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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Feb 20, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
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the typical canyoneering belay device is a Petzl Pirana. the attachment end has a rubber stopper in it to prevent loss of the device and to hold it very firmly in place while in use. If the gate is caught there it could easily ratchet backwards and snap the gate. Thanks for the posts, especially rgold, we can count on you guys.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Feb 20, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
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hmm. I really like the attache and use a lot of them. bummer. I wouldn't know how to assess the pin on the ones I have except for being inordinately loose.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 20, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
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Well at least we know what broke the 'biner:
... a very loud low-base boom broke the carabiner.
I wonder if dogs could hear the boom?
But seriously, that is concerning. It looks like the 'biner has had some use, so it's hard to say what was the initial cause of the failure.
In the world of climbing we often depend on redundancy. But then there are the actions, like rappelling, where we depend on single pieces of equipment.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Feb 20, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
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In the world of climbing we often depend on redundancy. But then there are the actions, like rappelling, where we depend on single pieces of equipment.
It's awfully easy to use two carabiners while rappelling.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
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The biner rwedgee posted has a different kN rating than the one that broke, did the ratings change or does anyone know if the fakes used the same specs?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
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might just be the angle, but the pin hole looks elongated.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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You had me at
"canyoneering forum"
say no more.
;-)
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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Ahem.
Here we go again.
K-man writes In the world of climbing we often depend on redundancy. But then there are the actions, like rappelling, where we depend on single pieces of equipment.
PSA
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Feb 20, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
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Wayyyyy scary.
This OP has been a public service announcement.
Thanks!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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I suppose the main thing to take from this is to check out any of the same Petzls to see if perhaps a bad run was made. If you have one check it. (how I'm not sure though?) bad pin? unusual play or action? We don't have metalurgical Xrays. Counterfeit or not will be hard to tell.
As always try to avoid operator error and gate loading.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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Fig eight or a gri can do that.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Feb 21, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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Think of rapping from a fifi hook....it's doable but I wouldn't really want to.
I agree with Wade, the pin hole does look elongated. The pin had to come out before it broke as the ends are larger than pin diameter. If it didn't the pin would still be in one of the intact holes of the gate or the biner.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2015 - 09:01am PT
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Thanks for the continuing feedback.
Flip Flop, I have poo pooed the extension and prussic back up shown in your photo, but I might be coming around. Will start experimenting with that method immediately.
There is one difference is this case from the events reported in Rgold's link. In those reports, the Figure 8 twisted onto the gate and opened the gate or broke it off. The Figure 8 came free of the carabiner and the carabiner stayed on the harness or fell off. In the present event, the harness likely broke the gate because the carabiner stayed attached to the Figure 8.
Oh, the harness was a BD Alpine/ice harness and the rappel device was a Petzl Piranha as Lucky Pink guessed. I have asked the fellow to take a photo of how he thinks the set up was at the time of the accident.
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dhayan
climber
los angeles, ca
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Feb 21, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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As far as the screw gate coming unlocked, that has happened to me while rappelling before. I was cleaning gear under a roof and had moved horizontally while on rappel. When I looked down my locking carabiner gate was stuck partially open - scared the crap out of me! Apparently the screw gate had briefly rubbed on the rock but it was enough to open it completely. This was with the newer lighter version of the petzl attache, where the screw gate part protrudes out a little bit more than most other locking carabiners.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 21, 2015 - 11:27am PT
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The hole for the pin is enlarged, and the failure mode on the gate is consistent with this.
My speculation is that the gate was locked OPEN, or opened while unlocked, then busted off somewhere in the rappel.
Until I see more data, I'm rolling with "user retardation". Since it was under a coat when it happened (WHY?), we'll probably never know more.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 21, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Petzl Piranha - a figure 8 type device.
Could exert considerable leverage on a biner.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 21, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
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I agree, the most likely scenario is the gate was either not locked or came unlocked, the gate opened and leveraged until it broke. The fact it was covered by a raincoat adds to that likelihood I would think.
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Mar 11, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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This is an important post..Yep this is operator error I bet. Screw lock was not completely closed. Raincoat obscuring vision coupled with a wiggling harness opened the gate completely creating the opportunity for the cross-load to blow up the biner. When a gate is loaded at an angle and completely open with rappel device resting on the gate, biner will fail at a relatively low load. This is the weakest point of any carabiner.
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