US Recognition of Cuba

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HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:00am PT
+1 Ward.

Apogee never gets it when Obama talking points are being criticized.

It's all part of his faux standards....

dirtbag

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Obama the commie is very bad man.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:16am PT
And he's black, too.

They just can't seem to deal with that, can they?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Bravo President Obama.

It's about freeking time we turned the page.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:39am PT
What seems to be lacking in all this hand-wringing is that all that Obama has done is to put
Cuba on the same playing field the USSR occupied for many years. It isn't really going to
affect much. If anything it might prolong the status quo by easing remittances and such.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
"hand-wringing"

Look out! Millions are being released from Cuban prisons!

They're coming right at us!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111169
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Moosie, this move will likely ease things a bit for the people but that doesn't mean it will result
in Raul's downfall any time soon. By putting a few more pesos in the peoples' pockets it may
well prolong his tenure. People in India have completely free access to information and travel
yet they live under a de facto dictatorship arguably more harsh than Raul's. Do you see the
Venezuelans giving their bus driver president the heave ho?

DMT, care to expand upon yer snide non sequitur with something substantive? At least I
acknowledge that prognostications of Raul's demise are speculative, at best. And if it were
not for remittances to Mexico things would be far worse there. Or were you taking issue with
my assertion that Cuba will now be treated the same as any other dictatorship? Please to enlighten me.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
By putting a few more pesos in the peoples' pockets it may
well prolong his tenure.

Aren't a few more pesos in the peoples pockets a good thing? Prolong his tenure how exactly? 54 years of embargo haven't shortened their tenure a minute. Or were they right on the verge of breaking...... for the 54th time?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
There seems to be some confusion between normalization of relations and ending the trade embargo. Republicans have called for an end to the trade embargo, and not just when Nixon was Vice President. As several have pointed out, correctly in my opinion, the trade embargo has done little except to help keep the victims of Cuba's oppressive governments (I use plural because the Bautista government was quite evil, too) impoverished. Those who advocated ending the trade embargo did so not to "reward" Castro, but to ease the suffering of the Cuban people.


Of course, Obama's "ending" the embargo is a rather hollow gesture, because doing so requires Congressional action. I'll defer to the longer-running political thread for any discussion about our post-constitutional presidency.

Nonetheless, I applaud any action to end the embargo now, because the timing could not be better. Venezuela, whose oil profits had been propping up the Castro regime, is in its own financial trouble, thanks to our "insanity" in utilizing horizontal drilling and fracking. It cannot hurt for Cuba to become dependent on the United States economy now. And, of course, the Cuban people deserve relief from their economic oppression.

Normalization of relations is a different matter altogether, however. The President has the authority to establish or disestablish relations. I must wonder, however, why he thinks now is the time for normalization. If there has been any lessening of the Castro brothers' grip on their dictatorial power, the evidence stays rather hidden. I know that the blog of Yaoni Sanchez (Cubas's best-known dissident blogger) frets that diplomatic recognition will simply allow the Castros to say that "the government has won."

In summary, I hope Congress authorizes a lifting of the trade embargo, but I question Obama's timing of diplomatic recognition. As for the political fallout, I think discussion of that belongs on the other thread.

John

Edit: I see the Washington Post picked up on Sanchez's blog in its editorial today, too. [Disclaimer for those unaware: The Post Editorial Page is distinctly less friendly to Obama than that of most other "mainstream" papers]:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-obama-administration-extends-the-castro-regime-in-cuba-a-bailout-it-doesnt-deserve/2014/12/17/a25a15d4-860c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
"I applaud any action to end the embargo now, because the timing could not be better. "


Yeah, well, that's not gonna happen without Congressional action, and with Republicans like Rubio running off at the mouth about how Obama's actions are yet another example of 'dictatorial leadership', that doesn't seem likely, does it?

"I question Obama's timing of diplomatic recognition."

It's legacy building, clearly. So what? It's about time, too. Bush coulda done it himself, and it would've been just as 'about time'.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
How does that definition of insanity go? Keep doing what you're doing and expect different results.

Perhaps Obama is not insane
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Yous guys are always interjecting yer mental speculations, to channel Werner, into yer reading
between the lines. Survival, I made NO value judgement about Obama's move. Au contraire,
I applauded it on page one of this thread. I'm happy for the Cuban people but I assert that this
will most likely do little to hasten Raul's demise. I give him, and his ilk, 5 MORE YEARS,
at the least.

DMT, yes, I have heard that the Evil Empire, as previously defined, has ceased to exist. That
it came about after my supposed tenure at a particular establishment in Langley, VA, for which
I was told I was well qualified, in no way absolves me of my complicity. It also came about
because Михаил Горбачёв was a limp-wristed idealist who took his foot off of the gas and
suffered from the result of terminal understeer. I admit that I am less well apprised of Raul's
proclivity for understeer or oversteer however I believe he will err on the side of oversteer.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
I'm all in favor of normal relations with Cuba if only so their musicians can come up here and use real recording studios.

I hope that before we participate in their economy we use our influence to effect some positive change in Cuba. Right now the average income per capita as a part of GDP is about $5K. But the average Cuban earns about $1K. Unless this ratio changes won't U.S. $ largely go to enrich the very small number of people in power?

Another thing I wonder about. The rest of the world has been trading freely with Cuba all along, yet the regime there has not allowed this trade to benefit the people one bit.

I read the other day that almost all food production is done on government sponsored communal farms, and that if an individual wants to farm on their own they are limited to .1 acre?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 18, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
I question Obama's timing of diplomatic recognition.

Thank you and good point. Why did it happen now with Congress just gone on holiday? Whoops, I just answered my own question.

fact is, given the ideologically driven nightmare in Washington, there's really only a few weeks in any election cycle in which things can actually happen.

The same situation with Diane Feinsteins report. Drop it at a point when you're running out of town and won't be around to take the blowback.

expect more shoes to drop over the "holidays" and before the Republican Senate comes to town.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 18, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Survival, I made NO value judgement about Obama's move.

I didn't say that you did. I only questioned your printed text.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 18, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Visiting NYC for the holidays.

The big take here today Is MLB in Havana within 5 years.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 18, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
A truly sad day for the poor enslaved Cuban people.

dirtbag

climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
How has our posture towards Cuba succeeded?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 18, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
"A truly sad day for the poor enslaved Cuban people."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/video/video-celebration-in-havana-for-us-cuba-plan-to-restore-ties/article22123729/
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
Only relics living in the past are whining about this step towards normalizing relations with Cuba.
Messages 41 - 60 of total 83 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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