Failure of Locking Carabiner under Body Weight

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Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 11, 2015 - 11:21am PT
`

In the picture, the device attached to the ' gold/yellow 'biener,is a 'Robot'.
A device that I have used for decades.

The circumstances that resulted in the "damage Under Body ..."Do Not Matter to me,

I use my gear carefully, but I want to feel One Hundred Percent confidence in the gear I use.

Especially when it is single locking 'bieners, that is to say no more single Gates,

between me 'n raven food & reincarnation.(when thats practical) still have to leading ect.


In the constant fight against complacency, I add redundancy when ever or where ever I can.




It turns out that I have six, one non anodized 1st gen that the screw sleeve, has been repurposed, and five gold, so to me I only retired one the others I will use in pairs only.
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 11, 2015 - 11:24am PT
Several notes:
Another noticed the slight differences in the test rating stamp; it even looks a bit less professional than the example - just coincidental?
Also, those gate load test ratings appear to be with gate closed, making the low numbers even more alarming.
Do keep in mind tho' the major test loads we are familiar with relate to the breaking of the main 'biner; this technically did not fail, as only the gate portion was trashed. This of course would not be good if the belay/rappel system, or your harness, were the portions attached to that gate.
Modern 'biners have become more specialized, uber light, yet stronger in primary axes than good old SMC ovals of the 70s. Still, in 'biner braking systems I just can't trust the radically asymetrical and wire-gated thingies, mostly because they don't ever make maximal, planar contact with one another, especially when properly opposing the gates.
Even the gate lock itself creates problems when used in biner-only brake systems. The ever-expanding variety of locking mechanisms need to be carefully assessed for your particular use, as ropes under tension can do strange things like compress a button, rotate a collar, etc.
Last, always send failed equipment to the manufacturer if possible, as they are anxious to avert future accidents, whether from heat treatment batch problems, design flaws, or other causes. Speculation without analysis adds little to the resolution - for instance, since the gate latch was trashed, and the hinge area intact except for the odd pin loss, clearly the gate could not have been loaded when open, or else the latch portion would be entirely uninvolved. Think before you toss a random notion into the mixer.
couchmaster

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 11:32am PT


It's all just speculation until the breakee shows up and says what device he was using, how it was configured, and where he bought the carabiner.

I found it of interest that http://thecounterfeitreport.com/product/210/Attache-M35-SL.html doesn't list the differences. They are that similar. Most counterfeits have lists on the counterfeit report of the many ways you can spot the fakes ones. Not these.



Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 11, 2015 - 11:56am PT
1strange devices often need short extension to help keep orientation /avoid cross loading ,ect.1a russian titanium 'bienr
YYZ

climber
Alabama
Mar 11, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
Probably worse than a canyoneer... I'm a caver and frequent lurker on the taco. This thread caught my eye.

As has been stated, the tensile strength ratings for biners are across the x and y axis; with most mfg ratings including open/close gate. Cross loading, however, can result in forces great enough to break the gate screwlock mechanism and presumably the hinge-end (as in the OP pic).

This youtube by Brian Stoltz demonstates how easily a gate can be broken under much less kn force than mfg's ratings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fz0c1rC_88

Now I assume you all possess a 14" rack as your rapping device of choice. ;)
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 11, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
Interesting.

The hole where the peened pin was does look elongated. Side load coulda busted the bottom off the gate?

Pirana...I've seen them slide down and get cockeyed (rescued a gal who'd done that over a 240 foot free air drop...exciting!).

I'd have to play with it, but, I wonder if the Pirana slid down, and, the action of the rope through the Pirana opened the gate...

Was the harness an old bod without a belay loop? Or, did the harness have a belay loop? Did he use a tether to extend his rappel point?

Was the Pirana attached to the rope still? Attached to the biner too?

I don't see much if any wear on the small end of the Attache. Which makes sense. The wear ought to all be on the big end especially with a Pirana.

Commonly used rappel device, maybe thee most popular especially in Europe. You can't afford to get stuck on a rope in moving water especially, hence no cord backups, etc. Important to be able to quickly get off rappel (folks have drowned). Specific tool for specific circumstances, for sure.

Scary. I've had pretty good luck with those biners and they're almost mandatory for use with a Pirana (or something very similar that will fit the snug through hole). Only issue I've seen is one that was locked shut that I had to beat on with a rock to get to unscrew.

Keep us posted, Paul. Thanks!
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
Hmmm...this configuration could unscrew the gate...

jstan

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:20pm PT
YYZ's video shows cross loading after a twist. It is worth noting that video would have resulted in complete separation of the climber from the rope had the hinge end of the gate also broken. As was experienced in the OP.

My practice was to use a six/eight opposed biner chain clipped into my swami. I never used any of today's extra complicated devices.
WBraun

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
Flip the whole rig the other way if you're right handed.

Also the way you have it threaded with minimum friction for a single line rappel.

There's many many multiple ways to fuk up a rappel.

There's many many different ways to rig a rappel.

There needs to be absolute focus at all times from the rigging of the rappel to the end of the rappel to wherever one is headed.

Failure to maintain focused peripheral vision with being fully conscious of ones surrounding environment at all times during a rappel could lead to failure or even death.

It's not about knots in the end of a rope , but the entire whole rappelling business itself.

I've never used knots in the end of my rappel ropes to begin with because it can lead to further unseen problems.

But if someone likes knots at the end of their ropes then whatever, do whatever you want as far as that goes.

Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Makes me think whatever harness he was using had a belay loop, and, the biner got crossloaded onto the gate. When it busted, they parted ways.

Really, if the Pirana/Attache was in a "normal" position, and loaded, even with the gate open (or missing), you wouldn't become disconnected from it.

Interesting to note the type of harness and belay loop orientation on the Petzl site (and the type in common use amongst some canyon folk). The belay loop on a "canyon" specific harness would orient the Attache so the gate would face straight up and not flat to the right or left. On a standard climbing harness, the belay loop is in the opposite plane which puts the Attache on its side with the gate either facing to the right or left. Should your brake hand bring rappel side of the rope over the side of the biner and against the gate...voila...

With a coat over his situation, makes me wonder if he fed the rope into the biner, and, locked it open (screwed the locking sleeve up with the gate on the inside of the nose). Unless you checked to make sure it was locked and didn't see that error, you'd never know even when you loaded up the rappel.

Looking at the photo of the broken bits, if he didn't mess with the gate, the locking sleeve is in a low enough position to be open.

I've notice minor axis loading on especially locking carabiners on my belay loop with a large locking sleeve. The newer Attache has a much smaller sleeve profile...
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
"Flip the whole rig the other way if you're right handed."

Could do. That'd be safer with a belay loop on a standard climbing harness.

"Also the way you have it threaded with minimum friction for a single line rappel."

Yep. That's the way the cool canyon kids do it. Single line.

The Pirana is a neat rap device. Adjustable friction. Easy to lock off. Stays put on a biner. You can go off rappel whilst treading deep water and not drop it. Tends to favor folks who prefer rappelling with a dominant hand, as the friction pins and hooks on it are set up for one hand or the other.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 11:01pm PT
Failure to maintain focused peripheral vision with being fully conscious of ones surrounding environment at all times during a rappel could lead to failure or even death.

It's not about knots in the end of a rope , but the entire whole rappelling business itself.
Absolutely true.
randy88fj62

Trad climber
LA, CA
Mar 20, 2015 - 10:51am PT
The Petzl Attache is one carabiner that has been faked and Chinese copies made.

Can the owner of the carabiner vouch that it was purchased new from a reputable source? "If" this was a forgery then it's possible it could fail like that.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2433856/Counterfeit-Pet
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 20, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
Simple explanations often being most likely, looking at the pictures I would suspect that the carabiner rotated in such a manner as for the harness to be attached on the gate. If the rap device was attached at the larger end of the biner, and the gate managed to be forced open (inward), from either the gate being left unlocked or working its way unlocked during the rap, would it not then cause extreme leverage on the pin, causing the gate breakage shown in the OP, pin shear, and subsequent disconnect from the harness while still being attached to the rope?
Easy to play that scenario in your head, given the info provided. The hole in the hinge point of the biner appears elongated in the direction of an open gate, the gate itself is broken in a manner indicating sideways leverage while open, and lack of a pin would seem to be a result of forces experienced upon breakage of the gate. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. I doubt you could break a gate off with your hands, but under body weight while open suspect it would bend or pop right off without much effort.
At the bottom of a rap, while stopping and stepping down, changing the angle and the force applied...
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 20, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
For your viewing pleasure... breaking a biner gate:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Nothing but one good stomp with one foot. Nowhere near body weight. Attached via 550 paracord. Yes, it's an older carabiner. Yes, someone filed the locking portion of the nose off. That's why I chose it.... didn't want to sacrifice one of my good biners to the cause. Prior to this test, I saw nothing wrong with the biner, other than the removal of the nose lock, rendering it unfit for climbing usage. If you look at the following pictures, you may notice that the gate failed completely at the hinge, but the biner body at the hinge did not. It did crack, and it did elongate the pin hole. Additionally, both ears of the gate failed and the pin remained in place. I would encourage anyone with a similar crab to the OP to try the same experiment and post up results.
This has been a nonscientific test. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 20, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
Way back on page 1
The only way I can see that happening is if the gate itself was loaded while it was open.
Or not fully screwed down.

What Reilly said:
One takeaway for me is where he mentions his jacket covering up his setup.
No matter how much clothing I wear I ALWAYS make sure I can see my setup -
all the time. Besides, if your clothing is covering your setup then it is
only a matter of time before it gets caught.
If I can't see all of my belay or rappel rig I STOP (even mid rapp) and clear it. And double check that the gates are locked.

And Werner:
I've never used knots in the end of my rappel ropes to begin with because it can lead to further unseen problems.
Indeed. I make the knot/no knot decision depending on the circumstances of each rappel AND with the specific assent of my partner. We both need to know how it's been set up. If I don't want a knot and he does, we do the knot.
But knotting the ends is a topic for another day. A lot of different safety considerations there.

I've never used a Piranha so I'm reaching a bit here.
It looks to me in Clint's pic of a rigged Pirahna that in some orientations the brake hand end of the rope can move across the 'biner screw. In the orientation shown, that would tend to tighten the screw. However, if the Pirahna is turned over right to left, the rope will be sliding across the screw in the direction to loosen it.
Note that the screw/unscrew direction reverses between belaying and rappelling.

A second point: the width of the Piranha's upper loop and the curved tang on the right in the pic provides a large leverage if the Piranha is rotated against the biner gate.
I'll let someone who has the dimensions of the Piranha and Attache work out the moments. My gut feeling is 1KN of cross force could easily be applied to the biner gate. Especially if shock loaded (think bouncing rappel)

And point 3: see the ATC in FlipFlop's photo of his redundant rig. I've always preferred a belay device with a "soft" attachment like the ATC. An idea I believe first introduced in the Lowe Tubular (which I still have somewhere in my antiques bin). It would be nearly impossible for this design to cross load the locking 'biner with significant force.
jonnyrig

climber
Mar 24, 2015 - 08:55am PT
Nothing? Nobody wants to try a piece of paracord on the gate of a biner like the OP similar to my nonscientific video?
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