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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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Or you could find something actually worthwhile to argue about, instead of something that you have no hope of bettering in style, or even coming close. They are making a very proud achievement - why do you care if it does not perfectly conform to your chosen style of self-aggrandizing armchair ethics?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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It is what it is and what it is , is pretty damn awesome.
There are very few real rules in climbing.
1 don't die
2 dont get hurt
3 dont' hurt the climb
4 Be honest
Rating of this climb?
Worthy
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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If you listen real close, you can hear a collective snore.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Well, obviously you have now clue who I am, so I will give you the benifit of the doubt. I'll just let you know the're people, hell even the ones you respect don't agree with this is as clean ascent. Got more?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I'll bet I'm even more sure that you have no idea who I am.
It's way better than my ascents of el-cap. Hell it's better if they leave tomorrow without finishing.
Find me a climb ever done that cannot be IMAGINED being done better?
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:07am PT
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Sh#t, Forgot Who I'm dealing with. Magic line, the nose, counter parts, chuck, but I'm sure you guys have done those. So you have much place to talk.
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:09am PT
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It's just sad. That's why I gave it up. If you need more reason see comments below😞
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:13am PT
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It's all arbitrary after the first 4 rules man.
No matter how we cling to them, the rest of the rules are just a game of our own making for our own interest.
No one else should be required to play.
Tommy and Kevin are playing their game. They haven't hid it. I happen to respect it. You don't have to though.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:16am PT
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It all depends on how you define free climbing.
If you are fairly strict, you might not allow some of these things (each of them makes it easier):
 hanging belays
preplaced gear
rap placed bolts
preclipped draws
tick marks
chalk
tape on fingers
shoes
headlamps
portaledges
people helping with hauling
jumaring back to the high point
following some pitches and not leading all of them
rehearsal of moves
extensive fixed lines
It looks free to me, though. Each pitch pinkpointed by at least one of the people, in succession.
Comparing with other El Cap routes freed by various definitions, the preplaced gear is probably the biggest difference, although it was done on the 99% free ascent of The Shaft (Scott Cosgrove and Kurt Smith), one of the very early and quite hard routes. And preplaced gear was used by at least one person on a couple of pitches of Freerider. For the Dawn Wall, using preplaced gear (beaks, etc.) is a friendlier alternative than adding bolts to pitches of Mescalito that get a fair number of aid ascents.
Jumaring to the high point. Well, that could be avoided if they moved their camp or individual portaledges to the high point each day. It only affects logistics and not the climbing on the pitches, though.
Charlie, which of the above factors (or some I missed) do you feel makes the climb A0?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:20am PT
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I heard if you fall you have to start again from the bottom. I remember telling that to Mugs Stump when I wouldn't let him hangdog. He laughed and called me oldschool or oldfashioned.. something like that anyway.
Some rules don't seen very reasonable in this application.
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:21am PT
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Sad. So sad.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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Be happy man. I'm pretty sure they are.
The climb is what it is. I see no effort to hide what it is. You have a right not to be impressed by it. But trying to pretend there is nothing accomplished here is kinda blind.
Unless you wish to subscribe to the "nothing matters anyway" theory of life. In which case you wouldn't care enough to post would you?
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:36am PT
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Yeah my good friends have freed all the pitches. It's just not a clean free ascent of the wall. If you fixed a line on jam crack's first pitch, jug it then did the second pitch, you'd call it a free ascent of the wall?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:41am PT
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So, don't try it unless you can free it in a day? Is that your solution? I think it's pretty clear this is just a stepping stone to that eventual goal. I don't see anyone else putting in a better effort?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:42am PT
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I agree that jugging a fixed line to the high point doesn't look like free climbing. But you could avoid it by sleeping on a portaledge at the top of Jamcrack p1.
The question in my mind: does jugging the fixed line instead of staying in the portaledge really make climbing p2 a lot easier?
I don't think it makes the climbing easier.
So it doesn't invalidate the individual freeing of the pitches (in my view).
For the Jamcrack example, actually that wouldn't count as a push due to the fixed lines from the ground. But I know what you mean - it's the jumaring that "looks wrong".
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:47am PT
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Feel like I'm talking to the news. Free climbing is stance to stance.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:50am PT
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So, no hanging belays, right?
I know Matt Wilder felt that way and was careful to find stance belays when he came very close to freeing the West Buttress of El Cap.
Another example is the Salathe' Headwall. The upper 2 pitches can be linked to avoid one of the hanging belays.
However, the belay in between can be called "no hands" because you can hook your leg in the crack there and let go of your hands to belay if you really wanted to.
Some people do link it. It's definitely harder that way.
Hanging belays could certainly be abused by making 10 foot pitches, and getting lots of rests. It doesn't look to me like Tommy and Kevin are abusing them.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:51am PT
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Has el cap ever been free climbed then? Are there any routes that have absolutely no hanging belays??
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jan 10, 2015 - 12:53am PT
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I'm only 30 and know more about ethics then most. Have fun buying our books and paying for camping in the park, puts more money in my pocket to give me more free time to talk sh#t about you 5.10 climbers.
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