why doesn't AMGA website put out manuals?

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marky

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 21, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
manuals on helpful stuff, like tying knots or rigging anchors? that would be more enlightening and of greater social value than its "flowchart" for ascending the guide totem pole, or info on how to pay dues.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Sep 21, 2006 - 06:53pm PT
they have a manual, it's expensive, Andyou (at least used to) have to get an associate membership to get one.
TimM

Trad climber
somewhere on the Sierra Eastside
Sep 21, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
I got a manual from the AMGA. I got it free when I took their Rock Instructor course :-) About half of the material was general info and the other half was guiding-related info that would be of no use to the general climber.

marky, I don't know why you think you are entitled to a manual from the AMGA. They are not in the business of giving out "manuals" to the general public but training people with existing climbing skills to be guides and promote guiding as a profession.


Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Sep 21, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
DIY manuels probably aren't the best promotional material for what they're selling.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Sep 21, 2006 - 08:14pm PT
^ an astute observation.....hahaha
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 21, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
If you ask me, even people not yet ready to lead should know how to do a counter balance rappel in order to evacuate an injured leader.
But around here we have "experts" who can't even rig a hanging station.

I commend anyone who seeks to put a few more skills in their repertoire.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 21, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
I think the AMGA would have more credibility if they published their standards in advance and in detail, and simply tested perspective guides on their abilties.

Forcing folks to take many thousands of dollars of courses to get certified is a disservice to the climbing community and I think we should hold the AMGA's feet to the fire until they reform. They bought off a bunch of old-schoolers by "grandfathering" them but those days are now over.

A separate organization may provide courses for prospective guides but I think all conflicts of interest between trainers and certifiers should be eliminated so the expert dirtbag can get a job.

Peace

Karl
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Sep 21, 2006 - 10:15pm PT
I totally echo what Karl said above. It's about openess and transparency. Without that you don't have anything.

I used to be an examiner in NZ and one to the things I used to do at the start of every course was to ensure that everyone had their copy of the course guidelines and assessment sheet. This was sent out to participants about 2 months before the course. It would list all the tasks that you would be examined on, the number of points that are awarded to it and the past mark required. Depending of what the topic was some would be more heavily weighted than others. Cooking might be out of 10 marks with a past mark of 6, whereas Client Safety might be out of 30 marks and have a past mark of 25. Everything had a tangible standard that you knew by your actions whether you were above or below the standard.

We also had a technical manual (hundred or so pages thick) that we worked on with assistance of the ACMG and and we had assessors from the US come to NZ to observe on our courses to help them with the assessment process. And visa versa. I observed on a course in the Serrias and one in the Cascades.

All these documents and manuals are available at a miminal charge that covers the cost of producing them. Back home anyone can buy them and they are often used as reference material for club type courses etc. Inparticular a lot of climbers purchase the technical manual for its steep rock/ice rescue sections.

I'm disappointed to hear that the amga hasn't come further than this, but accept that a lot of this takes time and in a country as large as the usa it just takes a lot longer to do these things.

John
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 21, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
I don't see it as a conflict of interest. I did NOT get grandfathered, but after participating in the generation of course curriculum I was able to fast track and go right to the very first exam.
It wasn't easy, and I barely passed.

I think that if a viable candidate presented a resume then he/she could do the same, but many self-appointed "expert guides" despite possessing guiding experience do not also possess the requisite skills and have been skating by.

Its not a hustle but rather a sensible progression that fosters broad capabilities.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Sep 21, 2006 - 10:56pm PT
I think you are right Ron-bo. People should know rescue techniques for self and leader before they get very far into climbing.
marky

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2006 - 11:03pm PT
I don't see how AMGA is disadvantaged by putting content into the public domain.

Incidentally, two weekends ago I ran into two guides (and their clients) on separate days, one a complete as#@&%e, the other very generous. I conjecture that the as#@&%e was AMGA-certified and the fun, safety-minded guide was independent. Just a guess.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 21, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
Not what I would consider a good basis for conjecture, Marky.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 21, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
Ron wrote
"I don't see it as a conflict of interest. I did NOT get grandfathered, but after participating in the generation of course curriculum I was able to fast track and go right to the very first exam.
It wasn't easy, and I barely passed.

I think that if a viable candidate presented a resume then he/she could do the same, but many self-appointed "expert guides" despite possessing guiding experience do not also possess the requisite skills and have been skating by.

Its not a hustle but rather a sensible progression that fosters broad capabilities."

It seems you didn't have to pay for the courses. How much do they cost and how many folks, after this next set of exams, will be able to circumvent them?
My understanding is that the courses will now be required. If somebody cares to refute that, please be sure you have the right info so we'll be properly informed.

I heard it from a few household name climbers who were debating whether to take the "last chance" to test with courses. One is doing it. The other said "Why bother when the permit system in the US prevents certified guides from guiding in most public lands without working for a contracted service?"

Also, you generated the content, are beyond experienced, and you barely passed. Doesn't seem right to me.

And my understanding is that doing it a 'safe' way isn't enough, you have to do it the AMGA way, which is why I would call for the AMGA way to be published and for training courses to be run completely separate from AMGA to eliminate the money grubbing and give a chance to the guy who doesn't have $5-10,000 to blow.

Come on Ron, you didn't pay, would you have paid?

Peace

Karl

Edit: The AMGA site still shows the possibility of challenging the course. Here's the info. Since one of the requirements is

"have complete understanding and mastery of every technique and skill presented in the Advanced Rock Guide Course and the Rock Instructor Course"

That makes me thinkk those techniques and skills should be public domain knowledge for those who can't afford their courses
++++++

Challenging the Rock Guide Certification Exam


If you wish to challenge the Rock Guide Certification Exam without fulfilling the above prereq-uisites,
you may do so, but you will need to meet additional requirements. There are 2 common sce-narios
under which experienced guides occasionally challenge the exam;


• Guides who have not taken the Rock Instructor Course, the Advanced Rock Guide Course, or
the Rock Instructor Certification Exam. These guides must fulfill Prerequisites #1 on this
page.
• Guides who are AMGA Certified Rock Instructors, but have not taken the Advanced Rock

Guide Course must fulfill Prerequisites #2 on the following page.
Although this shortcut method is possible, it is not recommended. Past
exams have demonstrated that participants who have taken a course
prior to an exam do better than those who have not.
Challenge Prerequisites #1

Required for experienced guides who have not taken the Rock Instructor Course, the Advanced Rock
Guide Course, or the Rock Instructor Certification Exam:


1) obtain written authorization from the AMGA Technical Director;
2) have complete understanding and mastery of every technique and skill presented in the
Advanced Rock Guide Course and the Rock Instructor Course;
3) provide a resume of guide training including skills covered, dates of training, routes, trainers,
and curriculum. Include contact information for the person(s) who furnished your training;
4) have completed at least 400 days of documented and diverse, professional guiding (paid) in
the last eight years (you must list and identify these 400 days);
5) provide 2 letters of reference from 2 Certified Rock Guides indicating suitability for this
exam;
6) have at least eight years of climbing experience;
7) are a current Individual Member of the AMGA;
8) provide a personal climbing resume of at least 50 multi-pitch traditional climbs within the
last 2 years, showing each of the following;
a) that you have led or shared lead on at least 50 different, multi-pitch routes, including at
least 5 routes Grade IV or longer and at least 4 routes Grade V or longer;
b) that you have led at least 20 traditional routes rated 5.10c A2 or harder (if these are
multi-pitch, they may be included in the 50 above);
9) can safely and comfortably lead crack and face climbs rated 5.10c, A2 at the time of the exam.
10) are at least age 18;
11) have current Wilderness First Responder certification.


Challenge Prerequisites #2


Required for experienced guides who are AMGA Certified Rock Instructors, but have not taken the
Advanced Rock Guide Course:


1) obtain written authorization from the AMGA Technical Director;
2) have complete understanding and mastery of every technique and skill presented in the
Advanced Rock Guide Course;
3) provide a resume of guide training including skills covered, dates of training, routes, trainers,
and curriculum. Include contact information for the person(s) who furnished your training;
4) have completed at least 200 days of documented and diverse, professional guiding (paid) in
the last eight years (you must list and identify these 200 days);
5) provide 2 letters of reference from 2 Certified Rock Guides indicating suitability for this
exam;
6) have at least five years of climbing experience;
7) are a current Individual Member of the AMGA;
8) provide a personal climbing resume of at least 50 multi-pitch traditional climbs within the
last 2 years, showing each of the following;
a) that you have led or shared lead on at least 50 different, multi-pitch routes, including at
least 5 routes Grade IV or longer and at least 4 routes Grade V or longer;
b) that you have led at least 20 traditional routes rated 5.10c A2 or harder (if these are
multi-pitch, they may be included in the 50 above);
9) can safely and comfortably lead crack and face climbs rated 5.10c, A2 at the time of the exam.
10) are at least age 18;
11) have current Wilderness First Responder certification.

alasdair

Trad climber
scotland
Sep 22, 2006 - 12:41am PT
from a euro perspective the AMGA look kind of interesting very american and covering a full range of abilities and activities.

In the UK we have a two tier system, to work in the UK (required for schools) you need a Mountain leader ticket 1 week course 1 week assesment

there are progression awards of the same duration for winter mountains and technical instruting

The only way to guide in the alps is become IFGMA certified. in the UK you need to do A LOT (5 1000m technical alpine routes, 50 5,10 multi pitch)of climbing and skiing to start the British mountain guide scheme. and it costs about $10k

so maybe the AMGA is not such a bad deal? though it seems like a lot of courses, whereas we train very established climbers
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 22, 2006 - 12:43am PT
Why Karl, you past posting trickster. I sense a certain degree of hostility here. lol

OK, its glass number 4 about to be filled and dinner was great but this is worth addressing as, indeed, I do have a horse in this race.

Your post betrays what I suspect to be the two most common misassumptions about certification.
First and foremost that the cert exam is a test of climbing skill.
Wrong.
In fact, your mention of "household name climbers" shows that many people would assume that the harder a person climbs the better a guide they would be. Often enough the truth is opposite. Would you really want to be guided by somebody who can't tell the difference between YOUR limit and two grades harder?
What's more, the guide's tool box contains many skills rarely employed by high end climbers.
There are plenty of other reasons but I won't belabor the point as I consider misassumption #2 to be the more important misconception.

The exam is not meant to see if the candidate possesses the requisite skill.
Really!
This is important. Read that line again!

By the time that an aspirant reaches the exam he/she needs to have ALREADY DEMONSTRATED ACQUISITION OF ALL NEEDED SKILLS.

That's because the exam is about the JUDGMENT with which those skills are implemented.


THAT'S why the song and dance BEFORE the exam.





That list that you tacked on looks quite extensive. I hadn't seen it before. But I don't see anything offhand unjustified when I consider this second and VERY important point.

Yes I participated (in a minor way) to the course curriculum but, at least in my case, there were other considerations that weighed on my suitability to be among the first ten certified resulting in my barely passing.

We will not go there, but the gun did not have a round chambered.





Now where's my glass?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 22, 2006 - 12:50am PT
Oh yeah, thanks Aldair.



Moulah!!!



You say 5-10K. Sounds steep but say you're right.

How much does it cost to become a doctor? Lawyer?
Yet both professionals could hold the lives of their clients in their hands.
Just because guides are underpaid (and that should change) doesn't mean they should be underskilled as well.

Now where's that glass?
WBraun

climber
Sep 22, 2006 - 12:52am PT
How about the fuking client that holds the guides life in their hands!

Kim Schmitz's scenario comes to mind ......
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 22, 2006 - 12:55am PT
C'est la guerre, Werner.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 22, 2006 - 01:14am PT
Ron wrote"

"Your post betrays what I suspect to be the two most common misassumptions about certification.
First and foremost that the cert exam is a test of climbing skill.
Wrong. "

No hostility Ron, but you are the one making assumptions. I'm quite aware of what the exam tests.

Next
"In fact, your mention of "household name climbers" shows that many people would assume that the harder a person climbs the better a guide they would be. Often enough the truth is opposite. Would you really want to be guided by somebody who can't tell the difference between YOUR limit and two grades harder?
What's more, the guide's tool box contains many skills rarely employed by high end climbers. "

More assumptions based on the fact I was quoting well known climbers. Both these guys have guided both here and abroad for years, and are well versed in climbing with folks of all abilties. They've held top positions in national climbing organizations as well, and although both have climbed for over 2O years, neither has been involved in an accident due to error or neglect.

Next
"There are plenty of other reasons but I won't belabor the point as I consider misassumption #2 to be the more important misconception.

The exam is not meant to see if the candidate possesses the requisite skill.
Really!
This is important. Read that line again!

By the time that an aspirant reaches the exam he/she needs to have ALREADY DEMONSTRATED ACQUISITION OF ALL NEEDED SKILLS.

That's because the exam is about the JUDGMENT with which those skills are implemented.

THAT'S why the song and dance BEFORE the exam. "

What does any of this have to do with the fact that the AMGA basically requires climbers to take it's expensive courses to pass it's exam whether they have those skills and judgement already or not? That's the question I'm asking and none other.

I think the AMGA skills and procedures are fine and dandy. I understand the difference between guiding and climbing. My one and only point is that climbers can get this experience and knowledge without spending $10,000 on the AMGA. The standards and procedures can be published online or in a $100 book. Climbers can learn it on their own or with their own mentors. It can be tested one on one with an AMGA examiner during a $350 day on the rock.

Yes guides are underpaid and that's not going to change in this country. A guided day already costs folks between $220 and $400 (not including walls and such) and there are limits to what folks will spend. So that leaves any pay increase to depend on the division of proceeds between the guide service owners and their guides. In many, many areas, it's a seasonal job no matter how you slice it.

From what I've seen, this percentage guides make seems to be going down rather than up, as services create a two tier system of paying their guides. A lower rate for uncertified or just hired "apprentice" guides, and the higher rate (same as the old rate for everybody) for certified, put-in-their-years guides.

Where's the beef? It's not as if there were nasty strings of accidents and deaths under the old pre-AMGA system. I think YMS had a perfect safety record before the advent of AMGA.

If AMGA can open up guiding to their certified guides on public lands in the US, then they will have done something for us all. As it is, they've defined a problem whose existence was doubtful and imposed a solution that priced many sincere climbers out of contention.

They do offer some $250 and $500 scholarships, but that doesn't put much of a dent in $10,000. Can guides get student loans and pell grants?

Peace

Karl

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 22, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
Looks like Karl should have been on the board. He has all the answers.


So all that is needed is a single day on the rock with only one examiner for $350? This is enough to "test" judgment?
And what, this is preceded by a written "skills" test?



I'm disappointed in you Karl.
I didn't realize when I read your stuff before that you had a tendency to expound on that which you are little familiar with, or go off half cocked.

Its not just about access to public land or how big a piece of the pie a guide gets (a pie which you apparently feel cannot get larger).
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