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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
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thanks madbolter1 and MSmith [and the albatross]
for the time being, i'm going to personally drop the theoretical discussion regarding how copyright should function and how best to go about effecting change if one doesn't agree with the current legal reality. we should probably just start a new thread for that discussion anyway, as there is a 1000 post thread waiting to happen with that can of worms... haha. i'm also dropping it in part, because using ST as a vehicle for civil disobedience would be neither respectful to the management of ST nor does ST have the kind of reach to make it an effective place to take a stand, anyway. [imo]
i'm also going to drop the emo parts of this as well... with two quick exceptions directed towards madbolter1 - ha!: yep, ghost was being inflammatory as well, [but i mostly agreed with him, so gave him a pass - ha!] and if you want to respond to a group by characterizing their statements with "we think this and we think that" then be careful when members of the group have been explicit that they don't think this and they don't think that..
and finally, i'm going to personally drop the should of, would of, could of, regarding how we ended up here, as, at this point, it's the least important of all of these questions...
my hope is that we can drop all of the above and focus, for the time being, on what is the real heart of this matter: how do we as a community deal with the reality as it currently stands?
this information is valuable enough to me personally, that i'm serious in being willing to organize work to secure permissions. in that way these questions won't threaten this body of conversation in the future. while Grossman started these threads i don't buy "the OP owns the thread" concept that the structure of SuperTopo subscribes to and so while i'm willing to step aside if Steve wants to take on organizing the work of securing permissions himself, i don't think responsibility lies only or ultimately in his court.
we all benefit from having these conversations stay as a part of ST, and so if SG doesn't want to secure those rights, then i'd hope there are others who would be willing to step up to the plate with me for what i see as a four step process:
1. catalog and itemize the work needing permission. there are about 150 threads so my guess would be that there are about 2-400 instances of scanned work. for the sake of argument this would probably take about 5-8 wo/man hours.[maybe longer]
2. organize the catalog into groups of rights holders. my guess is that there would be half a dozen major ones [mountain magazine, summit magazine, aaj, and etc.] and another couple dozen minor ones... about 1 hour
3. research, make contact with, and explain our case to the contact points at those rights holders... maybe 12-24 hours? [quite possibly longer]
4. if permissions are given make a note at the beginning of the thread that the scans are courtesy of such and such. if permissions weren't given either try again using madbolter1's suggestion of a petition, or truncate the scans to a point that they were a fair use under current laws... maybe 3-4 hours.
point being if we got a half dozen semi-competent people involved this might take for discussion purposes roughly 6-12 hours each... spread out over 2-3 months, i have no issue with taking that on. obviously, and to a point, the more that volunteer, the less work for each...
so time to put your money where your mouth is ST. if you value these threads and can give a few hours over the course of a few months let me know either here on this thread or via pm, and i'll get the ball rolling.
and as i mentioned if Steve Grossman wants to take this over, or is already in the process of undertaking this endeavour, then i'm happy to take one step to the side.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 29, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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Thanks, Nah. I am wholeheartedly behind your proposed approach and think that it would elevate everything a great deal.
I personally do also appreciate your efforts to pull things into a sort of "index" here on the wild and woolly taco stand. That's a level of selfless dedication that few here exhibit.
Edit: Send me a list of a half-dozen or so, and I'll be happy to make permission-gaining efforts. I'll also be happy to post up a copy of what letters, etc. I used that do prove successful, so others can use them as templates if they wish.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Dec 29, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
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nah000, This seems like a good proposal if it is deemed necessary. ST is a wonderful repository of our history and current events. What I like most is that everyone has the option to reply to an event or climb and give their opinion or experience. This place is a treasure trove of information regarding our sport.
I wouldn't be much help with that sort of work, but can obligate $30 towards hiring someone else to do the dirty work.
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