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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
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I agree Robert L, I find American guides, in general, to be more client friendly than their European counterparts. Of course, there are numerous exceptions.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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You cannot be taught to be a good guide. Guiding requires far more skills than can be learned in any number of courses. Experience is highly important, but the ability to think independently is a most essential skill.
A manual is useless during a storm with an injured client; the skills required to effect a rescue should be so well ingrained, that any manual creates limitations. As Andy Carson, former owner of Jackson Hole Mountain Guides, often said: "Rules are for fools". Every situation is different, and the best solution to every incident will not be found in your manual when you need it.
If you want to be a guide climb everything in sight. Only after years of climbing and thousands of pitches of experience will you be close to skillful enough to ensure the safety of others.
I can't count the times I have seen "certified guides" create unsafe situations, hog anchors, and generally put everyone nearby at risk.Most of the best guides I know are not certified, nor will they ever be.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Nov 22, 2017 - 08:17am PT
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Note the crossloaded biners clipped to chain link and bolt hangar. A shockload on either of the two biners poses a serious crossload risk which could easily be avoided by clipping beneath the chains and links. This is sloppy and should never be used as an example
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 08:54am PT
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While I have met some very good NOLS and AMGA people, in my opinion they cater to the trustafarian elite. The insecure trustafarian resents those of us who got our knowlege, experience, status and power on our own. They aim to use regulations to prevent us from having a piece of their pie to which they feel they are entitled. The cost of AMGA and NOLS courses makes this very clear to me. These self proclaimed regulators have gained a power monopoly through government regulation and permit processes that are the antithesis of what free climbing represents. Just watch what these agencies or their certified contractors do when they find out youve been pirate guiding on their turf! I will admit that I have been lucky that I have gotten a free pass from the major contractors where I pirate guide. They were generous enough to share the rock with me and I am grateful. But should a guide really have to ask permission? Is this a Monarchy?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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Yeah, I agree.... chainsaw
This AMGA horsesh!t is all about power, money and controlling people.
Guys like me don't need these st00pid caveman tools.
Just follow me and do as I do is the freelance motto :-)
Just grab the rock and start climbing.
"Hey, where's the rope?" the client asks.
"You don't need no stinkin rope, they just get in the way duuude."
You learn rope stuff after you learn how to grab sh!t and use your feet on the rock first.
"Huh??? WTF???"
LOL ... just see my client runaway.
"Hey, you come back here now! We ain't finished yet ......"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 23, 2017 - 09:23am PT
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It’s a brave new world
of regulations, agencies, and buhlsh!t.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Nov 23, 2017 - 11:47am PT
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As usual Werner tells it like it is: "This AMGA horsesh!t is all about power, money and controlling people." I agree that AMGA is mostly geared towards the trustafarian elite who play at guiding for a few years before assuming the helm of the family enterprise, but there are also a handful of badass, real deal, climbers who just happen to be certified despite their abilities.
I used to work for an un-named guide service at a popular area in S. California. One day, while co-teaching a large group, my boss, now an AMGA examiner, was teaching the "California Death Triangle", two ratty slings through two Leeper bolt hangars clipped at the bottom of the triangle with a single locking biner as a good anchor. The guy in question may be a skilled free climber and owner of a successful guide service, but is not qualified to teach basic classes and certainly not qualified to examine guides
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Nov 23, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
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Chainsaw I agree to a point. Like Scot said there are still some highly qualified guides out there. Problem with guiding in the U.S. is that even if you do get certified the concessionaires own the permits and make the profits and they have control over who guides there.
I did my share of private pirate guiding both here in the states and Europe, Canada, South America, and Nepal when I was young. If I was still a guide I would go with either Canada’s ACMG or IFMGA definitely have not been impressed with AMGA attitude.
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gruzzy
Social climber
socal
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Nov 24, 2017 - 12:55am PT
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Hands on experience and technical know how would seem to both be imporant in the making of a guide. I would want a certified guide with years of experience. The training im sure gives guides skills that they have never used ithe years of recreational climvini
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gruzzy
Social climber
socal
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Nov 24, 2017 - 12:58am PT
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IMHO if you dont bother with certification, youre doing it half assed
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 24, 2017 - 06:32am PT
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I don't know anything about how the AMGA's implementation of guiding education and standards works and doesn't work. Maybe reforms are in order; I have no idea. But the idea that a profession as demanding as guiding, with all the various disciplines having to be mastered and the extensive responsibility for the safety of clients involved, the idea that such an activity should be devoid of independent certification standards that would protect the consumer and guarantee a high minimal level of competence is, in my opinion, absurd.
I'd also add that guiding has special challenges not encountered by even experienced climbers, so the idea that an extensive climbing resume is sufficient qualification for guiding is seriously flawed.
Fully certified guides are getting the mountaineering equivalent of a PhD. At that level of education, 25k sounds to me like a bargain.
As for the OP's query about manuals, it is now several years old and out of date, as the AMGA seems to be publishing videos as well as books.
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