Kevin D. of Fixe USA, seemed to arrive at a consensus. It is safer to place the sleeve into the rock, flange flush to the rock, and use a 3/8" or 10mm hanger.
Greg wrote here in 2008: "For leaving them in the rock, the ASCA uses 10mm hole hangers above the top of the sleeve. If the nut loosens, the hanger will rotate, but the bolt will not pull out by clipping it and pulling out."
I first became aware of the issue while replacing bolts during a Mt. Woodson cleanup project, 2002. We had a batch of the new "Triplex" bolts. It didn't take us long to realize that installing with the sleeve through a 12mm hanger was a bad idea.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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Interesting thoughts on the Triplex installation. I'm still chewing on the idea.
Would be interested to read what others think about this idea?
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 28, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Aaron,
I misread your post. I was thinking you were using 1/2" 5-piece and removing the plastic sleeve so you could use the smaller hanger. I have heard of people doing this and I have always felt that plastic sleeve was put there for a reason. I have never placed a tri-plex so I can't really make a judgement, but what Kevin and Greg say makes sense. Maybe ask a Fixi engineer to respond.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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In regards to comments regarding the Fixe Tri-Plex bolt. The Fixe website has an instructional video which shows the bolt being placed thru the hanger. These are occasionally used here in Josh for replacing and are placed this way with blue Lock-Tite applied to the threads. Mostly we use the SS 1/2" 5 Piece Powers bolts. These have been found to be more durable on the more popular climbs and tend to suffer less hole erosion from constant falls and people hanging on the bolts, yes even on 5.7 climbs. Seems now days that hanging on gear is more in vogue, thereby putting more stress on the fixed gear than in the past.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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Hey treez, actually the bolt is screwed on to a handle with threads on it and used to drill an exact depth hole. Then you pull the bolt back out, remove it from the handle, put the pin in the bottom of the bolt as shown here and pound it in to the hole. That is how it obtains its pullout strength. The bolt with the hanger is then screwed in to the sleeve.
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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I replaced several of those on Roxon's Direct South Face, Direct Variation, last season.
With a regular tuning fork the bolt broke every time.( I was trying to pry the bolt out of the insert=not too smart) After I made a 1/2" tuning fork to get outside the insert they popped right out, insert and all. Many must have failed during placement or from falls because there were several large, kinda square, holes to patch. (Like hole chiseled out for finger locks) I will go back up and see how my patch job held up this season. All were replaced with ASCA SS 3/8" Powers 5-Piece in new holes.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 29, 2015 - 11:31pm PT
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As Treez pointed out the self-drive is pretty bogus as the cutting teeth(and I use that term loosely) are not hardened steel so they get dull very quickly. I have heard stories of having to use 5-6 of these just to get one(1) hole drilled deep enough for the pin and sleeve. That's not good in anyone's book.
Personally, I can't find anything positive about this type of bolt.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Mar 30, 2015 - 01:30am PT
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does anyone know what the advantages of that system would be
In climbing, no. If Petzl still sell them, then it's probably for cavers(?) - Petzl is a caving company as much as a climbing equipment one. The hole is drilled and sleeve and wedge inserted and hanger installed. The caver descends into the cave. However, on re-ascending takes the hanger off, leaving the sleeve in place. Subsequent teams just have to carry a bag of hangers and bolts. This works fine for cavers in an SRT system as the bolts are only for belays and occasionally re-belays and not for protection when leading as in a climbing application ie the caver is standing still at a belay or hanging on the rope at a re-belay, not climbing. The advantage (in the past in the UK, anyway) that it was less expensive to equip caves that way and that to some extent they could check the condition of the insert every time they placed a hanger. I seem to remember from my very limited contact with caves and cavers in Derbyshire that there was a certain pride in being able to rig a descent as quickly and efficiently as possible - that included being dextrous enough in the cold and wet and maybe wearing gloves to fit and tighten bolts and hangers. So in answer to treez' post, maybe 'reason' is a better word than 'advantage'.
When climbers started to use bolts on the crags they just borrowed this system (I mean the type of bolt) from cavers as they didn't really know any better.
I said somewhere above that these things are still in use in climbing applications in France on lots of crags - by this I mean that there are still lots of them in place and NOT that they are still being placed.
I've placed quite a few of these in the past and often one placement would require several sleeves to obtain just one hole as the teeth would just break off - exactly as someone said above.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 30, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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We used those self-drillers for a while a long time ago. How many you had to use to get a hole depended (obviously) on the hardness of the rock you were drilling in, but they worked well enough in desert granite.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 30, 2015 - 08:04am PT
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I feel like I need to defend the use of Self-drives in their subterranean applications.
I used these self-drives, with 3/8" SS cap screws of grade five hardness, in limestone caves back in the 70's and early 80's. Cap screws tighten with allen wrenches.We would coat the inserts with a little bit of axle grease after they had been drilled and set. They actually work pretty decent, I think, for medium hard rock such as limestone. If the rock had been metamorphosed into a hard marble, it can be almost as hard as most granitic rock, and no better than drilling in granite. But, with the limestone, usually just one self-driving insert is needed, and because the teeth aren't dulling so badly the hole tend to stay tighter and rounder. The big advantage to the self-drive system is its cost. I remember picking up the 3/8" self-drives for as cheap as about 20 cents, I think. Drivers could be custom made from 3/8" grade 8 bolts, and then epoxied into a large screw driver handle. But, they are actually quite strong in concrete and limestone. The Phillips brand "Red Heads" as they were called back then were rated in concrete construction at about 4,100 lb. shear and pull out both. So, these were seen as a very viable application during that period of times, and were thought to be quite strong, as long as the placement wasn't botched! One needed to be mentored in the usage of these Red Heads, and this training was a proud moment, indeed. I don't remember hearing of any failures due to this system that seen by far the most usage, again, in limestone caves. Sometimes monster 1/2" or even 5/8" self-drives were installed if more depth and diameter was needed because of the chossyness of the rock. These could be rated at something like 9,000 to 12,000 lb. in 5,000 P.S.I. concrete. The rock was the weakest link, no doubt, and they were placed in often very wide main anchor belays for the redundancy.
They needed a certain intuition as to the depth to drill the things or you could have them protruding from the hole after you had set them, very embarrassing moment, indeed. It was better to measure and mark the inserts with a vibrating metal etching pen, or the like, but even the bottom of the hole needed to be carefully monitored to make sure that a cone of un-drilled rock had not been left in place, or any debris of any sort.
There is a way to extract these inserts by making a makeshift, sort of like, internal gear puller. You need to cut at least 2-3 pieces of grade 8 - 5/16" round stock off of a long bolt. These need to be of about 1/4" length to about 1/2" length. Then after filing the thread stock off of these little plugs you drop the shortest one into the insert first and then follow it with a modified cap screw that is about 1/2" longer than what it can possibly be. This modification needs to be done to the nose of this grade 8 cap screw by filing or grinding the threads off of about the first 1/2" of it. A little bottle of liquid wrench will be found to be very useful to start the process. It a pretty simple little kit to build,have, and use with a little bit of patience.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 30, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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Wow! Did I kill this thread again!
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Mar 30, 2015 - 11:50am PT
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"Did I kill this thread again?"
lol
I always feel that way as well when I post and nobody responds. This is a good topic. I hope it keeps going as I'm learning from it.
Erik
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
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Here's some of the self-drive arsenal from back when we used to place them.
L to R:
* 1/2 inch self drive bolt w/cone.
* Older holder all mushroomed out with 3/8" self-drive on it.
* The "next" holder (mushroomed but can't see it), which was stainless 3/8" rod with thread on the end and pvc grip. Seemed to work okay.
* 1" Titanium holder with threaded rod interface to bolt. A friend of mine made that for me at work one day because he got bored. :-)
Never really missed giving up on these and going to the Pika and Hurricane drills that held regular SDS bits and started using Rawl 5-piece bolts.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 30, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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The one's on Rixon's had the type of bolt that were made to have the head snap off so there was nothing to get a wrench on. I had no idea what I was trying to pull till I got one out in one piece.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 30, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
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Yeah, Steelmnkey. Nice looking homemade drivers. Poor mans drivers! Where did you use these drivers?
I like 36 volt Bosch compact now! 6 lb. Drill all day long 15 seconds a hole and with precision.
Roger Brown. Yeah, those were those self-drive snap-offs. They would snap off irregular and with a sharp edge on top. I think you were suppose to set them and just snap off the top with a twist of your driver. All of these set ups are inferior in granite, though!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Mar 31, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
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I had no idea that I could just knock stuff completely dead!
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PaulR
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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I'm going to make a guess as to why these button heads break. JUST A GUESS! The split and deformation in the shaft is produced while the metal is very hot, red hot, and very ductile. The button head is then heat treated to harden the metal and lock in the deformation. This is why there are few stainless button heads, heat treatable stainless is expensive. This process makes the metal stronger and more brittle.
I'm going to speculate that as the bolt is driven in the force required to continue increases until the split section is fully in the rock, but the head is still sticking out. At that point you are hitting with maximum force. Any hammer blow that does not hit straight along the shaft will add a bending moment and possibly initiate a fracture. Remember the metal is brittle. Continued pounding can increase the fracture, but the the bolt will continue to go in.
The position of this bolt's fracture looks to be at a point where the insertion force has become maximum. It could be that one awkward hammer hit is all it takes to damage the bolt.
Many bolts can go for many years without a lead fall to test them. This may have been the first time anyone hung on that bolt.
Paul
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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PaulR,
Great guess! Your close. Try again!
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Paul,
Most, if not all the ones I find, have the break about at the half way mark on one side only. The split is always at the bottom end of the bolt. (a 3" long bolt or a 1-1/4" long bolt it is always at the bottom). The split is only near the top end on a short 1-1/4" bolt. Your point is well taken though, as it sure makes sence. I have at least 2500 bolts with thier hangers bagged and tagged here. It would be interesting to see if the cracked ones show signs of damage from off center hits. This season I will start putting the cracked/broken ones in a separate container. I will be replacing mostly 5/16" button heads this season.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Please humor my ignorance here, but I thought that split shaft bolts were ductile and springy, not brittle. Compressing the split would cause the expanded parts of the shaft to press against the walls of the hole like two leaf springs. This is what keeps the bolt from coming out. If the act of driving them in, caused stress fractures or points of weakness, it would call into question the very design of these bolts. And if the design is so inherently flawed, why haven't more of them failed?
Maybe there is enough variation in the manufacturing process to account for some weaker than normal units. I suppose it's a good thing each piece of climbing hardware is individually tested, unlike construction fasteners.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Urmas,
I think you're asking the right questions.
I had talked to Ed Leeper on more than one occasion about his hangers, and about problems in Rawl-drive 1/4".
Ed was so knowledgable on all of these materials one would have thought he might have been a materials scientist, or at the least, a metallurgist. He assured me he was not. But, he had a friend who was a metallurgist. He could really talk this stuff. I had only taken high school and Jr. college level metal shops and welding shops, a little bit of Applied Physics. But, I have long had a general interest in bolting techniques.
Ed had told me that they were discovering through time that all of these hard metals, chrome-moly pitons, hangers, and even Rawl-Drive compaction bolts, that are indeed like spring steel alloy, if they were put in a bent configuration, that in time, stress fractures would slowly happen. These can be microscopic, at least at first. And then corrosion will chase these clean little fractures and soon rust through. The corrosion was governed by how much moisture was present, but also governed by and dependent on things like acidity, and even the ozone which is more abundant at the very top of the inversion layers. If you think about this idea and study these old bolts and hangers with the aid of 10 power magnification, I think it becomes apparent that this is the probably the main cause. There may be other factors that are unforeseen as well.
I believe this is what he was laying out to me over 24-25 years ago when we were just first starting to have Leeper hanger troubles. I remember him saying that he had originally designed the Chrome-moly Leeper hangers for aid only, and with the idea of a dynamic hip belay only. He reiterated that they had never been thought to be used with a belay plate, or even for use as for free climbing.
25 years ago nobody could imagine that 5/16" Rawls would ever experience this problem. I felt this was eventually going to happen, I just didn't think it would be a problem this soon.
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PaulR
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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If the material is too ductile the shaft will conform to the hole and lose the spring required to keep it from pulling out. The split is put into the shaft when it is ductile. One poster indicated that tapering the top of the hole is supposed to be part of the installation. A taper would help to distribute stress from off axis hammer blows. Stress fractures require an event to initiate a small crack, maybe microscopic, they take time to form. The micro crack also needs to be in an area of sustained stress. This bolt broke near such an area.
There are multiple ways for these systems to fail, this is a suggestion for this accident.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Paul,
That sounds correct. You're correct about the bevel on the top edge of granite. The harder the granite, the easier it is to dinner plate the surface. It's a lot like hard clear ice is when trying to strike it too hard with the ice tool. Softer rocks, not as much need for the bevel or chamfered edge.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
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Here's some info on the current version of the buttonhead (the Powers "Drive" bolt). I don't know if everything is exactly the same as 25 years ago before Powers bought Rawl (and now Black & Decker has purchased Powers):
Anchor Body: Heat Treated AISI 1018
Zinc Plating: ASTM B633, SC1, Type III (Fe/Zn 5)
That's from here:
http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/03601.pdf
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Greg,
Thanks for that link. I was asked long ago "why 10 diameters from the old hole" and I said I didn't know for sure, but that is what I do. Maybe you told me or I learned it as a construction worker. Replacing 5/16" and not able to use old hole means 3-1/4" from the old hole to the new hole. Good stuff to know.
Edit: Replacing 5/16" with 3/8" means 3-3/4" I guess at 4" (wrench length)
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2015 - 03:46pm PT
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Roger, most bolters use well more than 10 bolt diameters from other bolts (less than 4" looks way too close to most climbers particularly with 2 anchor bolts), although in good granite you could probably do less than 10 with no problems.
I'm a bit leery of a blanket endorsement of the (concrete) 10 diameters rule without considering all the factors of the placement, particularly horizontal planes in sandstone or other relatively weak rock. Even granite can have bands/fracture planes/etc.
Anyway here's an example of the kind of thing that can happen if you don't consider weak rock:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/106570866
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PaulR
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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1018 steel is medium a carbon (.18% C, balance Fe) steel. It can be heat treated, but not to the point of being like glass. Very common stuff. The plating is easily scrapped off.
A crack can also grow from stress cycling due to temperature cycling. This could lead to fatigue failure. The rock and the bolt expand at different rates. 9125 days is not that many cycles, unless the stresses are high. Of course, hanging and a few falls would accelerate the process.
Paul
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Roger,
That old adage about 10 bolt diameters from the nearest hole is for concrete, and construction work, and doesn't necessarily apply in a life and death situation. I usually go at least 10" from the nearest hole, and sometimes farther when in doubt (especially if there are any apparent cracks close by).
There have been a few instances of 2 bolt belay rock chunks just calving off taking the climbers with them. Why not go with a less risky strategy? The pressure that a bolt exerts within the rock, I believe, can sometimes make small stress fractures below the surface of the rock, working larger in time. 20 and 30 years ago it was more common to separate the belay anchors as much as 2 feet and wider. This came about after single bolt anchors had failed taking sometimes the 2 man team down with it.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Greg,
I go 4" from an old hole if it is un-useable. I go 9" between bolts at anchors. (tip of little finger to tip of thumb. I like an anchor spread out a bit. I don't feel too good about those close together anchors I find.
Edit;
Greg,
I am pretty pickey and study the placements real well.
2 shoes,
Yea, I would prefer to go further but there are so many factors to consider. I really worry about about making the clip easier or harder, thus changing someones masterpiece. I do stuff like to try going away or closer at a 45 degree angle so as to not change the difficulty. I really anguish over this stuff when I cannot use the same hole. With the modern pulling tools available today, I am happy to say there is seldom a need to move a hole.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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One thing that Ed Leeper made clear to me was how important he thought it was to mix batches of bolts, to protect any single climb from having a string of bad batch bolts. He thought it better to even mix different styles of bolts. I thought it at least sounded like an intelligent way of thinking.
Locker, I've never been the life of the party! Maybe you can sell me a few of your jokes! You've really got a gift you know.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Speaking of anchors,
My choice would be 12" apart with a 3rd bolt on big wall anchors.
My choice, again, would be 9" on free climbs because that is near perfect with ASCA double ring hangers, and a 3rd bolt 12" away in the direction of the route to act as a directional so as not to load the anchor in case of a leader fall before protection can be placed. That is how I would do my anchors if it was my first ascent. But I am a bolt replacer; I replace bolts in existing holes, but........I aways add a 2nd bolt at 1 bolt anchors if back-up cannot be placed.
Yea, I ADD BOLTS!!
Fire away.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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You mean you're a retro-bolter? Whoa!
Roger, I've seen at least once where a bolt has gotten pulled, re-drilled and then very small surface cracks had appeared, in time, at least I had thought so. Not sure if they could have been there even before, but maybe the tiny hairline cracks had grow just enough to be more evident?
I've seen one top rope anchor set up very apparently make some more cracks. The rock on the top of this one big boulder was a bit hollow sounding.
There was another climb that I belayed a buddy on, and he climbed up the steep front face of this huge free standing flake that was just perched up against the middle of this 200' wall. He had climbed a 30 foot 5.8 off-width, started up the flake, getting a little pro here and there. Got to a descent stance and, pulled up the drill in tow, drills a single 3/8' wedge style bolt right in the center of this 30' tall x 15' wide x 2' thick flake. Bolt goes in nice he gets to the top of this flake, gets pro at his feet, plus one bolt up high on the main face, and then brings me up, to finish the short steep face above. I came back to repeat this nice little 5.10a about a year later, and lo and behold, that single bolt in the middle of the flake has a hairline crack running diagonally completely across the flake intersecting the bolt. Again, this had occurred during that one year! Just goes to show you the power a bolt can exert. I'm sure there had been no crack when I had followed up the first year.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Two-shoes,
There are lots of questions and I beat myself up pretty bad seeking out the best solutions. I worry about damaging the rock or drilling a bad hole. I am always looking for a better way, never a easier or faster way. 1 a day or 10 a day, is all the same to me. Lately the direction has been to not even scar the rock at all. I have been making long, thin, wide tuning forks in my shop and using 2 from opposing sides slowing working them in to lift the hanger just enough to slide in a thin aluminum spacer. Then driving them again but now all work is done between the spacer or spacers and the hanger. Hopefully this approach of pressing the spacer down againist the rock while the equal pressure is forcing the hanger up will keep damage to a minimum. We have come a long ways from the crowbar days of the past. Even the #4 lost arrow tuning forks that are the standard are being pushed aside as being too violent as they tend to bend the bolt and spawl out the hole. Replacing a bolt and having someone trust their life to my work is something I don't take lightly. You can rest assured I am doing some of my best work out there.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Roger, I totally agree, You are doing a great job. I know that you don't get enough praise, but thank you! Thank you!
You have a background as a carpenter, am I remembering correctly? I have used a sort of straight bladed claw hammer for many years to remove bolts. I slot the blades so that they will accommodate a 5/16" Rawl bolt. much like the lost arrows have been revamped. After I drive this hammer under the bolt just a little, with the aid of my trusty Yo, I then drive the head area of my claw hammer straight down. Bolts will pop right out very easily. Anyone who has seen this system would like it, I believe. Easy to make for a machinist. If you have a few diamond bits and a big Dremel Moto Tool you can do it yourself, if you hold your tongue right.
I like your thoughts on protecting the rock face. How would a 6" slotted flexible painter's broad knife work for an operation like that? The aluminum must take a pounding, no?
Do you have any good ideas on granite patch work? Thanks in advance!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Thank you Clint! Most informative video.
Roger, I like your system. I notice that you don't wear any ear protection. Save those ears of yours. That stuff will make your ears ring!
Roger, I have a question for you? What if a Bosch pneumatic-actuated drill could be taken apart and made to drive by a brace-and-bit modification, so that there was now no electric motor, only your own body power, wouldn't this be legal (if it was feasible to make?) I think it could be as light as about 5 lb drill possibly.
Again, not motorized!
Just a brain fart I came up with.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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two-shoes,
I made reamer out of a 1/2" to 3/8" Hilti power tool adapter re-worked to fit a snap-on rachet wrench this off season to replace my old one made from a worn out wilderness drill and lower quality rachet wrench. I needed something a little heavier and more quality. Reaming out that first inch or so on 5/16" holes solves the stuck bit problem but it is a real workout with a drill bit. Good I guess, if you want a deformed fore arm like Pop-Eye:-) I have been working the thought of a hand drill where as you turn, the bit is lifted and a spring drives the bit back down when you reach the top of the throw. Hand impact driver? I am waiting for a ratchet tap handle to arrive UPS today to work with a modified HHS 3/8" reamer (can't afford Carbide till I test it) that I hope to try out next week in the valley on 5/16" buttonheads. I like your idea of re-working a power hammer drill to replace the motor with human power. I will be looking for a broken Bosch Bulldog at garage sales :-) Maybe post today on the Craiglist Wanted section. My wife will be feeding me dinner in the shop now. LOL There are a lot of really smart people here on SuperTopo, maybe someone will pick up on our ideas and run with them.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Roger,
I just e-mailed you with an idea. Will be eager to hear from you.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Wow, I had forgotten about the reaming difficulties;
had just been thinking about how to get the 5/16" out.
I remember now doing one at the first belay on Ankles Away -
it took me a really long time.
I imagine Roger has already looked into drill bit tips with 4 points
instead of 2 points?
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Clint,
I tried one of those a friend me gave as a gift and I chipped one of the 4 the first day. I have been reaming with a solid carbide Bosch Extreem that Greg gave me a while back. Those don't chip but they ream pretty slow and take a lot of downward pressure. I reamed one out hanging under a roof last summer and it damn near did me under. I knew then that there had to be a better way. We will have fun trying out the new toys this season.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Bruce,
Oh yea,
That is the one, but at $104.10 for 3/8" diameter is too much till I know for sure if it will even work.
I got one from ENCO in Reno in High Speed Steel for $11.03 delivered. (15% off+free shipping)
I locked it in an old Jacobs 1/2" chuck secured with a set screw and drilled in a set screw for the 3/8x24 bolt at the other end and will lock the ratcheting tap handle in the bolt end today.
You need a handle of some sort as it will be really hard to turn.
(power drilling would never be able to control the amount of rock to be removed as these things are made for a lathe or milling machine.)
The problem I see is the cutting action is at the sides vs. a drill that cuts only at the end. (the problem with trying to ream with the "ol Bulldog") I know you are a hand driller, not suggesting otherwise:-) Just a little general info. for some of our friends who are not.
I will keep you up to date on what happens when I try it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I have had a real problem with Rawl power stud Part# 307312 I have placed about 100 of these bolts and had about 6 of them loosen up. The cone is at a steep angle compared to red head WW-3830 and hilti Qwick bolt 3. My feeling is the collar pops off the cone and the bolt loosens up. they are still a bitch to clean at that point but with a lot of wiggeling and patience you can often get them out without special tools. pretty effin scary! In at least 2 cases I suspect that they were spinners and someone without a wrench tried to tighten them up by tapping in with a rock? this will pop the collar off the cone and with the sharp angle of the cone on the Rawl Power wedge no ammount of wrenching will make it catch again. it just becomes a loose ratteling mess. when you look at the specs for this bolt it is NOT rated for use in stone.http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/07424CS.pdf the Red head WW-3830 that I am useing now is rated for both concrete and stone. It has a much shallower angle on the cone as does the Hilti kwick Bolt3
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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I have friends who swear by those, while I prefer the 5 piece. I am not sure if the power-stud has a letter on the top to tell you it's length or if that is a thing of the past. An "A" is the shortest and may have only 3/4" or so in the rock. I have always felt that however the hole is drilled, that first 1/4-1/2" of rock may be damaged and not totally up to par.
That said, I really think that everyone out there placing or replacing bolts is trying to do the very best job they can. There are just so many issues to deal with and so much information to "need to know"
I hand drill and I feel it is pretty much brainless. (Great for me)
Where as with power drilling, it so easy to mess up that perfect hole the thing was meant to produce. Just last year at work I was chastized for letting the bit chatter at the bottom of the hole. I was just trying to make sure the hole was, for sure, at the required depth. I never heard of that before, but after a lesson of how a hammer drill works, it made sense.
Like, it is way hard to ream out a hole a little, when all the cutting is done at the tip, nothing on the sides. Can we really expect that young climber to know all this stuff when Dad gave him that new Bulldog for Christmas? I generally keep these fears to myself, but this thread seems like a great place air my fears and give everyone a chance correct me if I got stuff wrong.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I may be wrong but I think the rawl power wedge changed about 5 years ago. anyways after haveing 5 for certain that i know of fail I don't trust them at all. when reserching a wedge bolt to replace them with i noticed that red head has some wedge bolts rated for concrete only and some rated for concrete and stone. the one rated for both stone and concrete has a shallow angle on the cone as does the hilti kwick bolt 3 and the fixe. the red head only rated for concrete has the same sharp angle cone as the power wedge.
I used to think I drilled better hole by hand but now that I have a bosch i am a believer in power drills. I do think the #1 contributer to crappy placements is drilling on lead under stress. I do however still lead bolt a fair bit. If i screw it up too badly i go back after and fix it with a 10mm Fixe glue in.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Tradman,
Myself, I think some bolts should never be drilled by hand. Using a micrometer I have checked the difference (I don't spell too good) between the bolt and the the part that grabs and I was amazed at how perfect the hole has to be on some bolts for them to grab properly. The holes that those Hilti's at work make are tight, so tight I am not sure I would even try to drive a 5-piece into them. In fact, I have never placed a 5-piece at work. I use whatever comes in the work package and an inspector checks that, the hole, and everything else before we even place the bolt. If I remember right, we have even used 8000psi concrete in some cases. I don't think even God could hand drill a hole as tight as some power drills:-)
The Fixi one's with the rubber washer were the least forgiving and the 5-piece the most forgiving. This summer I hope to Mic. the inside of some of my hand drilled holes to see how I am doing. I spot check and the 5-piece always reach torque in less than 3 complete turns of the wrench. I feel it would hard to mess up a 5-piece hand drilling. I remember having to use a 3# single jack to drive a 3/8 button head into the slab at work back in the day. Yea, I'm kinda old. I remember Richie and I driving 3"x3/8" buttonheads in with Yose. hammers 11 years ago this month and it was kicking our ass. We laughed about it at breakfast the morning of his accident:-((((( Damn-it, that brings a tear..........
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I think when the bit gets worn out with the bosch it drills too tight a hole.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Tradmanclimbs,
yes, I agree. If the drill bit gets worn, it gets too narrow. What happens with a Rawl 5-piece is that the cone on the end of the bolt gets compressed too much and when you try to tighten the bolt it just stop and the cone starts spinning in the hole.
The big lesson here is to replace worn drill bits!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Get on some chossy rock and that same worn out drill bit will drill the hole oversized too.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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two shoes/ Fixe? what is your take on the rawl power wedge loosening up and the sparp angle of the cone on that bolt? And the fact that they do not rate it for stone?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2015 - 07:48am PT
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Here's an old and a new (cone textured) stainless power-stud. Old from early 2000s? New from 3 or 4 years ago? The old is a 304ss while the new is 316ss, so I don't know if there were differences between metal types.
The new generally "looks" weaker since the sleeve is thin and moves around a lot. However I tried to over-torque a couple in a test rock and they didn't break easily - in fact I had difficulty breaking them by over-torquing even when I really cranked (bolt must be stretching).
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Dimes
Social climber
Retired from Everything
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Here is something I have not seen before in Josh. A "carrot" as they were called in Australia back in the 90's. Removed this week out at Echo Rock. There was no hanger on it, but you could have cinched the cable from a wired stopper around it. Once again, you just cannot tell by looking at the outer, exposed part what is behind it.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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I think when the bit gets worn out with the bosch it drills too tight a hole.
That's when the holes are just about perfect for the soft rock I usually drill into.
Soft rock ideal is a slightly worn drill, tight hole, Powers 5-Piece.
Another trick (again, soft rock only) is to snug up the sleeve onto the cone, just a tad, so it's visibly riding up the cone a bit and just barely touching the rock, before tapping it into place. Recheck this a couple times while drilling (while hammering, the parts try to shake loose). Seems if the sleeve is scraping on the rock it forms a slight groove/scratch down the hole and thus resists spinning once the bolt is all the way in and being tightened up. YMMV...
EDIT: Dimes, that "carrot" is classic!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Greg Barnes wrote:
The new generally "looks" weaker since the sleeve is thin and moves around a lot. However I tried to over-torque a couple in a test rock and they didn't break easily - in fact I had difficulty breaking them by over-torquing even when I really cranked (bolt must be stretching).
When I have broken these by over tightening them they shear off at the top of the cone where the diameter of the bolt is the thinnest. In looking at the photo you provided it seems like one of the advantages of having a thinner sleeve with the new bolt is that the diameter where the cone necks down is slightly greater. That might be the reason it was hard for you to break the new design.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Greg,
Here is some stuff I found out:
There are over 150 types of Stainless Steel. Mostly only about 15 types are ever used.
304 SS will tarnish only very superficially over a long period of time, unless it is in a highly corrosive environment, such as the sea coast. 304 is suppose to have a little better structural advantages and durability from working than other grades. 304 SS also known as 18/18 and is the most widely used of about the 6 most used stainless steels. It is composed roughly of 18% chromium 8% nickel
316 SS will stand up to a much greater amount of corrosion, and will still corrode at the sea coast. It is composed roughly of 16% chromium 10% nickel 2% molybdenum.
All 200-300 series SS is made of an annealed austenite structure of iron and is non-magnetic, but work hardening can make austenitic iron slightly magnetic
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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tradesmanclimbs,
One thing I didn't get is the Rawl Power Wedge, a steel bolt or, stainless steel?
If it isn't rated for stone, then It probably wasn't designed for hard stone at least. Maybe it has a hard time grabbing the hard polished stone? Is it in granite? Is the stone harder than usually, or softer than usual? What about the drill that was used, was it a new drill, or a worn out drill? Just trying to think of different factors that could change the variant enough to cause this malfunction of the mechanism.
If they are steel bolts then the sliding sleeve could be rusted to the cone part, and it could be a real problem to get to slide up the sleeve and get it to grab hold of the rock again.
I've seen this happen to a few True Bolt wedges that were 304 SS. They had become loose and the hangers were spinning. Folks tried to tighten them up and they weren't really grabbing to any real extent. Now there is some dangerous length of threads protruding from the rock. I'm going to try to remember to take my hammer and wrench next time to see if I can reset the darn things at a deeper depth. I'm not sure what happened in the these few instances? Wondering if maybe they were a little over tightened from the git-go? This is a really icy little gorge in the Winter and was wondering if water could have gotten in back of the hole and did some frost-wedge-hydraulic-jacking of the bolt itself?
Anybody have any ideas?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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Sorry, wrote that poorly. I know a lot about the differences between 304 and 316, what I was trying to say that since Powers made the Power-Stud in both 304 and 316 with each generation of bolt, but I only have a sample of 304 from the older generation and 316 from the newer, there's a chance that the design varied slightly between metal types for each generation. Probably not significant, but on the other hand you never know.
There are a million other sleeve bolts, this is just one manufacturer, and a lot of them look very sketchy (often bought at the local hardware store). Some of the cheapo ones look like the sleeve will fall off just for the heck of it...
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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two-shoes,
It is likely a "red herring" to try to identify if a bolt is "rated for stone" or "designed for stone" per the manufacturer (unless discussing climbing-specific manufacturers, such as, Petzl, Raumer, Fixe).
Powers, ITW Ramset/Redhead, Hilti, Confast, etc. design and manufacture their mechanical anchors for the construction industry. They are rating their bolts for concrete, hollow block, etc. They have no interest in stone. Probably less than 1/10th of 1% are installed in stone. Recommending for stone, with all of stone's variability/unpredictability would open them up for liability. Almost certainly, these manufacturers want to distance themselves from their bolts being used or approved for climbing purposes.
So, if you don't see a mechanical anchor "rated" or "designed" for stone, that only means that the manufacturer is intelligent enough to not publish any info.
Climbers are using these products "off-label", to borrow from pharmaceutical terminology.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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brand new!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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^^^^^^
And they should stay that way!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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I suspect that some/most wedge anchors which spin or fail to achieve torque quickly (4-5 turns), may be the result of debris in the hole.
At a minimum, the hole should be cleaned by blow, brush, blow, brush, and a final blow. (Assuming hard rock. The expansion force on the small surface area of the collar is tremedous and can crush softer rock inside the hole.)
25+ years ago, I was power drilling 5/16" buttonheads. Seemed like a huge upgrade from 1/4" at the time. Blowing the hole clean seemed good enough, and perhaps it was, for a Rawl (now Powers) "Drive" contraction bolt.
Around 1990, I switched to 3/8" Ramset/Redhead "TruBolt" SS wedge anchors. It took a while to realize that adding a brushing to the cleaning procedure removed much more debris. Still later, I discovered that alternating multiple brushings and blowings was necessary.
There is another wedge anchor installation problem, which I've encountered 2 or 3 times (out of hundreds). The expansion collar can get pushed above the cone and onto the shaft of the bolt. This can happen with the first few taps of the hammer, as the bolt enters the hole. The collar catches on the outer edge of the hole, expands slightly, and rides up over the ridge onto the shaft. This results in a botched placement, as the anchor will fail to achieve proper torque. Now I have learned to visually watch the bolt enter the hole for the first few hammer taps.
I'm currently installing 1/2" Hilti KB3 SS wedge anchors for belay/rap anchors. Luckily, in Baja there are no regulations about power drilling. A 1/2" x 4" hole takes one minute.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Juan Maderita,
Yeah, I'm sure you're right about that. I hadn't really thought about that. I know that construction workers do fire bolts occasionally into real rock, as well as backcountry installations by forest service, PGE, SCE, etc.
I remember hearing 25 years ago from a guy by the name of Phillip, who owned the Lucky brand U.S. distributorship, that Fixe bolts were made in Spain, just as Lucky bolts were, and used the same machinery that was in no way different than any other industrial construction bolt machinery. You could say all of these bolts are designed for rock, if you wanted to suffer the liability perhaps. Because, is there really any basic differences in any structure, or mechanics, of the bolts, whether they are construction grade or "made for climbing" grade, do you think? I would guess that they are basically the same.
I know the distributorship that we buy SS wedge bolts from in the greater Fresno area, sells most of these 3/8" x 2 1/4" bolts to climbers. I know because he invited me back to his office and acknowledge the fact in just so many words. For one thing, he knew that I wasn't your typical looking "jobber", so to speak. And another thing was he came back with at least a couple different models of Bosch battery operated rotary hammers, and a Panasonic that he thought that I might be game in purchasing! He does give us climbers what I think is a wholesale price, these guys like selling volume business.
Me and my buddies most always at least blow the holes out, unless we are just way too gripped! Maybe we should be brushing them, too? I've climbed with at least one person before, on many occasions, who doesn't believe in blowing the holes out. It is totally against my every fiber to not blow the hole out! But, I've watched him just drill many, many holes just extra deep and not blow the hole out at all! I haven't seen any problem with the initial installations, as of yet anyway.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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certainly looks to me as though i am not the only one who had the collar pop off the cone. Otherwise they would not have stippled the cone.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Stainless steel. thought that would be obvious by the part number 07312 I guess you have to add the smaller numbers so Powers 07312 304 ss
No recolection on age of drill bit but some were hand drilled, some power drilled. some in hard granit, some in softer shist. Shitty desighn INMOP with the very sharp angle of the cone. the bolt initialy tightened fine but after being loaded in falls or jerky rapelling the collar popped off the cone and the bolt became visibly loose to the point that it could be pulled 2/3rds of the way out of the hole with finger pressure/ no tools. Super effing scary!
Whomever said they don't rate for stone is talking out their ass. Redhead Truebolt WW-3830 rated for stone and concrete. they have annother wedge bolt that looks identicle to the powers bolts that failed that was rated for concrete only.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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two-shoes,
Absolutely, the hole should be thoroughly cleaned of dust and debris before installing a wedge anchor. Every manufacturer and knowledgeable source will state that. You will be amazed at how much crap comes out with brushing, even after you thought the hole was blown clean. I'm amazed at how much more is removed with a second brushing!
Better to risk a fall than botch a bolt placement. Lives depend on the first ascenionist installing bolts correctly.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I brush 3 or 4 times in between the blow tube. No it is not worth takeing a bad fall though. If its too scetchy don't get hurt. get something in and then go back and fix it on rapell if you feel it needs fixing.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Whomever said they don't rate for stone is talking out their ass. tradman,
I'd like to see your evidence that any of the major manufacturers of wedge anchors (Powers, ITW Ramset/Redhead, Hilti, Confast) rates or recommends their product for stone.
I'm backing up my statements with this info quoted from their websites and spec sheets:
ITW Redhead "Trubolt"
"SPECIFIED FOR ANCHORAGE INTO CONCRETE"
and "Anchors for Concrete Applications"
Hilti Kwik Bolt 3 (aka KB3)
"Base materials: Concrete (light weight), Concrete (uncracked), Masonry (grout-filled CMU)"
"Approved by ICC-ES for use in masonry and concrete"
Hilti Kwik Bolt TZ
"ase materials: Concrete (cracked), Concrete (light weight), Concrete (light weight over metal deck), Concrete (uncracked)"
Confast "ThunderStud"
"A wedge anchor is a type of fastener designed to be installed into solid concrete." "Applications: Light to heavy-duty into solid concrete."
Powers has several slightly different wedge anchors. I saw no reference to stone as a base material.
Powers "Power Stud"
"The Power-Stud anchor, is a fully threaded, torque-controlled, wedge expansion anchor. It is available in a threaded version suitable for applications in solid concrete and grout-filled concrete masonry"
Powers "Power Stud" SD2
"The Power-Stud+ SD2 anchor is a fully threaded, torque-controlled, wedge expansion anchor which is designed for consistent performance in cracked and uncracked concrete. Suitable base materials include normal-weight concrete, sand-lightweight concrete and concrete over steel deck."
The only reference that I found about stone was describing the attachment of stone to buildings in the construction industry. http://www.itwredhead.com/pdfs/RH_pdfs/RH_cat_021212.pdf
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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I've been brushing twice a day for a year with my new Sonicare, with baking soda and peroxide, and my hygienist says that I'm really doing a great job. Not getting any cavities at all! Hope that counts!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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DMT,
I think you have the issue of stone variability being the problem. How or why would a manufacturer want to tackle that when there is huge liability exposure and no profit?
On the issue of concrete, there is variability. That's why there are engineers, building inspectors, and testing of the concrete pour onsite in commercial construction. One of my climbing partners was a superintendent on a multi-million dollar job. There was a huge fiasco on one of the pours. A little too much water if I recall. An entire floor of a multi-story building had to be jackhammered out and re-poured.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Can't find it now. when I was looking for a replacement bolt for the power wedge after the failures I had with them I found a chart that listed a bunch of bolts with aplications. showed which ones were recomended for static, vibration, concrete only and concrete and stone combined.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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could not have been on the red head site because it listed rawl 5 piece as good for vibration and stone.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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tradesmanclimbs,
Are these routes overhanging somewhat?
I can see what you're talking about if someone tapped the bolt while it was only hand tight.
I would think the sleeve wouldn't pop off the bolt, maybe back down toward the bottom of the cone. If the sleeve popped all the way off the back of the cone you could just pull the bolt out of the hole with your fingers, no?
Who said in an earlier post that some of their wedge bolts were hand drilled? I was thinking, if the holes were drilled a little bit oversized due to drill wobble then I could see that there might be a problem with the sleeve popping of the back of the cone.
I thought we were only suppose to blow the holes clean for wedge bolts, have I missed something?. Next thing you know people will be saying, "Best to wash the hole out with detergent". I thought this brush the hole clean stuff was for glue-in bolts only? You guys aren't going from the ground up like that are you? If so, you got bigger gonads then me by far!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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twoshoes,
Does anyone read installation instructions these days?
The holes should be thoroughly cleaned of dust and debris for all wedge anchors and sleeve-type anchors. Also drop-in anchors and self-drill anchors (which shouldn't be used anyway, as already discussed). So, yes, for any mechanical anchor. Possibly, it might not be so critical for contraction bolts like the Powers (Rawl) "Drive" (aka: split shaft / buttonheads).
Yes, ground up for FA's. Rebolting usually on rappel.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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I thought I kind of knew what I was doing, Juan.
I guess I had become too dogmatic in what I thought I knew, I'm sorry. I going to stop throwing those instruction sheets away and actually read them.
I'll try to be more responsible, I promise. The last thing I want to do is hurt someone.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Juan,
You were the one who inspired me to improve my process of removing bolts. Your idea of the Bosch tile chisel was the greatest idea ever. I have, using those as a model, been machining those and now air tools into bolt removal tools. I thanked you in 2013 on another thread and I just want to thank you again here on this thread.
Maybe if someone tries to understand the instructions and do not have a construction background as we do, they just don't understand just what they are reading.
Seeing the words "Stone-Aggregate Concrete" may not register as concrete with rocks in it. The size of the rock dependant on what the concrete is being used for. Small rocks for things like sidewalks, big rocks for things like the footings for cooling towers and skyscrapers.
I have never seen the problems that tradesman has encountered, maybe seeking advice from an instructor at a trade school or a UBC training center would be in order.
Most teachers love teaching and would be happy to help him figure out the issues.
Roger Brown
Oceano, California
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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We are putting together a list of routes in the valley with 5/16" buttonheads. I will be checking routes put up between 1988-1991 to start, and it will probably take years:-)
If you did not use them on your routes then I won't have to put those on the list.
Any information would help. Clint is sending me his list and if we can start crossing off routes it would really help.
If you used an oversized bit or reamed out the holes, please PM me and I will check those first. I found a few of those last season, and will be checking their other routes.
Those that know me, know that I don't rat anyone off about that stuff. It will be for my ears only.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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You guys aren't going from the ground up like that are you? If so, you got bigger gonads then me by far!
Yep, every placement where I can without falling.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Juan,
May I ask what is your background, and what do you do, please?
I really thought I was doing things at least better than the average bloke out there.
You know, about twenty years ago I had the good fortune to get to spend the night at a rather well-to-do guy's house who's occupation was giving seminars on the applied science of concrete slab technologies (something along this order). I was sitting in this nice hot tub in the foothills of Mariposa and I asked him what he knew about concrete anchors. Well, this guy, Jim, even gave seminars on all kinds of concrete anchors. I can no longer remember exactly what he had degrees in, or how he had gained his expertise, but this guy very obviously new his stuff it become very evident to me fast.
You know, this was over 20 years ago, and things may have changed a little, but what I remember was he was not telling me to brush my holes out, but just blow them out sufficiently for mechanical anchors. But when he got to glue-in anchors, he got on a down right rant over this subject! Seems even the guys that he instructed on glue-in anchors couldn't even do it right after they had passed their test, gone on back to the job sites, and practiced in the field, they were having tilt-up slabs of concrete come apart at the glue-in anchors, dropping the whole slabs! What he was describing to me in the prep techniques, as far as my now fuzzy memory provides, was a process that you were describing for the way you do mechanical anchors, but with the addition of washing the hole out with detergent and water and then waiting for days until the hole could pass a test with the moisture meter. Apparently hardly anyone had enough patience, once in the field, to do all of these processes correctly, instead they would cut corners and have major failures. This just obviously drove this guy bananas!
Anyway, I'm just saying, I'm for doing a better job if I know for sure I'm suppose to. And, Juan, I'm sorry if I was a tease about brushing with my Sonacare,- that parts really true!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Roger,
De nada. Glad to hear that my experimentation and improvisation with tools has been a benefit to others. Keep up the good work. Your role modeling and education to others is every bit as important as the grunt work of rebolting.
twoshoes,
My background is not in construction. I sit on my butt Monday thru Thursday and talk to people - a psychotherapist. Clients of all ages, with a primary focus on kids in foster care.
Have developed climbing in northern Baja for 40 years. Hundreds of routes, mostly bolted friction climbing, bolted ground up. Hand drilled until the late 80s, then Bosch Bulldog. Lots of effort in recent years toward rebolting those old buttonheads.
Self-taught for the most part. Always trying to improve techniques and keep up with innovations and specifications of mechanical anchors. Have mentored Mexican climbers and provided bolting seminars to encourage responsible bolting in Baja.
I tend to be fairly mechanical and have always enjoyed designing, inventing, improvising. Even as a teenager, I helped design a winter mountaineering tent, made the first lightweight aluminum-frame snowshoes, and sewed mountaineering clothing and gear.
Sorry if I sounded harsh about reading the installation instructions. It's not solely directed at you. It seems that climbers would probably rather be in action, out climbing, and not poring over the details of mechanical anchor specs. There is a wealth of info here on ST about bolting and rebolting. It is commendable that you are paying attention to the details.
Back to bolting: I've noticed that some manufacturers are writing that the hole should be blown clean, with no mention of brushing. Illustrations show a compressed air nozzle. Keep in mind that compressed air in the construction industry is around 100 psi. Your blow tube or blow bulb is probably less than 3 psi, thus the need for additional brushing.
These expansion anchors get their holding power from friction. Any dust or debris in the hole acts as a lubricant which decreases the friction, and consequently harms the holding power of the anchor. Think of stepping on sand lying on top of concrete or granite. It creates a slippery surface. That's my thinking about why a hole should be cleaned thoroughly...
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Hey guys, I just modified my Sonacare toothbrush with a nylon 3/8" hole brush, cemented on with a little bit of epoxy. I can get those holes brushed out really good and in a real jiffy now!
I don't want no flack from the hole drilling police!"
I can't wait for an opportunity to use this new super-modified hole brush!
My holes are going to be squeaky tight!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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OK, here's an idea you'll really like!
I got a bottle 10oz of compressed gas from office depot. It says "cleaning duster". It's for blowing out your computers and electronics, and what-nots.
It comes with a little tube you can plug into the spray can.
Ok, you following me?
I'm going to have the cleanest hole in the world!
I just noticed it says "flammable"!
If you decide to follow my lead, just remember, don't blow yourself up!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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A tip from my dentist who drills daily: Use a fluoridated toothpaste or mouth rinse with that Sonicare. It helps with remineralization of the rock.
"New research indicates that topical fluoride - from toothpastes, mouth rinses, and fluoride treatments -- are as important in fighting rock decay as in strengthening developing rock."
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Every time I clip some old-ass buttonhead with a Leeper or SMC hanger I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette. On a another note, isn't there a big difference between bolt replacement and retro-bolting?
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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bvb,
Hola Bob, como estas amigo?
Are you just trying to stir a hornet's nest again?
On the slim chance it's a legit question:
Re-bolting = bolt replacement (upgrading the hardware)
Retro-bolting = adding additional protection bolts to an existing route
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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bvb,
Bolt replacement is just that, replacing with modern hardware.
Retro-bolting is like taking an old route and adding bolts to it, for whatever reason. Maybe because the route was dangerous and there was ground fall potential. Maybe because the original first ascentist now wants to make a real safe sport route. Etc.
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MattF
Trad climber
Bend, Or
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RIP Scott.
Just want to say this accident/forum thread inspired me to go out and rebolt a local ultraclassic here at Smith, Child Abuse (12b), the oldest sport climb in the lower gorge.
I got new bolts from the ASCA, borrowed a drill from my buddy Kent at Metolius, and pulled all the 30-year-old 5/16" expansion bolts with those thin SMC hangars (they had 4 pieces - maybe these were before the current 5-piece design of expansion bolts?). Turns out they just had superficial rust on them and were still probably bomber, but you never know until you pull them all...
Put in new plated powers bolts, I think 3 5/8" x 1/2". Nice and fat and shiny. Should be good to go for a long time. Nice new fat chains on the anchor.
Thanks to the ASCA for the bolts and to the guys at Metolius for the gear/support.
Donating to the ASCA is awesome, but that said bolting/rebolting is not very hard. If you have ever done any construction/work with power tools its quite easy. If you have time/inclination, I strongly encourage you to find someone who has bolted and get them to teach you. With ASCA providing bolts for free, its just your time/energy and its a great way to give back to the climbing community. Go do it!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Matt,
The bolts you pulled are 3/8" diameter Rawl Powerbolts, the non-stainless version.
They do have a 5/16" diameter hex bolt in the middle.
They are the same design that people call 5-piece.
P.S. Those are not the "thin" variety of SMC hangers.
Those are the thicker stainless steel SMC hangers (they are very strong).
The thin SMC hangers are chrome-moly and tend to turn gold/rust color.
Also, the SMC logo is vertical on the chrome-moly and horizontal on the stainless.
(Stainless on the left, chrome-moly center and right. photo by Steve Grossman)
I agree, superficial rust, and I agree you often can't tell how good / what the bolt is until you pull it.
The 1/2" plated bolt you put in will also develop superficial rust.
Why didn't ASCA supply the stainless version?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
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Thanks Matt! But please use the 1/2 x 2.75" bolts - which are stainless - for the lower gorge at Smith (basalt). Kent should have plenty of those, I recently sent him another large box for the lower gorge. Those 1/2" x 3.75" plated are only for the very porous soft tuff of the main areas. Your new bolts should still be fine for several decades in the lower gorge, and much stronger than those old bolts.
We do still supply a few plated 1/2" x 3.75" bolts to porous rock dry desert areas, where rust is minimal because water evaporates through the rock. The reason is that that length bolt is not made in stainless. The next length in stainless is 4.75", which requires an extra-long drill bit for the last 3/4" or so of the hole, and that length bolt tends to develop spinners in soft sandstone.
Glue-ins are preferred in any area with rock soft enough to need long 1/2" bolts, but for obvious reasons they are impractical in many applications such as desert towers where you immediately rap from the new bolts. Also many rebolters are not familiar with them, although the trend is definitely towards glue-in use in many areas.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks for explaining, Greg.
I agree in the drier areas like Smith, there are many good options.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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Also the 1/2 x 4.75" are super expensive, so we don't buy too many of them, there have been several times where they were on my planned order but got scratched off due to the high price.
We haven't purchased the plated 3.75" in a long time, we are still working off of some we bought years back. I'm not even sure if we have any left or not, I probably send some of those out only once every 2 or 3 years.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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For those who don't know just how sketchy those old generation SMC hangers are, look at Clint's post of a Steve Grossman photo (previous page) of the three SMC hangers. The center hanger has the all too common stress crack at the bolt hole. Often, the crack extends from the hole to the outer edge. I've even seen multiple cracks on a single hanger.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
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Yes, definitely listen to Juan. I've seen a lot more cracked & broken thin SMC hangers than Leepers! Unfortunately it can be hard to tell at a glance if the SMC hanger is the thin or the stainless, at least in areas that are really dry (in wet areas the thin SMCs are rusty).
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Greg, if you have just a very small button magnet you should be able to tell rather easy if the SMC hanger is the carbon steel, or the Stainless Steel. SMC SS must have been worked cold because they are just very slightly magnetic, while the carbon steel should have a strong pull with the magnet.
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brian benedon
Trad climber
tucson
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This broken pin showed the different shades of rust as described when I found it. I am lucky that it broke off when I made the clip, at-least I knew the circumstances.
Nothing wrong with this 1/4" Button head, it was roughly 30+ years old when we replaced it.
Most of the 1/4" bolts have pulled out with some effort. I have yet to replace any 5/16 bolts, I figured they were good enough for now. We have many in S. AZ
I'm very sad to hear of this tragedy, I hope this is a wake up call to get these old bolts replaced.
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Screwmar
Trad climber
Compton (seriously)
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i think Roger Brown has a good point. a few years back after tying into a two bolt button-head anchor on calaveras dome one of the bolts just slid right out. This came as a surprise since leaning back pulled it out. This was a 3/8 hammer in split shaft. It was a cheap electroplated kind. The shaft had a similar flat fracture across the cross section of the bolt about mid depth and was also partly rusty on the fractured face. I have a hunch that a common issue with button heads is that when the hole is drilled a hair too short, the final hammering either causes a partial fracture or weakening when the bolt bottoms out. maybe frost freeze and corrosion does the rest and it just sits there waiting until it gets really loaded. we replaced the bolt the following week along with others. I really appreciate the efforts of Greg, and others who donate their time to replacing so many bolts over the years. It is hard work and very time consuming. It is such a roulette when you are pulling out bolts. some come out so easy, and others hang on to the bitter end.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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^^Did you add bolts?
Edit: nice edit to the MP thread - you must have.
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MattF
Trad climber
Bend, Or
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Apr 12, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Greg and Clint - thanks for the info. Very informative. As a relativley new bolter/rebolter there's lots of good info to learn.
Greg - Yeah, Kent gave me 3.75" bolts for Child Abuse. That one in the pic is actually a 4.75", but I didn't place any like that on Child Abuse. He said those were for the tuff, and in particular for the lowest density sections of tuff, which makes sense. I got the bolts from him maybe a month back so maybe he hadn't gotten more of the 2.75" ones yet? Child Abuse is one of the two or three most whipped-on climbs in the lower gorge, so maybe its good that it has the 3.75" bolts in it... :-)
Clint - As for 5 piece, maybe I'm counting the number of pieces wrong. I was kinda assuming it was bolt, metal spacer, plastic spacter, expansion sheath, and cone. The old bolts don't have the metal spacer, so thats why I was thinking 4 piece, but maybe I'm counting the wrong things? Maybe its bolt, sheath, cone, hangar, and washer, or something like that?
We pulled the bolts on the anchor on the quite popular Quasar (10a) which is just a couple climbs over, and had similar SMC hangars to the Child Abuse ones, though I don't have them in front of me so I can't say if they were the same hangars or if there was a difference like SS vs cro-moly. I assumed all SMC hangars from that era were "thin" because they are thinner than modern hangars. Didn't realize there was actually a difference.
Anyway, the Quasar hangars had cut half-way through the bolts (although they were not 5-piece Rawls - they were the ones that are threaded out past the hangar with a nut, I think 5/16"). Maybe those hangars were the "thin" ones and the Child Abuse hangars were the "thick" SS ones. Or if the hangars were the same it could be a difference in bolts and there was galvanic corrosion on the Quasar anchors while there wasn't on the Child Abuse bolts? Or some other reason why the bolt/hangar combo was so much worse on Quasar than on Child Abuse.
The full motivation to replace the Child Abuse bolts was 1) 30 years old and some visible rust on hangars/bolt heads. 2) old SMC hangars that were similar if not the same to hangars that were very dangerous a couple climbs over. 3) All except 2 were spinners. 4) I got permission from the FAists to move the bolts and make it safe/reasonable to hang draws on lead. The bolts were pretty much all too high to clip from decent stances, so everyone hangs draws on lower after doing the climb next to it. The second bolt in particular was dangerously high unless you had a double-draw pre-hung on it. Now all the bolts are in really nice spots and the climb leads much better. So even though the old bolts probably had a few more years in them, its still a vast improvement to one of the ultraclassic and most climbed on routes in the gorge. Yay!
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Apr 12, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
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Two Shoes:
I cringe when reading of your claw hammer tuning fork technique
of striking one hammer face with another,
but apparently you have escaped injury from this so far.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:00am PT
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Matt,
As for 5 piece, maybe I'm counting the number of pieces wrong. I was kinda assuming it was bolt, metal spacer, plastic spacter, expansion sheath, and cone. Right, I never liked the term "5 piece", because the number of pieces varies (the metal spacer is only for the longer bolts).
Also I think the plastic spacer is missing in the shortest version.
Other pieces are the washer, and the plastic plug in the cone.
I wouldn't count the hanger.
The manufacturer's name for them is (Rawl or Powers) Power-Bolt.
There are more pieces than a wedge bolt (which has bolt, ring, nut and washer).
And the pieces tend to fall apart if they are hanging on a biner instead of in a bag!
I know what you mean about the SMC stainless hanger being thinner than the 4mm Fixe hanger. However I think the Petzl Coeur or original Metolius SS hangers are similar thickness to the SMC stainless.
We generally try to replace bolts in the original holes.
So for the Powerbolt, this means extra techniques for separating the
cone and sheath, and pulling them out.
Since you were moving the locations a bit with advice from the FA party,
that sounds good.
The permission is key, though. Otherwise there is a risk of turning it into a "revision" project instead of "replacement". That's outside the ASCA mission - more into the "Sloan zone"....
"Spinner" - I was discussing this with Bruce on Thursday.
A spinning hanger is a pain when you are trying to clip it at the limit of your reach!
But a spinner is not generally weak. In fact it puts less stress on the hanger, so in the case of the very thin version of the Leeper, it prevents cracking due to stress.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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What does the blue plastic spacer really do?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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The Power-Bolt is also designed to draw the fixture into full bearing against the base material
through the action of its flexible compression ring. As the anchor is being tightened, the
compression ring will crush if necessary to tightly secure the fixture against the face of the
base material. http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/06914.pdf
So apparently the blue ring helps correct the problem if the bolt is not driven far enough into the hole.
Of course the application Powers has in mind is fastening machinery to a concrete floor.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Apr 13, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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The Powers Power-Bolt, AKA 5-piece, has a differing number of pieces depending on the style and length. Here are some examples in the SS version.
-2.25" 'shorty' has a 1) bolt 2) gray plastic washer 3) SS washer 4) sleeve 5) cone 6) blue plastic cap on cone
-2.25" 'regular' has a 1) bolt 2) gray plastic washer 3) SS washer 4) blue plastic collar 5) sleeve 6) cone 7) blue plastic cap on cone
-3.5" 'regular' has a 1) bolt 2) gray plastic washer 3) SS washer 4) sleeve 5) blue plastic collar 6) sleeve (which is the same sleeve piece as the 2.25") 7) cone 8) blue plastic cap on cone
BTW - the small gray washer between the bolt head and the SS washer is to indicate when the bolt is properly torqued. When the plastic starts 'squishing out' between the bolt head and the washer you have applied the proper torque to the bolt.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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Hi Jay Wood,
Wearing eye protection is always a good idea. I'm good about keeping the tool dressed well and keeping all of the metal burrs ground down. I make a small strike area on the edge of the strike area for the leverage blows that are delivered straight down on the tool. I've always thought that this tool would crack from all of the abuse at some point but it just keeps on ticking. I guess Stanley makes a respectable tool.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Apr 13, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
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Yeah, flying chips from hardened face striking hardened face.
Hammers these days are softer & more beveled, so maybe it's less of an issue, but I've seen hammer faces with nasty looking pieces missing.
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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Apr 18, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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Please forgive me if this has already been suggested as a stubborn bolt removal tool.
This is found over on Geir Hundal's Southern Arizona website:
http://www.geir.com/hurley.html
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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May 27, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
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Did a warm up climb and found some 5/16 button heads with thin (?) SMC spinning hangers on Paper Tiger (5.6 PG13), Queens Throne, Shuteye Ridge. Topo says FA was 1989, along with most of the routes there. PG13 felt like full R to us - too early in the season for long runout slab - phew.
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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May 28, 2015 - 04:01pm PT
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Ok - thanks Clint!
After the ORG accident, I'm feeling pretty sketch about taking a fall/slider on a 5/16 buttonhead.
Ed
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 28, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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Onyourleft-
That design has the right idea, but I think it would break the majority of hangers or bolt heads
I wonder what the success rate was/is? I would be surprised if it had ever pulled a 5/16ths buttonhead.
It sort of goes against the mechanics of a hanger/compression bolt combo.
Very interesting idea none the less.
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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Found this bolt yesterday at Phantom Spires. Is it 5/16" buttonhead?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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^^^^^^^^
Looks like a 5/16" buttonhead with a SMC SS hanger. It looks like they had a hard time driving in the buttonhead based on the nicks on the side of the hanger.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Yep that's 5/16". Just got this photo of another 5/16" buttonhead. This is the first bolt on Blue Velvet at Sugarloaf, apparently the upper bolts are all similar but all spinners (while this one is epoxied down, you can see an old chopped/broken bolt underneath):
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blr
climber
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Add "Only the Young Die Brave" at Sugarloaf to the list. Sugarloaf/PS/Wrights Lake has quite a few of them.
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sowr
Trad climber
CA
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It's possible they may crack as they are driven due to compressive stress, after which ambient temperature related expansion/contraction would add to the stress rise. Cracked areas would be unplated, and corrode more quickly (rock is porous). A perfectly driven bolt (one driven perpendicularly with equal compressive force on both sides) would crack equally on both sides.
I recommend a few things on climbs where these bolts are utilized:
1 - Prior to clipping test the bolt. Off the top of my head not sure how. Direct axial pull: if it comes right out well there's your answer. Gently tap it with something? Will the sound be different? Can flex be detected? Is it obviously excessively corroded? Needless to say easier said than done from a sketchy stance.
2 - Routes with this hardware installed should be rated "X" until re-equipped with suitable equipment.
3 - Guidebooks should present a warning up front, clearly stating the problem.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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So I went and checked out "Only the Young Die Brave" at Sugarloaf on Saturday. It had four 5/16" buttonhead lead bolts in addition to a newer 1st bolt shared with "The Man Who Fell to Earth". The bolts are from 1989 and look identical to the one from "Jugs Revisited" a few posts up. I tried to remove the 1st of the four to no avail and the best I could do was to bend the hanger enough with a crowbar to get a saw blade under it. Had to cut it, patch it and put in a new bolt next to it. So, my conclusion was that those bolts were REALLY bomber - no need to mess with them any time soon. No signs of corrosion except for a few tiny nicks on the head from the installation. I hung on the other bolts with my body weight as well and they seem to be in the same condition.
As a side question, is there a good way to remove 5/16" bolts? It took me way too long with this one and I broke a crowbar in the process. Is it mandatory to use tuning forks for this and where could I get one (or two?)?
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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All the bolts on the final direct finish variation of Cryin' Time are 5/16. I never replaced them or thought to because they seemed sufficient. One of them is a spinner now if I remebr correctlly
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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^^^^^^^^^^
Since I led the FA of that pitch in 1978 without placing any bolts I'd say take them out and leave them out.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Back in the mid-70s, I was climbing Uncle Ben's with Daryl (Hatten). I was cleaning the pitch when I heard him squawk that the belay was coming out.
Naturally I clipped into everything in sight and hung there terrified while he drilled away and repaired the station.
Not surprisingly, when he finally gave me the OK to come up I asked him what had happened after I reached the belay, noting that we were connected to several obviously manky bolts as well as the new one. His comment was that the bolt that popped was the most solid-looking one of the bunch.
The culprit was a 5/16 Rawl drive buttonhead.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Stewart,
Back in the mid-70s,... The culprit was a 5/16 Rawl drive buttonhead. How certain are you of that?
I never saw any Rawl "Drive" in sizes other than 1/4" and 3/8" in the 1970s. I don't think the 5/16" went into production until the 1980s. The 5/16" went out of production in the 1990s.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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All the bolts on the final direct finish variation of Cryin' Time are 5/16.
This refers to the Dan & Sue McDevitt direct finish on "Crying Time". The finish Bruce Hildebrand did is to the left. There's another direct finish still further left. I'd say the finish furthest to the left is the one that Bill Taylor did. In other words, there are 3 direct finishes to "Crying Time". The Dan & Sue one is equipped with 5/16th buttonheads.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Thanks for the link Juan! That's a pretty useful thread as well. Is anyone able to make some of these sort of tools to sell? Or perhaps can anyone in the bay area lend me a one of those big tuning fork/cutoff wrecker bars things/cold chisel with a slot? I'm currently healing up my finger, so no climbing, but I'm looking for replacement projects to make a good use of my time.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Juan: You could easily be right. It was a long time ago.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Feb 16, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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"96 degrees in the shade" at chapel wall as well as "Desperado" at Pat and Jacks have scary 5/16 buttonheads with spinning hangers. They seem to be ok shape, but have a bit of corrosion. I just replaced one protecting the crux on 96 degrees...
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