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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Karl, it is just wrong to say that the skills needed for this subject can be dealt with adequately in a 100 dollar book or a couple days instruction, or even both. Every book has errors, and a couple of days just isn't much time.
You can't even get a WFR cert without 9 days of 8 hour a day training, plus written exams and practicals, and I feel that this is another minimum requirement to take people out into the wild. Plus you have to recert every 3 years on the WFR. The 9 day thing had I think about 10 or 12 people and the cost was about 600 bucks, not inclucing meals or rooms. It's probably more now though.
Tooo bad the AMGA does not have some
I will agree the AMGA charges a lot of money for those courses. That could be because someone is trying to make a living teaching and certifying, and because there are not very many applicants.
It's to bad more people won't part with some cash to get training from certified qualified guides, cause then the prices might come down a little.
About schooled vs grandfathered in:
I've got grandfathered friends and schooled friends from the AMGA, they liked the courses, Um, NONE are a$$holes, they're good climbers, all great guys, but one stands above the others in regard to safety at all times.
On the other hand some of the best climbers I know have no affiliation with the AMGA whatsoever, and really have not had any formal training in rescue.
Shameless Plug:
Hie thee to your nearest qualified instructor for some self n leader reacue training. You may never need it, but you will learn things you can use every time you climb anyway, and if you ever do need the critical part of what you learn, you'll have a better shot at success.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:41pm PT
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I'm personally find it sad to see the U.S. go down this very Euro road, but after about the first 10 years of gyms the commercialization was unstoppable, the opportunity was there, and now gyms and guides are in a permanent symbiotic relationship that does unfortunately need to be regulated. As to how that's come about in the U.S., well, I think there was bound to be a bit of messiness there.
What I find as a bit disconcerting is a) the almost cult-like way it all unfolded and has been maintained which, given I don't get involved, I can live with, and b) the fact that now you run across kids on-line and off who say "the AMGA says this has to be done this way" or "that's not the AMGA way" as though the voice of god had handed down a set of tablets to the AMGA. Now that's not entirely their fault given climbers do not exactly learn to think for themselves in gyms and also it's due in part simply to the way our icon/media driven culture works today.
But as you yourself pointed, Ron, the best guides are not necessarily or always the best climbers, so it's understandable that they would need settle on some common technical cirriculum for consistency's sake. The problem is the setting of this stuff in stone and the elevation of AMGA guides as the "only" folks with any "real" expertise. Many of us have climbed at a high level and guided and trained several generations of climbers over decades without a fee, and it is disconcerting at times to witness this inadvertant establishment of the myth that the AMGA is the only font and resevoir of expertise and experience.
I'll grant you that is the real problem - [paying] noobs can't be expected to know the difference - and so some label is necessary to allow them to discern a minimum competency set. But that is what it is - a set of certifications that an individual possesses a base level of competencies and experience - not that they have been graced by the hand of god. No doubt it's all an indication that someone is doing a great job at and for the AMGA, but as an old guy it is still irritating as sh#t at times nonetheless...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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There is no law that says you need to be AMGA certified to guide, is there?
It has been my experience that most clients who are n00bs have never heard of the AMGA.
Perhaps it could help for liability reasons (i.e. getting sued due to injury), or getting hired on Exum or some other outfit.
But I have known plenty of guides who have done just fine for themselves with no certifications.
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LuckyPink
Mountain climber
north bay today/someplace else tomorrow
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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Hey, have you ever looked at the AMGA roster? Ever notice who is NOT on it?? So many top level professional US climbers are absent from this list. That says plenty. I've run across too many AMGA guides that need guiding.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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Lucy, you need to read a little better. Its not about the ability to climb very difficult routes.
Joe,
I don't think that the AMGA is the ONLY way, but who else offers the public a consistent standard AND has UIAGM parity?
Really folks, many people seem to be woefully unaware of the complexities that have been a part of this quagmire for decades.
I only wish that these issues could be addressed as easily as some believe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Ron,
I don't think there is anything simple about the explosion of climbing in raw numbers driven by gyms and the attending commercializations such as guiding. And as I said and agreed - that drove a real need for some sort of "stamp" on guiding. But I've talked to a number of old friends and partners who inquired with the AMGA who are in the outdoor business and are extremely competent / experienced, and several of whom are educators as well. They all related the exact same "who's cousin do you have to blow to get involved with this crew" experience. The cloistered / cult / need-to-know-someone aspect of it, the way they were treated, and the steep fees all sat very badly with the folks I know who otherwise would have added a lot to any such organization.
But, my take on it is there is no easy or clean way to put any such rubric around the herd of distempered cats that are climbers in this country...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2006 - 03:47pm PT
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Don't know why I even got involved.
I'm not blowing any more distempered cats anyway.
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LuckyPink
Mountain climber
north bay today/someplace else tomorrow
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Sep 22, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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of course it's about supposedly certifying guides, but to be an effective organization in US rock and mountaineering AMGA has to be embraced by or contribute to the culture of successful climbers and mountaineers. So far AMGA gives off a commercialized air of self serving importance as expressed by some of the posters here. A better approach would be to provide a service to the community that our professional and successful elite climbers of today can support.
AMGA should decide if it wants to be a certification board (with some kind of public input) or a guide training commercial enterprise.
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TimM
Trad climber
somewhere on the Sierra Eastside
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Sep 22, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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WBraun, what exactly was "Kim Schmitz's scenario" ??
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Derek
climber
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Sep 22, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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As an aside, has anyone actually called the AMGA and asked if the manual is for sale? I'd be surprised if it isn't at any price. But if not, I have 2 copies...Name your price! You might also call the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides. The manuals are identical, and Canadians are nicer than we are. They might sell them. But even if you get your hands on a copy, the idea that it's some magic tome containing all you need to know to guide well is ludicrous.
On a personal note, I guided for many years before I drank the AMGA coolaid and participated in the courses. I have to say that while I didn't learn anything earth shattering, I did learn quite a bit, and am certainly a better guide for my AMGA experiences. I also experienced absolutely none of the insular clique mentality folks have complained of here.
The point about the AMGA making up it's mind about whether they want to be an independent certifying body or a commercial training organization is the most interesting part of this thread. There have been some recent changes that suggest this question is being considered at least in some form at the board level. I'm thinking primarily of the fact that qualified guide services are now allowed to run AMGA-santioned TRSM and Rock Instructor courses independent of the AMGA (after paying a licensing fee for use of the curriculum). It will be interesting to watch the organization grow. Remember, it's a young one at present.
-Derek
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marky
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2006 - 04:50pm PT
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Derek, I will pay $7 for your AMGA manual.
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tburn
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
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The AMGA has some very serious problems to say the least.
I has become nothing more than an occupation for no experienced climbers who are kids of rich people wanting something to do outside of collecting their trust fund payments.
The guides they certify these days clearly have little to no Mountain Sense because nearly 10 of them have died in the last ten years, many while guiding people including leaving clients abandoned and even killing them in Basic Courses.
No wonder they don't want to publish anything, I would either!
Do the research folks! After last summers accident on the Grand Teton with Falk you need not look too much farther.
You are your best guide and do not rely on the Government of ever Help You along with the AMGA.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Nov 20, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
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I have to put in a plug here for "The Mountain Guide Manual: The Comprehensive Reference--From Belaying to Rope Systems and Self-Rescue", by Marc Chauvin & Rob Coppolillo. From what I hear its becoming the de facto training manual for the AMGA.
I've been reading it now and then over the last couple weeks and its excellent. I'm not about to try write a review, but will say that its helping me a lot in rethinking the way I do things. Its the best book for climbing systems I've seen in a long time.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 20, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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Only 5.10c?
I think the ACMG requires Assistant Rock Guides course attendees to on sight 11b sport and 10d trad (with a pack for the trad)
The examiners have fun when they get a few pitches up the Grand Wall (If course is at Squamish) wait until one of the aspirants has led out greater than half a rope length, then say "Can you get a piece of bomber gear?"
The aspirant guide puts it in, examiner says "You have just fallen and are unconscious, hang off the rope"
Examiner says to other aspirant "Unweight the belay, tie off, and do the rescue"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2017 - 11:13pm PT
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I am surprised by some of the posting. I can't quite fathom why any testing organization would not publish exactly what they would be testing upon.
You don't have to limit to climbing, there are many other activities that have comparable challenges. I'm a sailing instructor, for example. The ASA published everything that you need to know to pass a certification, either for sailing certification, or for instructor certification. I've been involved in examining many prospective instructors, and have been continually amazed at what skills they show up WITHOUT.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:10am PT
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Nov 21, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
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I gave that guy marky a ride to the eastside several years ago.
The experience made me rethink my entire willingness to give strangers off the internet a ride... I don't think I've done it since.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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I met a couple of aspirant guides from Chamonix while in Indian Creek in 2010. Those guys were badass. They were way better climbers then most of the AMGA certified guides I have met and then they were just apirants. Sounded like they had a pretty rigorous program as well as a culture of professionalism more so then say, American trust fund guides. One of them, Fred Degoulet just completed a new route on Nupste.
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web17f/newswire-new-route-on-nuptse-south-face
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brian n
Sport climber
Manchester, WA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
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The manuals they publish can be found for sale on Ebay, occasionally.
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