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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 11, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
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Human nature is kinda part of the package. Let it be. Or try more control, yes that's what we need.
Here are your parameters of topics that don't incite indecent behaviour.
Not for me.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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If you are asking, that makes me think you'd like to see a solution to the negative, aggressive off-topic banter.... Easiest would be to make a secondary tab. "Climbers Forum" is just that - topics related, however loosely, to climbing. Make a separate tab called something like "Off Topic Blather," "NCR Forum"(Not Climbing Related), and let people have at it.
The line is a delicate one. The same topic started by one person might be viewed differently when started by someone with a history of baiting and trolling. I don't think it is so easy to draw a line as to what's acceptable. For one thing, half the guys here would be quite miffed if they can't occasionally make boob threads, which really, when you consider it, are as off topic as any political thread.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
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The problem is not the subject matter or topic.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
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I think the subjects might be less important, and more the people typing them.
Keeping the most caustic posters banned will probably help the overall atmosphere here. Go away trolls! More trip reports please!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
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This thread will be a good example soon.
+1 climbing related tab
Leave all the junk here as is, if the OT crew needed to adapt to change the world might just end. Those who want climbing content are willing and ready to look elsewhere or go thru the arduous process of clicking on a tab next to TRs called "climbing threads" or whatever
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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when I am not arguing politics on the internet, I am teaching my goldfish to ride a bike.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
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Human nature is to be partisan to our own beliefs. What I believe is right and what others believe is wrong. It inspires us to act and develop our awesome heuristic behaviors. What other choice do we have - we can't figure this all out in our heads!, even if we do believe that's what we do.
What do you want? Do that. And thanks!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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I don't have a problem with that thread or any other politard thread. I never click on them.
The ebb and flow of supertopo is what keeps me around. I'd be bummed and probably leave if it got all sanitized and sh#t.
Thx for the forum Chris!
Cheers
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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Specifically, do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo?
No.
They are ruining our pristine neighborhood.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
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For me, it's not the topic but the anger and meanness associated with certain subjects that's disturbing. I associate that with people posting anonymously. I think people are far more likely to attack others when they can hide their identities, and don't see any reason to allow people to post anonymously. (although I'm sure there are technical issues with verifying identities)
I never see it mentioned but I think women and minorities/ethnicities have a fairly tough time here. Of course, this may be due to my "libtard" outlook in general.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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Perhaps the question to ask isn't
When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong?
but rather
When does that is OT become so partisan that it doesn't belong?
????
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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partition this site...most here ask for it, but nothing changes..just by your OP means you think something is wrong. Please DO SOMETHING to fix and modernize ST..
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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I don't have a problem with that thread or any other politard thread. I never click on them.
The ebb and flow of supertopo is what keeps me around. I'd be bummed and probably leave if it got all sanitized and sh#t.
Thx for the forum Chris!
+1 What The Larry said.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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I would love to be able to engage in off-topic discussions on all kinds of subjects, even including politics and religion, with most of the posters on this site.
But there are eight or ten people -- and we all know who they are -- whose idea of "discussion" is to scream "You're a f*#king as#@&%e, and everything you believe is not only stupid, but dead wrong." They ruin it for everyone else.
I guess my question to you, Chris, is why do you let that handful of people wreck things for everyone else? You know who they are, and you know that most of them don't post much climbing content, so why not give them one polite warning to stop ruining things for others, and just drop the axe if they don't heed you?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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Only here will someone celled "Roots" be calling for segregation.
A gear whores wet dream ? Coloradocrack gear for sale
So on Topic yet perplexing.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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It's off when Off Topic Marmot shows up. (Do a search.)
Speaking seriously though, it's nice to see you actually visit this subject, and ask for opinions. Here's my 2 buffalo nickels.
The way I see it, there are two options.
One, continue as you are and only delete threads once you get enough complaints on them/feel they aren't appropriate, or just let it roll unhindered. For a lot of folks, letting it roll doesn't work. My post count/visitation has shrunk dramatically over the last year as a result of the high amount of these threads. It becomes too much hassle to separate the wheat from the chaff, for me. I am well aware that I don't need to (and don't) click on what I don't want, but it's getting harder to even find the content that I want. At the same time, regulating the forum to climbing content only would not be a fair representation of who and what we are as climbers, not to mention creating a huge time investment for your staff to moderate it.
Two, create a separate tab, which the campfire has been requesting of you for years. Let the OT stuff roll there, unless it becomes a topic that is going to affect your business - I.E. losing a major sponsor because of the content. You run a business, we all understand that.
I feel that option #1 is costing you traffic, and affecting the quality content that used to be prevalent here. A lot of very good posters and quality climbers have turned their back on ST due to the bickering. On the other side, if you go to a method of nuking OT threads, you're also going to lose traffic because of the loss of content and people leaving due to post deletion. From an SEO perspective that's not the greatest idea either.
I would hazard to guess that if you did a poll, most users here would go for option #2. The disadvantage of the second option is that you will need to moderate more to keep an eye on the threads to ensure they don't turn into a garbage fest of attacks. A good example here is the 77 plane crash thread - you have had a poster there that has been attacking the OP for years and has completely destroyed the thread IMO, and yet you do nothing.
The other disadvantage is that you will have to have SOME form of structure, so that people know what's OT and what isn't. You shouldn't have to spell it out as we are supposedly all adults here, but it will have to be done.
The real question I would pose to you, Chris, is this:
Are you going to make a decision based on your business, or based on the community that has gathered here?
You're a businessman, but you are also a climber. I feel that you need to find a compromise that suits both, but you need to take some action one way or the other. To my eyes, the Taco has been disintegrating the last couple years. Nothing changes, if nothing changes.
At the end of the day, I know very well there is no way to make everyone happy. But speaking for myself, I'd really like to see a change on this subject.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
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Personal attacks are the problem it seems to me. The subject matter is not the problem. Some people can handle disagreements in a funny or adult manner others not so much.. where to draw the line? How to draw the line? Tough calls sometimes. I personally do not find internet attacks on me to be worth more than a chuckle.. I dont behave that way here but I have on other forums. Can't say it ever bothered me unless it was someone I personally knew and cared about.
Most people don't have that thick a skin though and the behavior drives away people I really value. It derails some great conversations at times too.
I would try to concentrate on individual behavior instead of topic.
I'm really glad to have all topics on one forum page. It took a while to get used to but I do find myself checking out things I would not if segregated. Sometimes some real gems.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
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Once a month, look for the user with the greatest number of posts, and deactivate that account.
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SicMic
climber
across the street from Marshall
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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Chris- you continue to make the best argument for having the climbing forum separate from the OT forum. I can't imagine (but could be wrong) that it would be so difficult to part their ways. I, for one, don't mind some of the OT foolishness as it is easy to avoid. But the fact that you are soliciting input again shows your hesitation to take action. It's your campfire, gild it as you wish.
Mic
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
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I love the campfire style of this forum.
It's awesome to read about some impressive and even some not so impressive climbing accomplishments. It is great that a forum like this exists for folks to learn about others they may not have known about, such as the Fly'n Brian thread. It's like an online library with some of the legends of the sport telling their tales.
There are many interesting threads which make this forum unique. I think it is cool that there are hunting and fishing stories, weather alerts, wildfire tales, aviation stuff, etc… It's why I keep coming back, more so than the climbing TRs.
There are lots of popular threads that I don't even click on. Partly because they devolve to name calling, but mainly because I have no interest in sharing my religious or political views on the inter web with a bunch of virtual strangers. Since you are asking, my two cents would be to give certain anonymous offenders who might cause problems a warning or two before banning them.
Thanks for the great forum and waste of perfectly good time.
Darn that clock is ticking.
Albert Newman (a.ka. "the albatross")
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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You will never escape politcal debate. Best to leave it confined to those threads, than try to play police all the time. Nobody is forced to click on a thread with an obvious political OT title.
What I see as a MUCH more irritating issue is the "clever" (hint:you're not) folks who think posting a riff-on-an-existing thread title is a good idea. An example: The "Overrated" thing going on right now that has spawned about half-dozen spinoff/lookalikes and begin dominate the front page. Hey, dipshits? It's not cute, it's not funny. Maybe the first time, long ago, certainly not now. Give it a f@#$^%$g rest already.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
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We are all adults here, we know what doesn't belong. Some are just too selfish to give a sh#t.
And Elcap....you are right, but I am lazy. If I don't see anything interesting within the first 3 pages I close the web broswer and do something else.
Also....I imagine I am not the only one doing this. So that is why 1/2 the threads on the front page are non climbing.
Some say "this is what the people want!" I won't argue that, but it isn't necessarily true either. This is what current active posters want, and yes there is a big difference.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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Dump the political threads. But then where do you stop ? Threads such as the drought thread will turn to the political blame game soon enough.
Other forums have a "campfire" section for OT stuff.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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I like the Wild West approach, with everything right there without having to click open folders, which pretty much drove me away from rockclimbing.com. Last time I looked, one or two of the folders at that site hadn't had posts in over a year. And those were climbing-related.
You might consider making it a tad more difficult to start a new thread. Some of the latest are humorous but inane. Also, it would be really good to require posters to use their own names . . . but this may be impossible or onerous.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
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"I would hazard to guess that if you did a poll, most users here would go for option #2. The disadvantage of the second option is that you will need to moderate more to keep an eye on the threads to ensure they don't turn into a garbage fest of attacks. A good example here is the 77 plane crash thread - you have had a poster there that has been attacking the OP for years and has completely destroyed the thread IMO, and yet you do nothing.
The other disadvantage is that you will have to have SOME form of structure, so that people know what's OT and what isn't. You shouldn't have to spell it out as we are supposedly all adults here, but it will have to be done.
The real question I would pose to you, Chris, is this:
Are you going to make a decision based on your business, or based on the community that has gathered here?
You're a businessman, but you are also a climber. I feel that you need to find a compromise that suits both, but you need to take some action one way or the other. To my eyes, the Taco has been disintegrating the last couple years. Nothing changes, if nothing changes.
At the end of the day, I know very well there is no way to make everyone happy. But speaking for myself, I'd really like to see a change on this subject."
What Vegasclimber said x2!
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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"If you eliminate the OT threads, where would all that arrogance, vitriol and hate move to? Do you think those people would just change their behavior? I am sure they will pollute the climbing related threads."
What Moose said x2 as well......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 11, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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I don't have a problem with that thread or any other politard thread. I never click on them.
The ebb and flow of supertopo is what keeps me around. I'd be bummed and probably leave if it got all sanitized and sh#t.
Thx for the forum Chris!
I'm with Larry and Mr E on this one.
And you people whining for seperate tabs, if you don't understand why that wouldn't work you're flat out not paying attention! You think a flamethrower type is going to politely keep their trolls in the proper tab? Really?
It would accomplish absolutely nothing but make this site more generic.
Cmac asks us to play nice. Heed the request or face the potential whack! Really, how hard is that to understand?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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wood burning stoves, clearly.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
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Maybe Dirtbag can step up and do the right thing by deleting the offending thread.
And maybe everyone else can demonstrate a little adult self-control, and not start a "son of" thread to replace it.
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
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The n00blets at Mtn Proj discuss actual climbing all the time and have separate forums for o.t. sh#t. Seems to me they have it going where as this place has turned into an old folks home of people repeating themslves to the point where you wonder if half the people here dont wear diapers now.
The trip reports here are awesome, more climbing, less whining.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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I'd axe the boob threads. Slander ... well, if someone was going to retro bolt wings of steel or move one of the white Rastafarian rocks then maybe they deserve it. (just kidding) Subjects like Ferguson can easily devolve into white supremacy, as can immigration issues. I think the line would be where you make people feel unwelcome. Otherwise I also like the wild west environment and think it would be counterproductive to try to control what people want to talk about.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
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Seems pretty simple to have a Climbing tab, an OT tab, and a Butthurt tab.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
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I'm with the "if you don't want to look at it, don't click it" group.
An "OT" tab would be nice though
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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Can't everyone just bag their own sh#t and take it home.
Might be time for a new climbers forum.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
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Maybe Dirtbag can step up and do the right thing by deleting the offending thread.
I frankly do not care if it is deleted. There is no content there that anyone will want to revisit in 6 months. The main point was to funnel all political talk into one thread, and I think it mostly succeeds. My only hesitation is that members who posted there might get ticked off by me nuking it.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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As a virtual campfire, a lot of OT subjects seem just fine. However, politics is usually one the least discussed topics at most campfires I've sat around.
I applaud nuking some of the more egregious flame-bait topics, and the more persistent trolls.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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You could split the forum into two sections. climbing stuff and OT stuff. you do run the risk of killing the forum though. sometimes a change is good, somtimes in the internet age a change makes you extinct....?
NEICE has a largely unmoderated forum called The Dark Side. You can only see the content if you know the password. You only get the password by invitation or by figureing it out. the password is obscene as in NSFW. you used to have to log in with the obcenity every time you viewed the site. Logging in with the obcenity put you in the mood to rant, rave and froth at the mouth. the forrum thrived to the point of haveing anual dark side bonfire beer bashes. about 4 or 5 years ago they changed it so that you only needed to log in once and then the Dark Side was always viewable. It fizzeled out and almost completly went away. I doubt there were more than 20 posts last season......
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
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VegasClimber said it best. Well done.
I've given up on asking for a 2nd tab because that concept has been ignored for as long as I've been here. Who knows, getting one might not change anything, but it sure should allow those who want climbing only content to see climbing only content.
The spinoff threads are also tiresome. They were cute 10 years ago, catch up.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
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Simple solution , the OT TAB.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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I too am among those that really think a second tab for political or off climbing topic threads would be fantastic.
I find that I post here and write less Trip Reports here than I used to thanks to the front page that is often clogged up with non-climbing content. I don't participate in those discussions, but its a choice to click. No big deal. I'd just be more stoked to write and post and contribute if there were more easily visible climbing topics up front.
The truth is, the climbing topics (or any other topic) that falls three pages back often slowly die out and the conversations and stoke fall on deaf "ears".
I'm fine if the Political threads stay around somehow, because a lot of those dudes squabbling over there are really rad climbers....or once were....and it is my hope that every once in a while they contribute to the climbing scene here.
ALSO....IS IT JUST ME OR HAVE OTHER USERS BEEN FINDING THAT WHEN THEY CLICK ON THINGS HERE AT SUPERTOPO THEY CONSTANTLY GET RE-DIRECTED TO OTHER WEBSITES!!! Its a total drag. About every dozen clicks or so I am being re-directed to sponsor sites and spam sites. Please let me know if its just me.
Thanks!
Scott
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong?
Specifically, do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo?
Does the inherent partisan nature of the topic simply beg people to fall into name calling and personal attacks (which is the worst of the forum from many people's point of view, mine included).
I think that's the wrong question. A better approach would be to more proactive about warning individual people to behave nicer/post less.
This, unfortunately, means more moderation, more work. No getting around it.
Ghost pretty much sums up my thoughts on the current situation:
"I would love to be able to engage in off-topic discussions on all kinds of subjects, even including politics and religion, with most of the posters on this site.
But there are eight or ten people -- and we all know who they are -- whose idea of "discussion" is to scream "You're a f*#king as#@&%e, and everything you believe is not only stupid, but dead wrong." They ruin it for everyone else.
I guess my question to you, Chris, is why do you let that handful of people wreck things for everyone else? You know who they are, and you know that most of them don't post much climbing content, so why not give them one polite warning to stop ruining things for others, and just drop the axe if they don't heed you?"
What to do?
Perhaps we could get partway there if you tell the least pleasant/most prolific posters of your choosing to A) not start new OT threads and B) not to post to other folks' "OT" threads, if labeled as such. For three months. See if that helps the dynamic.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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"but then it wouldn't be a caaaaampfire"
lol
politics is usually one the least discussed topics at most campfires I've sat around
yep
weird how the more prolific you are as a shitposter the more likely you are to dislike the idea of an OT tab
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
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Only here will someone celled "Roots" be calling for segregation.
Funny post, but I prefer to think my request is for organization of topics so they can be easily found or ignored.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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^^ case in point
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Dec 11, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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maybe all the good words can be in red ink
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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Threads specifically designed to bring out the worst in human behavior do not belong. It is a subjective standard, but it is your site so you need to decide when the line has been crossed. It is better the nuke the thread early before some folks feel they have too much personally invested. My $.02.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
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Threads specifically designed to bring out the worst in human behavior do not belong.
That's a good way to put it.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
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I don't have a problem with that thread or any other politard thread. I never click on them.
The ebb and flow of supertopo is what keeps me around. I'd be bummed and probably leave if it got all sanitized and sh#t.
Thx for the forum Chris! +1 What The Larry said.
+1 What MisterE said about what The Larry said.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
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I used to be a proponent of making separate categories for various topics. Not so much any more. But I do hate that the political threads cause climbing threads and TRs to drop off the page. Personally, I don't think political threads belong on the forum. I don't click on them anymore. The spew and vitriol on them is pointless.
Some people just want to find a fight and throw virtual swings at each other. Fine by me but take it somewhere else. I'd like to see a separate category for the political crap to keep them from dropping climbing content.
OT threads like health, bikes, RIPs, etc. have value.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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Unsure. More climbing stuff would be good, but I don't know if more moderation will make more good content show up. Pay for good stories might bring around more climbers and good writing. I would like to do write more, but it is hard work and I suck at it. $100 if a TR gets 10,000 views by someone other than yourself. Ha Ha. A guidebook if a photo gets rated by more than like three people.
BTW it close to 70 degrees today and is supposed to be again tomorrow.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Does the inherent partisan nature of the topic simply beg people to fall into name calling and personal attacks (which is the worst of the forum from many people's point of view, mine included).
I think what you are really asking here is, is this kind of thread what I want my brand to be represented by?
I think you know the answer. So what's the solution? How can you please all camps without generating a ton of work you don't want to do or pay for?
I think you can separate things and keep them the same. You can add a view option to everyone's profile. Much like a folder in windows. The current supertopo standard would be called "Classic" view. For those users nothing would change.
Then you create a "Tabs" view where there is a "Climbing" and a "OT" tab.
You could add a box to the post new topic page which would add a "climbing" or "ot" value to each new thread. Most users would be respectful of that but trolls would obviously need moderation.
For that you could give some long time users who are interested moderation powers to move threads to the proper places and notify management about problem users.
You could make "Tabs" the standard view for all new users and guests to represent the brand better. Or leave it as it but give those who want it a choice.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Dec 11, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
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Calculate the ratio of personal attacks (many here are saying they are the real culprit) to no-personal attack messages in the thread. When a threshold is reached, send the attackers to the corner for a time-out.
If the attacks continue then rectal hydration is in order.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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What everyone seems to not get is that if you want to moderate everything then you have to read everything. No one wants that job on this site.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
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Was just checking the Oregon surf site. They have a tab for " those who think they surf" . This where all the bs goes.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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I think of the political threads the same way I think of television.
Babysitter of the masses.
They keep the crags less crowded too!
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
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I'm mostly interested in old bitter dudes posting about their BITD adventures. And their thoughts on religion...so interesting! But knowing what classic rock song they think is the best, well, doesn't get any better than that.
Unless they talking hunting...that's the ultimate. More!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
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Meh...I trust The Chris. He's on The Scene.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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The ebb and flow of supertopo is what keeps me around. I'd be bummed and probably leave if it got all sanitized and sh#t.
Perfectly said.
I like the discussion(s), all of them. There's a lot more to this site than just milktoast "all-climbing" stuff (I know Dingus, copyright violation - so sue me).
And I do read some of the political stuff.
I miss Fatrad and the other "outrageous" posters. They give/gave the site character. Even people like The Chief: the guy's a major jackass, and an endless form of entertainment. Their "outrageous" stuff makes this site's forum stand out!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
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Chris,
Many of us have been asking you for a separation of climbing stuff and non-climbing stuff for years.
Why don't you TRY doing this?? What do you have to lose? Split the forum into two places, and see how it goes. If it doesn't work and you lose business, reverse the move.
Or do as Big Mike suggests - have a "classic" view and a "tabs" view.
The off-topic stuff is incredibly tiresome. You are right - it is time to do something about it.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 11, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
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Chris,
I like to come to this forum for many reasons but one feature that makes it fun is the way off topic discussions.
I really enjoy the people here. Even the ones that hate on me.
I care what the people here say on these odd topics.
Naturally not everyone feels this way and some people get way too serious and probably call you up to cry foul. You certainly don't deserve the grief.
For the ON TOPIC discussions this forum is one of the most authoritative sources in the world. You are totally ruling the "community" aspect of the old "Content, Community, Commerce" formula.
Thank you for maintaining this forum and putting up with the crap. I'd love to help you find ways to monitize this zoo.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 11, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
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Hey PUD...
What's your opinion of Chuckwalla?
I say double thumbs up compared to Willow. Far more technical IMO.
I took some hot laps on the Chuckwalla course on an Aprilia RSV4 Factory and loved it! Nice elevations and smoooooth corners.
The guy that rode it right after me wadded that $40k machine high-siding it into turn one. Damn shame.
I've also ridden a RS125 around this track and found it to be really fun as long as you kept your momentum up.
I raced there on my R1 and did well.
Willow is a very old track and doesn't compare to Chuckwalla on many levels. Hell of a lot closer to home though.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 11, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
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my two bits: make self-regulation easier, and at the same time be more specific in communicating st managements vision for the forum...
for example, here's one possible way:
1. make it so that all climbing threads are a different color than the ot ones... say red...
2. have a one line instruction on the top of the first page, something like: "If this page is more than 20% blue ot threads [or 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever the st mngmnt thinks is a good number] then please add to or start a red climbing thread"
i think you'd be surprised... there are a lot of people here who would support your idea of how you think this joint should be...
because as far as your original question of when does ot become so far off that it doesn't belong?
there is no good answer to this, because if there is, it means someone has to sit and f*#king moderate everything... and lord knows ain't nobody got time for that. especially you and/or your crew...
self-moderation is key for your own time input... that and the occasional hand of god deletion move, to keep the plebs on their toes... haha.
edit: also a +1 or +5 or wherever we are at for Big Mike's idea...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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This thread is OT and so far off from climbing stuff.
I'm calling Chris McNamara to tell him to ban the Original Poster (OP) of this thread ......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Dec 11, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
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Werner wins the thread!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 11, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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Chris: Thanks for the question. I tried to carefully work through all 94 responses, to date.
I've been on the forum since Nov. 2008. The forum has been a great resource for me and I've participated as fully as I want. (I believe I have been a good contributor.)
In the last two years, I have participated less, and I've seen other participants, whose thoughts & posts I enjoy, either drop out or post rarely.
My thoughts on the subject have mostly centered around the negative people on ST. I appreciate that many have been banned, with my regretting the passing of only a very-few.
I used to believe that ST would be best served by breaking the threads into two-streams. Political & Religious, and Climbing related.
I have now changed my mind.
I do look at politard threads fairly often, although I totally avoided the Ferguson thread and usually avoid the Climate Change thread, due to the acrimony that was and is the main features of those threads.
I confess to reading the “Why Republicans are Wrong” thread almost every day, and on occasion posting what I consider an “original-thought” on that thread.
Perhaps that is one of the problems with the political and religious threads? Many of those posting on those threads are just passing on thoughts they have copied from the internet.
And of course the personal attacks bother me.
I do agree with what ghost said:
I would love to be able to engage in off-topic discussions on all kinds of subjects, even including politics and religion, with most of the posters on this site.
But there are eight or ten people -- and we all know who they are -- whose idea of "discussion" is to scream "You're a f*#king as#@&%e, and everything you believe is not only stupid, but dead wrong." They ruin it for everyone else.
I guess my question to you, Chris, is why do you let that handful of people wreck things for everyone else? You know who they are, and you know that most of them don't post much climbing content, so why not give them one polite warning to stop ruining things for others, and just drop the axe if they don't heed you?
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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There's a lot to be said for the "wild wild west" style of this forum. I also prefer the concept of self regulation.
At one point I got all caught up in "political" threads. Too many personal attacks and disrespect eventually convinced me to stick to climbing content. I tried starting a "political" thread a few days ago and it went nowhere. Hey, I got the message.
I always get a positive response to my trip reports. It inspires me to go out and invent new adventures just so I can share with my ST friends.
Which reminds me, I gotta get out soon.
Stand by for epic adventures in Sedona.
Is it ok to post a biking related thread every once in a while????
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
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Hey Chris
I used to be a member of the Joe Rogan board (lol I'm lame) and they had a system where a second room was put up where all the "OT" threads went, and anyone who was banned wouldn't get to post elsewhere. I think having a system where there's an OT tab would be great, and anyone who continues to post OT stuff in the climbing tab can only see the OT tab. Might be too tricky but will allow those who just can't help themselves to have a room to yell in without having to ban people constantly - people who tend to find a way back anyway.
Just my .02, I'm a dork that's been around messageboards for a while and have seen some stuff that I thought worked. All the best.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
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I say leave it alone, it is a camp fire. Kinda scary that I agree with Ron.
Don't leave the camp fire burning dimmer than when you found it
It is okay to throw a log on the fire, problem is when some dipsh1t throws gasoline in.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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There's a lot to be said for the "wild wild west"
Thank you for not saying campfire
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
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Chris, it's not off-topic threads that drive me and perhaps others away. It's the hateful posters. Bullies. Misogynists. Narcissists. In a few cases, racists. Crackpots and extremists galore. Those whose main purpose is to cause offence. People who would never say the things they do here in an environment in which they would be held accountable, i.e. around a campfire. They need to be held accountable here for their behaviour.
If you purged them on a periodic basis, the forum would be more welcoming.
Dividing the forum into two (actually three) public tabs - trip reports, general climbing discussion, and non-climbing - might also be worth a try. You'd need to be clear as to what is meant by general climbing discussion, and perhaps firmer in keeping things there on track.
If all the conspiracy theory, extreme right wing, and global warming denier type posters and threads disappeared, no one would miss them. Reasoned discussion of science, politics, religion and current affairs may have an (off topic) place. It's something that intelligent climbers often do. Allowing that to be drowned by the crackpots doesn't serve anyone.
ps Eric's idea of limiting all posters to say 20/day is also worth considering, although it may be a challenge to control those with multiple posterality disorder.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
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Chris: One other thought on OT threads. Those that post an OT thread that is obviously intended to provoke aggressive comments, should also be excluded from the forum.
A good example is Ron Anderson. I do like much of what Ron is and posts, but he starts more "In your face" threads than anyone else.
Per his earlier post on this thread:
Weve had this conversation before CMac, and I have indeed cut down my OT threads by about 80%. My last one being "Watch the liar" about recent immigration issues that affect us all. It went to over 200 replies in no time
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
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I think people complaining that the forum sucks and that there's too much OT stuff brings the place down more than the OT stuff itself.
It's all good, I don't know enough to form an opinion on the tabs thing or which OT threads don't belong...
Edit: A "like" button to bump trip reports would be cool, but that's not really what you're asking about...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
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Chris McNamara asked:
Does the inherent partisan nature of the topic simply beg people to fall into name calling and personal attacks (which is the worst of the forum from many people's point of view, mine included).
atchafalaya said in post #4:
The problem is not the subject matter or topic.
Name calling and personal attacks happen in climbing threads, too. Name calling and personal attacks are stupid and can hurt or cause alarm and the occasional poster should be banned. That seems the only cure for that problem.
Milder OT content displacing climbing is a different problem. I don't know what bugs people about threads they aren't interested in, but if tabs would clear the air for them, why not do it?
Let's be clear that butt plugs and Da Brim are grandfathered into climbing content, though.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
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Chris, it's not off-topic threads that drive me and perhaps others away. It's the hateful posters. Bullies. Misogynists. Narcissists. In a few cases, racists. Crackpots and extremists galore. Those whose main purpose is to cause offence. People who would never say the things they do here in an environment in which they would be held accountable, i.e. around a campfire. They need to be held accountable here for their behaviour.
I agree with this part of Anders post, but not the separate tabs bit.
I, too, like the wild west non-tabs aspect - and it is probably a pain in the ass to monitor what goes where with the tabs, as well.
Once the monitoring starts...
Russ had a funny interaction with Moosedrool about a 30-inane-post-a-day limit that really seemed reasonable and somehow relevant...
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Brian
climber
California
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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Chris, it's not off-topic threads that drive me and perhaps others away. It's the hateful posters. Bullies. Misogynists. Narcissists. In a few cases, racists. Crackpots and extremists galore. Those whose main purpose is to cause offence. People who would never say the things they do here in an environment in which they would be held accountable, i.e. around a campfire. They need to be held accountable here for their behaviour.
If you purged them on a periodic basis, the forum would be more welcoming.
Dividing the forum into two (actually three) public tabs - trip reports, general climbing discussion, and non-climbing - might also be worth a try. You'd need to be clear as to what is meant by general climbing discussion, and perhaps firmer in keeping things there on track.
If all the conspiracy theory, extreme right wing, and global warming denier type posters and threads disappeared, no one would miss them. Reasoned discussion of science, politics, religion and current affairs may have an (off topic) place. It's something that intelligent climbers often do. Allowing that to be drowned by the crackpots doesn't serve anyone.
Amen!
A-fecking-men
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John M
climber
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
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do OT threads have some sort of Svengali-like, mesmerizing power that hypnotizes people and draws them in?
nope.. I believe what people are saying is that because of how the forum is formatted, the front page gets dominated by inflammatory threads because they receive a lot of posts. So those who primarily want climbing have to dig and search for climbing topics. These guys don't spend loads of time here, so the climbing threads drop back very fast. Russ' climbing topic on SAR is one recent example. Those threads don't get lots of post, so they drop back quickly. One solution is one I have been advocating for years. RyanD also suggested it on the first page of this thread.
Leave the main page of the forum the same. ( for those who like it the way it is )
Create a climbing topics tab like the trip reports tab. Put all climbing topics in there, but also leave them on the main page like trip reports are handled. Then everyone gets what they want. The main page stays the same, but there is an area where most of the off topics are filtered out.
The issue with that becomes deciding what is a climbing topic. But it wouldn't need that much policing. Once every few weeks just move the threads that don't belong.
The bigger issue to me is what Ghost and others have said. The few people whose primary form of communication is insults. They can dominate a good conversation and often destroy it.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
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Specifically, do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo? The political threads used to run rampant, but a few years ago there was a concerted effort to limit the noise to just 2 or 3 mega topics. This was not mandated by admin, and I avoid those threads like the plague anyway. A type of forum cleansing would be a disaster IMO - don't try to reinvent the wheel.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
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Ghost pretty much sums up my thoughts on the current situation:
"I would love to be able to engage in off-topic discussions on all kinds of subjects, even including politics and religion, with most of the posters on this site.
But there are eight or ten people -- and we all know who they are -- whose idea of "discussion" is to scream "You're a f*#king as#@&%e, and everything you believe is not only stupid, but dead wrong." They ruin it for everyone else.
I guess my question to you, Chris, is why do you let that handful of people wreck things for everyone else? You know who they are, and you know that most of them don't post much climbing content, so why not give them one polite warning to stop ruining things for others, and just drop the axe if they don't heed you?"
Word.
Or,as atchafalaya said:
The problem is not the subject matter or topic.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
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There are those that will say the "rectal hydration" thread is too off topic for a climbing forum. But, honestly I laughed like hell.
From my experience, it is the perfect campfire discussion....
In all honesty, I think the forum needs a bit more moderation rather than banning topics and users. I think you are going in the wrong direction with that policy. Getting rid of people and deleting all their posts is not a good thing to do on a regular basis. IMHO
Rather, if people think you are watching over them, and they know that an inappropriate post will get cited as "post deleted", then people will slowly learn who is doing it, and what is tolerable and what isn't.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
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I really appreciate it when Mighty Hiker visits us from Outside the Asylum.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
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Eric's idea of limiting all posters to say 20/day is also worth considering
Locker's head would blow completely off
Why do you hate Locker
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
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Chris, I am 100 percent in favor of NO CHANGE. We’re a special community that has formed inadvertently, thanks to you.
There is no other website or place that offers the “campfire” approach where anyone is allowed to talk about anything, but knowing we’re that all are just a bunch of climbers, and nothing more. With this, Supertopo has soul. Don’t go to some scrubbed forum about climbing only. After all, those of us that hung out with the Greats know that only a small fraction of our discussions or commonalities had to do with climbing. Yeah, we share climbing stories and tips, and sometimes boast; but, at the end of the day, we’re often only just another face that steps into the light or smoke at the valley campfire gathering.
I like this place and I like that it exists for me to drop by anytime to meet up with my friends to tell our favorite climbing or mountaineering stories, or debate about today’s world topics. That’s what makes Supertopo what it is.
To change this site significantly would be a great loss to many, and a wet blanket on the climber’s campfire.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 11, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
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The Chief is worried he might lose his trolling pot 'o gold.
What will you do then?
:-)
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redrocker
climber
NV
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Dec 11, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 11, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
Does the inherent partisan nature of the topic simply beg people to fall into name calling and personal attacks?
Yes.
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 11, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
(which is the worst of the forum from many people's point of view, mine included).
Mine included as well.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 12, 2014 - 12:28am PT
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it's just that this is who we are. not a crowd known
for coloring in little boxes. regrettable-embraceable us.
we've been wearing down the wardens since before fences.
may we continue to range widely, with a tender regard for context,
that we post in a combustible, shared world not of our own making.
so like, decorum up the place already
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 12:47am PT
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As per the original question posted:
Yesterday.
Tomorrow, even more so.
Don't change anything. People must voluntarily relinquish that desire to belittle their fellow humans.
It's not your fault, but it is your problem if you have a business that supports more than just your whims.
I'm not sure I would want to be in your shoes right now as regards this forum. no matter what you do or not do is bound to diss someone in this often unruly crowd.
Good luck.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:08am PT
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"right now- 16 of the front page 30 topics are OT."
Ron's post earlier
It's now 14 of 30. But what is off topic? It's different for each of us. That should be readily apparent.
I don't care what the front page looks like, particularly. I know where to find the new threads which I have missed after I've been gone a spell; and it's the same with the ones to which I mostly post.
Political threads, shooting threads, those which turn into hate fests, I've learned not to accept them into my upper room, my safe mind, where "I" dwell. Peace of mind is easy if you keep out the noise and the stink.
I see no need to go to a second tab, either, as Vegas Climber suggests, and others in the past, as well. But do what you gotta do, CMac.
I've not seen another post from you commenting on all the commentary, and I don't expect to see one.
CMac is the master troll.
Who else's OT topic could get such front page attention in so short a span of time?
And you left out a question mark in the last question, Chris, which may have been Freudian, because a slight restructuring of the sentence/question makes it a statement of fact, thus:
Does...the inherent partisan nature of the topic simply beg[s] people to fall into name calling and personal attacks (which is the worst of the forum from many people's point of view, mine included).
Answer, just for the record:
It's a no-brainer and obvious to the most n00b visitor after a few sessions on the board. It's why they are labeled "politards" when posters post to those threads, and why they are labeled "gun nuts" when posters post to gun threads or related topics. Etc.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 12, 2014 - 03:44am PT
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Do to the current extreme inflammatory danger, no climbers campfires are allowed.
There will be a sanctioned book burning tonight.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:13am PT
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--edit-- in true ST style I have not readanyof the preceeding posts!!!!11
If there were a vote...
I would vote for a daily post-limit.
The worst OT offenders post continually.
I would also vote for one user account per person.
The user can choose to be an actual named person or a nickname, but they will have one ST account.
Sure, it'd be easy to get around new rules like these, but the offenders would be violating the user agreement and subject to getting deleted.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:53am PT
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Keep the bar room style of post anything here, but make one change.
The change I suggest is to give the O[off]T[topic] threads [deciding what is OT is a problem in it's self] less cue priority.
All on topic threads will be moved to the of the top of the cue after each new post.
All off topic threads will get position 5 on the second page [or some other number[ some random number between 5 & 12]] when a new post is made and force the previous nearest off topic post to be more than 5 posts below the newest.
This priority cueing will clean up the front page and others pages to look more on topic.
Priority posting deserves a try. It is a bookeepping scheme for deception. Priority posting will make off topic threads harder to start since they are not noticed as easily.
Chris will have final say in what is Off Topic.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:06am PT
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Civility and decorum
Would enhance our Taco forum
If we only used our brains...
OZ is not OT,
it's a climb in Tuolumne.
--Book of the Dun Crow
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:41am PT
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Have two views or tabs, one climbing and OT. A lot of really good climbing content disappears from the front page too quickly and then it gets lost.
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:16am PT
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Out of 132 posts, 37 posts were from peeps that had already posted! Those 37 additional posts were from 22 posters! You can barely be heard over all the yelling at the campfire from the same posters.
Bob Pinckney
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:52am PT
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Who cares I am going climbing at the warmest Wyoming climbing destination tomorrow. DT
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:53am PT
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OT from the OP, but why isn't that chick in DMT's post wearing a helmet?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:32am PT
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Mike M,
if so I will see you at the Red Grotto Wall in Guernsey State Park. Temp Sat = 59F. It is likely to be warmer.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:34am PT
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Dave Kos,
okay Let's have Priority Queuing.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:56am PT
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The OT threads and the nasty repartee DO add a substantial amount of click-throughs for the site. Which is good for advertising revenue.
I guess it is up to CMAC to decide what it is he wants the site to be like. Make the decision, make the announcement, and then hire a couple of people(or get reliable volunteers) who will follow through on THAT agenda.
I am still for a segregated on/off topic forum, though I do see the points others are making. Perhaps the OT tab would be placed IN the main Climbers Forum. So, navigation would be Supertopo.com>Forum>Off Topic>Thread du Jour, for those who want to read/post OT. One line for those who want to see only climbing threads, innocuous in appearance and easily enough ignored. And easy to find for the many(myself included) who ead and post in the OT's. It wouldn't reduce the traffic for ST, so important to revenue and index ranking. And nobody would really be able to complain about wading through the morass to find legitimate content.
I would also not mind seeing people who cannot seem to control the impulse to be an ass get booted. 1 form response warning, then 1 1-day ban, then a 30 day ban, then perma ban.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 12, 2014 - 08:09am PT
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DMT, as a future inmate I appreciate your posts and sentiments.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 12, 2014 - 08:24am PT
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For whatever perceived faults, some might see, this is the best rockclimbing forum around, period.
I like your forum just the way it is.
Please don't change anything
But if your going to make changes think of this. Make people use real names, that way the haters can not hide behind fake identities, and sling poo without regard for their reputations.
Guy Keesee
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:32am PT
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A second vote for Dingus McGee's priority queuing proposal---best compromise idea by far. Keeps the wild west atmosphere some folks like while giving climbing-related stuff a chance to be seen before being jostled out of sight (I'm tempted to write out of site) by the OT argumentative threads.
But someone has to manage the priority assignments...there's the rub.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:45am PT
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Let freedom take its chances. This is such a low consequences environment that it's a perfect venue for the anarchy approach.
As our benevolent dictator you, Chris, can delete threads and commenters. As it should be. The collective has a voice and that should be enough. It is working.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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Chris, it is great to have an opportunity to share our thoughts on this topic. Thanks. I have read almost all the responses and it seems to me that the problem is not the topic as much as the content. So no, don't zap the OT threads or reorganize how it looks.
There are abusers, bullies and angry folk which is "the problem". That those are the ones that post the most. I don't know. The OT threads have a place and I can choose to read them or not. I have learned much from the OT threads.
Russ, Anders and Bill seem to have the same thought as me. The lay out is what makes ST what it is. It is some individuals that tend to ruin it. I think that if the bullies knew their posting rights were in jeopardy it would change how much nastiness was on our forum. Whether it is in the form of limiting how many post one can have a day or whether its getting banned from the site.
Its a tough job to keep it wild and free but also directed and contained. Good luck with what ever you decide Chris. ST is and incredible resource and I and many are grateful for its existence.
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CCT
Trad climber
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:21am PT
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I'd like to see a "report abuse" button attached to each post. I don't really care about the off-topic threads (I just don't click on them), but it bothers me when an on-topic thread is suddenly interrupted by a racist comment, or a naked person. Not cool, not family friendly.
This seems to be standard at most websites with comment sections.
Thanks for asking, Chris!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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What the hell is 'priority queuing'? Does that mean we gotta make a
reservation to talk sh!t?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:23am PT
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Does that mean we gotta make a
reservation to talk sh!t?
"Donner, party of 8, your time is ready"
Susan
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Dec 12, 2014 - 11:15am PT
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Haha! Good one, Susan.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 12, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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Right now there are 3 blatantly political threads on the first page. To me that's not much of a problem. So you have to click through to page 2 or 3 to see all the active climbing topics, not a big deal IMO.
I think It's more important for all concerned users to bump climbing topics with any response, than to try to keep very OT threads off.
It's the same dozen or so people in the poli threads constantly arguing with each other. Never changing minds. A weird exercise in futility that keeps them from monopolizing other threads, so I think it's fine.
I don't think anything should be done that adds any manual moderating. e.g. as soon as you add an OT tab who polices that? Not worth it IMO.
I read the posts in the past about installing the grease monkey script on your browser to hide certain posters. I never did it because I usually have the will power to skip over posters whose responses are a waste of my time or vitriolic. But that would be one addition to the site I would like to see. Instead of having to look at who the response was from and then skipping it I just wouldn't have to see responses from certain nasty or verbose posters. It would just make it a little easier to ignore them. And I think it may help with people complaining to the site owners.
There's only a few posters I would like to hide, but in some threads they contribute a significant percentage of all words posted.
P.S. if there was a report abuse button as suggested above, I'd recommend it would be like craigslist where after a certain number of people click it the post just disappears. Don't add any more work for the site owners.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 12, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Hire Scrubbing Bubbles to do the moderating
I trust his/her judgement.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 12, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
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Reilly...You're the Richard Sherman of Supertopo trash talking...Table for one is ready...
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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We are climbers. We're also citizens. We share certain values. Is politics really off-topic? Access issues are being decided by policy makers now and in the future. What about climate change? Maybe it won't have a significant effect on me, but what about future access?
It seems reasonable that we would want to discuss these things among our tribe. I agree with those who have said that the few right-wing nut cases are the problem. They discourage any type of informed, intelligent discussion. It's not the topic. We should be paying attention to topics that effect policy, environment and potential access.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
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"I agree with those who have said that the few right-wing nut cases are the problem."
They prefer to call themselves 'Independents'. Nobody can tell the difference, though.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Anders complains about:
Crackpots and extremists galore.
So I have to ask: You do understand this is a site for rock climbers?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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I don't give a shit!
I like it the way it is or has been for over ten years!!
..I remember when topics were standing on the front page for 3 to 5 days!!!
were just a bunch of rock climbers with one thing in common the Super taco!
I dig this place..
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
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KISS
Keep It Simple Stupid.
It's a wonder some of you figured out how to procreate.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Dec 12, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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This topic coming from the owner of the site who posts a video about a cat chasing a laser?
Really. Is that a relevant climbing topic.
The decline of this site has been long in the coming with multiple people leaving the site due to poor management. Not only from personal attacks, lack of actual climbing topics and up to date route information.
This has become a site of political BS of people who use to climb and sit around a " virtual campfire " spewing attacks and political non-sense.
If I want climbing info I go to Mountain Project.
News and political issues NPR or CNN.
Drama I go to supertopo.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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Yeah, this place should be run more like AOL
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
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The question seems to be about balancing a business and how relinquishing any control of the site to the users might affect the business. There has been discussion among friends as to how a community based, not for profit site, using buttons, might compare to one that is run as a business. This is not a knock on the moderators as it must be tricky to balance the business vs. public site question.
I wonder how important the site is to the business aspect of selling. I suspect it's fairly important. I think the moderators do a decent job given that they have to balance the needs of the business with that of the community and, ofcourse, it's there business and to allow the community any control over the site would be to potentially allow the community to influence the business which would be a bad business decision.
Tough one but the site is definitely going down hill from my perspective because it is difficult to have a good thread deleted containing some great information due to bad actors.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
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In reference to allowing politics Mike Fredritchs says,
It seems reasonable that we would want to discuss these things among our tribe.
Those topics of the politics that Freddie suggests to allow [full priority queuing]? could be recognized when the thread title tied such political proposals to climbing/access. In other words make your political thread very specific.
Under priority queuing the thread tile would most likely give significant information for Chris's choice about whether something of a political nature was pertinent to climbing considerations. And those threads not pertinent would soon end up at best on the second page.
No threads are deleted under this simple form of priority queuing and I would say it meets the kiss rule--keep it simple stupid.
In several instances Chris has already decided what goes on on this site and I can see no significant infringements to freedom of speech should he begin priority queuing.
\
The tactic of priority queuing is like asking you bar room customers that play hacky sack to do it in the back room and not disturb those that came to the front room lounge for dinner.
Why Are Republicans WRONG about EVERYTHING? How pertinent to what??
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
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RJ, that's high praise coming from you! I'm touched!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
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If it ever gets the point that SushiFest is OT please just delete my entire account. It's about the only reason I post any more anyway.
And you deleted one thread because it degenerated (apparently) into personal attacks. Yet hundreds more were not deleted. Me thinks it was less about the attacks and more about the original subject matter.
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Gal
Trad climber
going big air to fakie
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
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I hope that this does not become a sanitized monitored boring place . I would like it to stay as it is. That's my opinion on the matter.
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Brent Mattix
Trad climber
Roseville, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
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Chris,
Create the best of both worlds!
In reading through comments/reactions to your question, there is a split with many who enjoy the free spirit ("campfire") feel of the threads and many who want CLIMBING when the want CLIMBING. No matter what, I speculate that most don't like clutter (self-defined by each person), but currently there isn't a tool for a choice.
GIVE EVERYONE A CHOICE.
Set up programming:
1. Where Users can label the thread into pre-selected categories.
a. Drop down menu after the thread title for those interested in categorizing a thread (Climbing, politics, relationships, debates, off topics, etc.)
b. One user = one opportunity to categorize a thread.
c. Majority Rules in establishing the category for the thread.
2. Users can choose what categories they want visible for their account (like a Google Calendar.)
If the programming aspect isn't too complicated, this idea may serve as a evolution in discussion threads.
At any rate, I enjoy the Taco even if I don't post often. Cheers!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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naw... just greasemonkey the sh#t out of it:
though boring (hi Gal!) it sure does keep the idiot noise to zero
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John M
climber
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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And you deleted one thread because it degenerated (apparently) into personal attacks. Yet hundreds more were not deleted. Me thinks it was less about the attacks and more about the original subject matter.
I don't think so. My guess would be that Chris is flummoxed as to how to make this a place where more climbers want to post. He has a number of people telling him that they won't post here anymore. Or rarely. Yet he also has climbers saying that they love to be able to talk about anything. So he deleted a thread to try and wake a few people up and just see what would happen. Its all an experiment. Chris isn't all knowing. My understanding is this place barely covers the bills. So its not money. Its not power. Its just Chris wanting a cool place for climbers to talk about anything, but most especially about climbing, while not having to mess about with it too much.
And come on Nature. There is no way sushifest will ever not be climbing related. Even if you have to stop climbing.
Its the human lower ego that fooks things up. Pissy passive aggressive pukes. I'll tell you one thing though. I have learned a lot about my own passive aggressive tendencies from this forum. There are some smart folks here which have helped me a lot. But so far no one seems to have much of an answer for the lower ego. At least not one many would try and understand.
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John M
climber
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
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who are you scrubbing bubbles?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
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I don't think so. My guess would be that Chris is flummoxed as to how to make this a place where more climbers want to post.
maybe he could have figured that out a year and half ago when idiots like rong took the place over, flooded this place with his inane bullshit and drove so many away?
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Gal
Trad climber
going big air to fakie
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
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Hi Nature - it would be a tragedy if the sushi-fest schedule ever disappeared - mmmmm sushi!!!! So excited to see if i can make some of these 2015 fests!!!!!!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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I should add to that because I do know that so many love the event. Many more than I really ever hear from.
But truth be told I'm about to go out on a limb and change my life up and SushiFest might not fit (at least not here in the States - CostaRicaSushiFest, etc.). It's time for me to slip through the cracks of society and bail into this world and stir some real sh#t up. Me and the ReverendPagagMonkeyBoy have huge plans. Stay tuned....
John M - I don't see myself stopping climbing. I just have to climb in tropical environments. Boulder right now is not that. Crap.. I can't even fly my aerial photography platforms w/o my fingers getting cold while operating the sticks.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
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Doug you greasemonkey'd Squamish Photos and Stories?? Is it something i said??
;)
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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Naw... half the time I grease is simply because I realize I just never read the thread (I've seriously become disinterested in most of the content here). But full disclosure... i greased the crap out of the home page just for that screen cap. Maybe I'll see if I can undo that ONE ;)
Would it make you feel better if I greased Jims thread? hah!
I grease a lot of threads but only a handful of avatars.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
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Lol. I was going to say you did that for a laugh. You should read my thread, and not for my contributions but for the amazing stories provided by many legendary historical Squamish characters!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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I was following it a while back and read a lot of it. only greased it tonight ;)
I'm just not interested in that stuff right now. again, i'll figure out how to get it back. Was hoping someone would laugh at a stark ST front page.... besides me.
Oh.. and Gym says "hi"
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
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Oh I laughed! Lol. Thanks.
Sorry to hear about your hands and feet. I wish you well on your new adventure.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
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It is really peculiar to me that Chris McNamara started this thread but has not engaged us since then. Correct me if I am wrong please, but he hasn't posted since the OP, right? And I am very fond of CMac.
Chris.... this is not one of those "just add water" type of things. You own a forum. Tens of thousands or more of us are here. It is a giant cocktail party, as John Vawter has said in the past here. It won't keep shape if it simply is running feral. No matter how much you believe in climbers as a subset. ST staff has to participate in it if you want it to maintain form. Everybody needs an editor, shall we say. And you shouldn't have to be apologizing. In short, get on it. Put staff on it. Your baby won't be ugly, as Dingus Milktoast has said.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:14pm PT
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I still think the main problem here is lack of moderation. Meaning that someone needs to moderate the forum besides coming in every once in a while and throwing people and their posts off the taco.
More to the point: Moderation features are built into just about every singe forum software that exists. Go and check out WordPress and you will see that this problem has been dealt with for a very long time.
For example: You can also hand out moderator accounts to those that hang out here on a regular basis. You don't have to give them the power to delete posts. But, you can give them enough power to have the posts put on hold and sent to someone who can make a decision.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
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"who are you scrubbing bubbles?"
Who cares. What matters around here is what you say, and how you say it.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
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My two cents.
I agree 100% with Russ W, The Larry, Fritz, Jim B and Graniteclimber.
However, I wonder if it is too little too late though. Damage has been done. Is it recoverable? I don't know.
(I actually could not remember my password when signing on to post this. It took three tries.)
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
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Trolled by CMac
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
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Pretty much the ultimate troll. Ouch!!!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
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I agree that moderation is essential if one wants to control the tone and content of what is posted. If you let people say anything and post anything, then sooner or later just about everything will show up. There are those who like that, and of course they tend to congregate and ultimately produce the kind of atmosphere that excites them.
Behind the idea of moderation is the fact that the owners of the site have a sense of what the place should be and how people on the site should interact, a sense of identity. Whatever CMac's personal feelings may be, the site itself is left almost in free-fall, with no guidance except for the occasional after-the-fact response to something deemed outrageous.
To see an almost polar opposite approach that works very well, look at the posting guidelines for UKClimbing.com, http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/guidelines.html. Of course, that is a fully categorized site, but it gets a lot of traffic and has a vast amount of climbing-related discussion going on.
The UKC guidelines go on and on and would eliminate all kinds of topics and activities that are common on this site. Indeed, they specifically address certain types of activity that is fairly common here. My point is not about the content of the UKC guidelines however. It is that they know what they want their identity to be (and they what it should not be). They've obviously been around the block and know quite specifically what they'd rather not see. They aren't polling the users. They aren't posting notes saying golly-gee folks, we'd really like it if cut this or that crap out. They're saying, this is who we are, this is what we believe, and if you want to participate, here are the parameters delineating what is acceptable. My feeling is that if CMac isn't able to do that, Supertopo will remain feral, to use Peter's term, with all the potential that the term implies.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
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He gets to choose what content, who gets the whack, what is appropriate and what is not.
CMac doesn't need to engage - he rarely has in the history of this forum.
He is simply trying to get a feel for what people think about the direction of the forum.
Showing concern, as any good Overlord should do...
;-)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Crimpie's in da house, BEHAVE!!!!!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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My gut feeling is Crimpie is right and it may be too late?
Posting a new relevant topic on here takes a lot of energy, time and desire most of all. I think the desire is gone for many of the traditional contributors. Is it all down hill from here? Appears that way.
C'est la vie MFers
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 12, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
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I hope not Guido..
But we have lost quite a few of the best
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 12, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
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^^ Ooooh, Mr. Anonymous Avatar. Your opinion is soooooo valued here, because you are such a real and highly regarded member of the climbing community.
Now, contrast the anonymous [mostly worthless] person above, with John Eleazarian's excellent editorial below.
It takes balls to stand behind your identity. Any coward can hide behind a anonymous or fake avatar, and such posters are for the most part inconsequential clutter.
I can't help but think that if members of the forum were somehow required to stand behind their identity, that this would be a better place. But how to achieve this? Thoughts?
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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Based on past experience, I'll enjoy this site whatever CMac decides. To answer the question he posed, though, I think controversy is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for unsuitability. Neither is off- versus on-topic. We've had plenty of climbing-related threads degenerate into insult-fests, too.
For me, there are two separate areas that detract from any site. First are threads that, by their title and content, tell certain people they aren't full-fledged members of the discussion. For example, if I were a woman, the presence of "boob threads" would tell me that I'm an outsider, because no one would knowingly degrade an "insider" that way. I applaud ST management for getting rid of those threads.
Getting rid of the insult-fests, however, strikes me as a much more difficult issue. I have a pretty thick skin, so insults won't stop me from stating my opinion, but I sure tire of reading through unimaginative serial posts that resemble a cross between the Abuse and Argument departments in Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" skit. To me, that poses a much more difficult problem because a lot of useful content gets discarded.
I know some posters are more prone to gratuitous insults than others, but I can't think of many whose posts are so devoid of content that I would say "good riddance" if they were exiled. Forgive me, but I view posts rather like the SCOTUS views pornography - they need to be devoid of redeeming content, not merely light on it.
I do like the idea of queue prioritization. Perhaps we can also use our moral suasion to stop the posting of permutations of thread titles. Of late, those permutations have pushed more substantive topics off the front pages than any political content, but I admit to being a politard, so maybe I'm viewing this with blinders.
In any case, I am exceedingly grateful to CMac and ST for the existence and maintenance of this site. For all the noise, there's still an awful lot of signal.
John
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
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Heck, i think eveyone should have to show ID at the door.
maybe even provide a credit card #. For the possibility of being fined for personal slander?
atleast a SSN#.
Who knows, maybe an Alien or a Chinese girl is posing as Bridwell?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
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Too late? I don't think so. If CMac genuinely wants to change the site ambiance, which as I've said above would require (1) a clear set of written posting guidelines and (2) a determination to moderate in a way that makes those guidelines stick, then I think change would be relatively easy. There are loads of moderated sites on the internet that thrive under such circumstances, including some climbing sites, so the claim that such an approach would destroy this site is nonsense.
It would change it of course but that would be the point, right? Perhaps there are some folks who, for example, discover that they really aren't interested in conversing if, let's say, they have to be civil about their disagreements. They would be lost, but there would be gains of people who might now be put off by the acrimony. I'd guess the place would be more like what CMac has in mind, and I personally don't equate vitality with rudeness and profanity, so it seems plausible that things would go on in many ways as before.
To emphasize the fork in the road, shut down the climber's forum for a short period so that all you see if you click on that tab is the posting guidelines, then open it up again and make sure folks understand you mean business.
Personally, I simply don't participate in the contentious OT SuperTopo threads, because as I've said before, I already learned from rec.climbing what kind of person I do not want to be. And it is certainly discouraging to see good climbing content disappear in a flash under the weight of things that can (and certainly should) be debated elsewhere; I can't see why anyone needs Supertopo for those discussions. So I find myself wandering off to other places, but always checking back to see if anyone has momentarily come to their senses over here, and indeed they always do, and when that happens the place has and will continue to be worth a visit, changed or not.
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thebravecowboy
climber
walking, resin-stained, towards the goal
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
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forum goals? you mean we're stuck on this boat together? s'pose I'll stop carving toothpicks then.
Blue, you're killin' me.
EDIT: Are we seriously talking about AMBIANCE here? Really? Like some potted ferns with fake soil and a some nice decoupage with Laurence Welk on the PA would change things? Folks post photos of feces (faecae?) here with regularity. Is there a spray for my mind to make it go away?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
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scrubbing bubbles with the Canadian Assassin slam. wheeeeeee!
Where's Ted?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
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did they have SSN# when The Bird was born???
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jonnyrig
climber
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Dec 12, 2014 - 11:26pm PT
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Do you think change will bring back those who've left? You know, the ones whose content you miss? The ones who, when they left, it was a shame?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 12, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
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Ya! Maybe Hillrat will come back.. ;)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:27am PT
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you got me ... roped me in ..
..Pate Thank you
I too am
All In
two to get through.
One each gender and that is the curve the two paths are the same and so different.
and if more moderation comes will oregano come then too???what auto correct!!
See it is a good outlet for stupid but if all that is washed out, then the sum of the whole will suffer.((my auto correct is fighting back. what rgld,said...))
do I have to pass the English language ? Is there a test that all will take? we should be glad , be careful what you wish for!! who is this fish and should we be worried or just a bit more respectful??
I was not going to say that crazy is good and should stay but...
Crazy can be funny and the force of the Topo is it's Mass....keep it all going chaos as usual !!
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:46am PT
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Has no one told Chris about the marmot?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:30am PT
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This is revealing. How many STers are morons still wanting to play
pat-a-cake as adults?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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All ST needs is a disclaimer-CAREFUL WHERE YOU STEP!
So Typical of this forum. But then this is the INTURDNET.
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10b4me
climber
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:39am PT
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It's a sad day when Crimpergirl hasn't posted in so long that she forgets her password :-).
Seriously though, it seems to me that when you had climbers(Kate, Melissa, Mike Ousley, I.e.)who were posting climbing content decide the site is no longer climbing oriented, the decline started.
In regards to political, and religious threads, they should have been deleted by RJ, asap.
People talk about the "campfire". Most climbing campfires that I have set around, well. . . . .the topic has been climbing.
I have long been in favor of a forum subdivided into on, and off topic threads.
Just my .02
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:43am PT
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AFter watching this thread evolve, a couple of things stand out as comment-worthy.
First, there have been a lot of complaints about how so many valuable contributors have been driven away by the direction the forum has taken. On this, I call bullsh#t. From the day after this forum launched, there have been departures. Go back and pick whatever Golden Age Of Supertopo you like, and there'll be some climbing hero who decided not to stick around. Do you really think that by magically getting rid of everything you don't like, you could bring all your heroes back?
Sure, plenty of folks, and not just your heroes, have participated for a while, then left. Some have left in a huff, some have left in disgust, and some have left on the toe of Chris Mac's boot.
But for every one who has left, at least one new and equally valuable contributor has joined. Change is good. And not only good, it's necessary to keep the forum from death by stagnation.
And second, the following post from Mighty Hiker (upthread) epitomizes a real problem. He said:
If all the conspiracy theory, extreme right wing, and global warming denier type posters and threads disappeared, no one would miss them.
Conveniently ignoring the fact that his own non-stop spew of extreme left wing posting was just as annoying to many people as their extreme right wing posting was to him.
That attitude -- only posts and threads reflecting MY view of life should be allowed -- is just totalitarianism on an internet forum scale. I don't like threads turning into insult fests, but I'd far rather have a few insult fests than see Supertopo turn into an endless stream of sanctimonious ball-cupping.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:45am PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Funny thing is, from all reports, Rick is actually a really nice guy. He just plays an ASSHOLE here on the internet...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:45am PT
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What I would like to know is WHY is it so important to be viewed or perceived as an ASSHOLE???...
Locker,
Some of these azzholes, if they are good mentors will achieve the coveted designation of "Guardian A-hole". I know one, George Hadland.
Every time a horn is honked in incessant anger, an a-hole gets their wings.
P.S. Locker, it is a wonderful life!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:49am PT
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^^^^^^ One of the best posts in the thread by Ghost ^^^^^^
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 13, 2014 - 09:02am PT
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^^^
Indeed. Great post, Mr. Ghost.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 13, 2014 - 09:25am PT
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^^^^^^ One of the best posts in the thread by Ghost ^^^^^^
^^^
Indeed. Great post, Mr. Ghost.
Hey! What part of "No Ball Cupping" don't you guys understand?
Are you ill today Werner? What's wrong with you and El Cap? C'mon, dudes, show some balls. Disagree with me. Insult me. Turn this into a normal ST thread.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Dec 13, 2014 - 09:35am PT
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Haha. No such luck, Ghostly One. Folk agree or not at their own whim. As for those that have left, several lurk, as if to say that they would return if the forum returned to its own or closer to its original course. We'll see what we see, I suppose.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 09:40am PT
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Ghost, you phony equanimous hoser wetback, quit coming it the voice of reason!
If we wanted to reason we'd be down at the local Church of Scientology, or maybe the
West Palm Beach Tim Hortons with the rest of yer ilk.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 13, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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perhaps a better title for this thread would be "has supertopo jumped the shark?"
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 13, 2014 - 10:05am PT
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"Hey! What part of "No Ball Cupping" don't you guys understand?"
"I'll cup your balls ghost!"
Glad to see you guys have taken over Anita's bailiwick. She was told recently she needed to get a new schtick, which was devastating to her. ;)
Cup on, dudes!
"First, there have been a lot of complaints about how so many valuable contributors have been driven away by the direction the forum has taken. On this, I call bullsh#t. From the day after this forum launched, there have been departures. Go back and pick whatever Golden Age Of Supertopo you like, and there'll be some climbing hero who decided not to stick around. Do you really think that by magically getting rid of everything you don't like, you could bring all your heroes back?"
The forum hasn't changed directions at all - from the very beginning, it has been mostly a free for all. Back at inception, users weren't even required to provide an email address, they just posted. People changed their user names randomly and frequently. So it's always been unmoderated.
And McTopo hasn't jumped the shark. It's pretty much the same shitshow it's always been.
The question is - if the forum becomes more moderated, will it bring back people who were originally attracted by the climbing content, but driven away by the lack of moderation? I would like to think so. I would sure like to see more climbing content, from real climbers with real identities.
Chris - please split up the forum - "climbing stuff" and "not climbing stuff"
Cheers,
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 13, 2014 - 10:43am PT
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Were I thirty years old and enraptured with climbing I might find the UKClimbing forum design attractive. But now I am an old man and cringe at what seems to be severe regimentation on that site. ST on the other hand seems vibrant and appealing, even with the nastiness that crops up from time to time. There is something about "climbing content" that seems technical and dry and devoid of humor. Whereas some of the OT threads show great wit and are more appealing than another discussion on sport climbing vs traditional climbing, or where it is proper to place a single bolt on a climb that has been done heroically with no bolts. So I would prefer that no queuing be attempted that would relegate a humorous dialogue on the nature of mind to the second or third page, replaced on page one by yet another description of an El Cap repeat.
But pay no attention to the old man behind the curtain.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 13, 2014 - 10:50am PT
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Don't pay attention to the old man behind the curtain...? But what if he's doing one fingered pull ups or some other bannable stunt...?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 13, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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by yet another description of an El Cap repeat
Even speed records are only as good as the characters putting them up.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Dec 13, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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I tried to post to this thread yesterday but deleted my post because it was reactionary.
Trying to think about it rationally I have Two beefs:
1.
Part of The problem for me is that it's hard to have any respect for an anonymous avatar that is highly opinionated & has no reason to be accountable for what they say.
They also have no reason to show or try and earn/share respect with other users.
There is a lot of posts that come from these types these days.
I'm having a hard time convincing myself it's not a massive energy sink associating myself with these types in any way, especially a website that I thought I was going to for great climbing content. Which can often feel like picking flyshit out of pepper, then watching it fall back in the shaker.
There is also a lot of anonymous avatars here who do have human qualities & share great content that are a valuable assett to this forum, I also understand why ppl would want to stay anonymous for their various reasons.
But when ppl are anonymous because they are a coward who doesn't want to stand behind their words It makes it really hard to even think of these users as real people, let alone fellow climbers. This is not possible at a real campfire. It cracks me up to see these types post opinions to this thread like anyone cares about their superficial, shallow contributions that build up and cause this collective detriment here. They make me not want to visit this site and have me almost convinced that it is not worth it putting time and energy into creating new climbing threads or TRs.
2.
A separate column /tab for climbing would actually encourage more posting and discussion on OT threads IMO, I know that I would post to them more if I knew I wasn't ruining climbing content by doing so.
I'd also be more psyched on posting and sharing new climbing content knowing it was not going to get sucked into a black hole.
Do whatever you want Chris, or just keep trolling and acting like you care and don't give a f*#k at the same time. It's really making a difference, for better or worse is the question.
Oh look, it stopped raining.
Edit-
There is a large group of ppl here who do what they can to keep the climbing content going, they put a lot of time and effort into it. I really appreciate it and try to keep climbing threads around, but it's easy for that stuff to waste away when compared to some news link someone thought was worth starting a thread over that took zero thought and time, that will subsequently garner 1000+ posts. That's a lot of traffic compared to the average TR that someone took hours/days/weeks/months of their life to dream/climb/travel/share with us which sees anywhere from 3-50 posts. Climbing content does not stand a chance to fully develop as a majority here as long as there are daily hot topic news threads that will always flare up and cause controversy. No chance.
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10b4me
climber
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Dec 13, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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I agree with Crimpie and 10b4me. Miss your posts, you two.
thanks, Sully.
I've mentioned several times in the past the decline of ST. I, along with several others(and you know who you are) were here in the beginning. What attracted me, and I thought the others was a new site where there was climbing content.
Now it seems that because of the political, and religious threads, non climbers searching for those topics would plug those words into search engines, and lo and behold they came to ST. They then had a place espouse their views without much backlash, or so they thought.
You see, on the political, and religious forums where they posted before, more than likely they had their ass handed to them. So they left with their tails between their legs, but then found ST.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Dec 13, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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I posted regularly to ST from about 2006 - 12, and like to think I contributed something to this wacky community. I gradually phased out posting, particularly to non-climbing threads, and essentially stopped two years ago. For several reasons:
 Other priorities, such as work, family, climbing and exercise, and projects.
Decreasing lack of interest, particularly as friends drifted away.
Other and more constructive ways to interact with those I want to interact with.
The dozen or so trolls, extremists, and whackjobs, who substantially debase the forum.
Offensive behaviour by some posters toward me personally, here and elsewhere.
Then there was the notorious "boobs" thread, which although it began as a witty (and accurate) take on misogynist behaviour here (by a female), soon degenerated into pornography, and eventually kiddie porn. That is, something that is loathsome, (probably) criminal, and contrary to forum policy - even if such foulness can readily be found elsewhere on the internet. That was compounded by the failure of the forum's owners to promptly address the problem. I did not want to be associated in any way with a forum that permits such, even if inadvertently.
As for ghost's joke about my being a left-winger... Well, maybe by the extreme standards of a few in the USA. By Canadian standards I'm a freethinking centrist - moderately to the left in terms of social and environmental policy, moderately to the right in terms of fiscal responsibility. As I in any case chose some time ago to stop wasting time interacting with conspiracy theorists, gun nuts, creationists, global warming deniers, far right wingers, and other loonies and whackjobs, it's long since moot. I agree that there are many reasonable conservatives here - John E, for example - and we interact constructively both online and in person, which speaks for itself.
There are undoubtedly inappropriate threads on ST. The real problem is inappropriate posts, and posters. Some simply can't play nice, and either need a time out, or to be suspended or banned. I continue to like the idea of limiting the number of posts/poster/day. That is, original posts - even if a post is later deleted, it should count toward the total. And simply ejecting those who post only nonsense, pour encourager les autres as Napoleon said, has its merits. They have every right to free speech - somewhere else.
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Brian
climber
California
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Dec 13, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
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I'd love to see any and all of the following:
1. Require posting under real names, which I wager would immediately eliminate or at least curtail 90+% of the truly offensive and intentionally inflammatory stuff.
2. Some sort of division of forum into climbing and OT threads, whether that is through a tab or a filter.
3. Moderating that bans folks who are here only to troll. Not folks who disagree with me. Not folks who occasionally post OT stuff. Just folks who are here only to be an as#@&%e, generally in a way they would never be in a face-to-face encounter (hence #1 above). I am fully aware that this raises the insoluble issue of "who is an as#@&%e?" However, I, for one, am 100% fully willing to run the risk of moderation if we can eliminate the dozen or so worst offenders.
So many folks use the silly and inappropriate "campfire" metaphor for what happens here. But while it is true we talk about more than climbing around actual campfire, and that's great, it is also true that a substantial portion of what clogs up the forum on Supertopo would never happen at a real campfire because:
(a) I'm guessing that most of the as#@&%es on the forum are not really such as#@&%es in person.
(b) If such an as#@&%e did show up at a campfire, lots of us would simply ask the guy to leave.
And, finally, (c) at least some of the asinine behavior here would actually lead to fisticuffs if it happened around a real campfire.
Still, in the end, my opinion is one that Chris should not weigh too heavily in terms of effect, because I've gone from looking at Supertopo fairly regularly to almost never looking at it. I've posted, what, 20 items in 2014? There are gems on this site to be sure, but they are increasingly embedded in a pile of manure. It's a bummer because there is some great content here, and some great people.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
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If you can't be this
then try this.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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Chris keep it like it is please, I have a learned a lot from some of the OT threads,, even those I have started.
I haven't read the entire thread, I am run down emotionally, with Jennie in a nursing home since November 11, not wanting to see me (DEMENTIA SUCKS), we were engaged on a beautiful sunny day (sometimes rare in Ireland) Sept 27, 2007, overlooking the Blasket Islands, Co Kerry. Now she doesn't want to know me. 63 is too young to be in a nursing home for the rest of her life, Her lifelong best friend Eileeen agrees with me.
Now she does no want to know me. Hopefully that will change. I will play it out, the ball is in her court, not mine, not the social worker's, not the doctors, but a lovely Irish woman name Jennie.
I like the forum, and for the first few years I would engage in OT debate, sometimes I would post stupid comments. But I learned. I still think it is the best climbing forum around (with all due respect to SummitPost, Mountain Project, Climbing.ie, UK climbing, and most other climbing forums, for the matter, most other any kind of forums).
So in keeping with the spirit of the Taco Stand , some limited views of climbing.
My email to ChrisMac today…
Howdy Chris
I start threads with OT and what I hope is an indicative thread head. If people are interested they will click on, if not just ignore.
Believe me, I would love to start more climbing-related threads, it just is these past few years in Ireland have been difficult, being full-time primary carer for my Irish partner Jennie.
Since her illness struck over four years ago I have had to give up a planned ice climbing trip to Ben Nevis, and had to nix both my Day Skipper course (Irish Sailing Association) and a scuba course.
But on the political and other non-climbing threads of recent years, I tend not to post.
Thanks for Supertopo Chris, I have bought some of your guides. I should have stayed back home in California, instead of moving to Ireland 19 years ago. All well, c'est la vie.
An elderly Wexford gent (where we live now, Ballytrent, a minute's walk from the Celtic Sea, great for the kayak and some good beach boulders about 20 minutes up the beach), I said to him…
"Phil, I have made a lot of mistakes in my life."
"Patrick, a man who says he has never made a mistake, is a man who has not made anything."
Cheers and best wishes Chris
Patrick
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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Thanks for the voice of reason John Gill. I completely agree with you. I have no interest in another trip report on the third pillar of mt Dana. The climate change thread on the other hand has at times been fascinating. Same with the mind thread.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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For the most part, I really don't care much if someone posts using a real name or an avatar. What matters to me is what someone has to say, and how they say it.
I have sincere doubts that a 'real name' policy (by itself) is going to do much to curb some of the bullshit that goes on at ST. Amongst my fellow polititards, there are two in particular who use their real names, are generally in a similar ideologic camp, and yet they are as diametrically different in their communication styles as anyone could find here at ST- one is incredibly articulate & respectful...the other is one of most regular sources of ST vitriole & hatred. Likewise, one can find the same paradoxes amongst avatar-users.
There are lots of avatar-users here of which I have no idea what their real identity is- in many cases, I would have never known who they were unless someone else had replied in a thread using their real name. (At least two examples are on this page & the last.) My respect for these people existed before I happened to learn who they were- they had demonstrated their respect for others & articulation of ideas while using what some would define as the use of a 'cowardly' avatar.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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Please guys, this thread IMO is turning into what ChrisMac was trying to point out.
Let's keep it civil. Don't we all have enough on our hands (I certainly do) in keeping our heads above water.
I like the forum the way it is.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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Please guys, this thread IMO is turning into what ChrisMac was trying to point out.
Maybe that was his point.
Edit: TOO SOON LOCKER!!!!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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Locker - The Chief, and anyone else who needs to read this again:
(Please note number 2 below.)
Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 4, 2014 - 10:29am PT
We recently deleted the Fergusson thread for a few reasons:
1) The thread had very little to do with mission of the SuperTopo forum which is intended to be a "friendly and informative resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations.”
2) The thread was devolving into personal attacks. While we constantly wrestle with our comfort of having a climbing forum be occasionally overrun with heated political debate, we are very clear that we never want the forum to become a platform for personal attacks. Please help us to keep personal attacks off the forum by emailing me.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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Delete all threads that don't revolve around adventure, climbing, the alpine environment and pursuits linked too it.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 13, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong?
there is only one answer, which 99% of posters will be in agreement with:
there are certain individuals who treat this board as their own personal messaging service and engage in the same circular discussions with the same foes virtually ad infinitum. because of the simplicity of this board, where the most recent post goes to the top, this type of behaviour is intrinsically problematic to the 99% of people who are here to be exposed to fresh perspectives, to hear new voices, new thoughts, new stories, etc.
ironically, most of the time these individuals either post under their own name or don't try to hide their real identity. and so the above has nothing to do with anonymity, but has still been a perennial issue for as long as i've been here. and i'm sure it probably goes back to the advent of the board whether it was Aleister Crowley, Dr. F, LEB, Fattrad, or their current manifestations who everyone knows, but i won't name.
again the issue with any of these individuals isn't what they post, it's how much they post. if they could just put a limiter on it, there would be no issue. even the most obvious trolls and rabble rousers can be quite funny and even informative sometimes.
but if someone needs to average 20 or even 10 posts a day to get their points across, they should probably be looking into some english or logic classes. or at least doing a little more pm'ing...
that's why while every proposed solution upthread, with the exception of Big Mike's choose your own home page route, is going to have significant pros and cons, the one change that has no down side to the board [that i can see] is to put a post limit per person per day [including deletions]... i became convinced of this after messing around with some numbers a couple years ago
the one downside for the management would be that it would likely cause some to create more avatars... but this should be no more difficult to deal with than the current possibility of someone who has been banned creating a new fake id...
the alternative to making some type of change is to just continue to have a thread like this on average of about once every three months... /s
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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It's pretty easy People.
Choose an active state of posting over a reactive one...
and you are good to go!
Disclaimer: This may not make any sense to people with an 8th grade mentality or less regarding their "fun" on the internet.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:38am PT
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Be part of the problem.
7 words
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:18am PT
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Embrace politics, don't fear it. It effects climbing more than you know...
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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Eliminate the racist & you will end most of the problems.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:08am PT
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^^^
Boy, ain't that the truth.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 14, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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My (other) two cents:
The forum is good enough as it is.
Although the original question was how to limit name-calling and personal attacks, there have been a lot of suggestions on what to do about OT pushing climbing off the front page. I believe that we as users can
go to previous pages
comment or bump climbing content
ignore OT threads
read TRs
greasemonkey
other stuff
We can individually and collectively improve SuperTopo with what is already available.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 14, 2014 - 09:27am PT
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Dingus pointed out the Shangri La Trip Report and I gotta say, I love the opening quote of the TR:
“We climbers are tribal. It sounds trite, but it is true. The brotherhood of the rope is real. It spans the globe, cultures, bitter national rivalries, languages. Climbers from the world over gather around a fire and by virtue of common experience and shared passion, they know they sit with brother and sister.” –DMT
I thought it appropriate somehow.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Dec 14, 2014 - 10:29am PT
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the riff-raff and off topic
bickering and other hoopla
well round this place,
in my opinion.
kinda like hardship complements
an ascent.
varying sensations adorn
visitors here,
depending on the collective
mood of our tribe.
don't take away
the frowns,
they are a necessary part
of this emotional circus.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 11:53am PT
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More Norwegian, less Ron.
Problem solved.
Edit:
Case in point:
Many of you live for the OT stuff like crankster
I don't post OT topics, simple as that.
The guy who posts the most OT threads on the forum, many of them extremely inflammatory and reflective of his membership in an armed militia, acts surprised and victimized that he's attacked in those threads.
General rule...don't post trolling, partisan threads. It's possible to have a civil conversation if you start with a civil topic. i think 99% of forum members would comply.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dec 14, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Bingo-Two Red cards to start off with!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 14, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
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Do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo?
On the surface, the question is a simple Yes or No question.
But if you delve into the ifs, whys, and buts, you get into a deeper question and it becomes:
"What would YOU do to make this more like the forum YOU want it to be???"...
Few answered with just Yes or No, and most delved deeper into the question.
From reading many of your posts, Locker, you certainly delved deeply.
Whether or not you were addressing the question, however, remains uncertain.
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Dec 14, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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I say get rid of the divisive, off topic political stuff. This is not the place for those rants.
A lot of worthwhile people have left the taco because of the vitriol and off topic nonsense.
I think you should use your power for good C Mac!
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Dec 14, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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You could divide the forum page into two halves
top = climbing
bottom = OT
(user should be able to set climbing/OT ratio as input to php)
'
gets my vote for best suggestion
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 14, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
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@Locker >>
Hahahahahahahaha ....
Thanks for the laugh!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 14, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
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The article linked by Ed is both interesting and apropos. The author's last paragraph is
In the meantime, the problem seems to grow only more urgent. There’s a ton of ugly vitriol being poured into social media. We need to keep the Internet free and open, but we also need it to be a civilized, hospitable place where all people can be comfortable and safe. Creative solutions are vital.
There you have it in a nutshell: it would be nice to have a civilized, hospitable place where all people can be comfortable...
More and more places are starting to try to do something to at least head in that direction, apparently swimming against a dark current of the worst instincts of humanity, brought out by either the anonymity, distance, or both that are part of the internet paradigm. Another aspect of this is the normalization of vitriol---acceptance in the form, "what did you expect, its the internet," and desensitization of everyone to abrasive interactions.
It has been pointed out that people come and leave all the time. But beyond this claim of equilibrium, which is certainly not always true---sites do become moribund---is the question of what types of people are leaving and what types are arriving.
I think a site increasing devoted to nasty contention will, over time, drive out those looking for "a civilized, hospitable place where all people can be comfortable" and draw in those who enjoy and are stimulated by the confrontations. And so the site survives but its nature evolves. As that process goes on, consulting "the community" about what it wants misses the fact that social effects are shaping who responds before the questions are even asked.
Which is why, as I have now said at least twice before, I think CMac has to decide what type of place HE wants this to be and then start taking steps to make it that way, if he in fact cares enough to do anything at all.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 14, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
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I certainly do understand that eKat.
But my question is, who decides what topics are forum-worthy? A wonderful guitar thread doesn't attract many haters, but even the GoPro thread got its share of hate, and in just the first 20 posts!!
So, it might not be just the thread title, but the way the thread goes once the tribe takes hold of it.
When I started the Climate Change thread, little did I expect it to turn the way it did, and I did not start it to watch a frothy argument. But the thread has some amazing posts from some well-respected folks on the forum, and I would hate to see that type of interaction restricted on the forum.
I think it's a few bad apples, I tell ya! Yellow Cards, that's what I see as a good solution. But I'm just one voice here, and I'll visit this place no matter how it turns.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Dec 14, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
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OT topics are fine by me as long as they don't consistently push off the kind of content that is this site's raison d'etre. Unfortunately, that's exactly what they tend to do, too much of the time. Separating the page as mentioned above sounds like a reasonable solution.
Posting limits sound good, too. GawdFerbid that some of us might have to find something else to do all day...!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 14, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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I suspect for Chris some of the responses from some of these posts to his opening/original concerns about current ST posts makes him feel much like a woman feels on a date with male that ignores or misses all the subtle and even obvious hints she drops to suggest she does not want to continue such a course action.
Glean some clues boys -- read the body language -- Chris wants some changes on this show. The Wild West Show is not what he wants.
I am wondering how long Chris will let this male entourage drag his a*s around? Is there a co-dependency here?
Rather than cling to the exact past, what is the smallest change to produce the[your?] desired affect?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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Supertopo forum members all want a zoo to complete their sterile mindset.
No more wild animals.
Make them all sterile so they wont eat you anymore.
Supertopo cliche members can all visit each other in their nice safe sterile supertopo forum zoo from now on .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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I think it's a few bad apples, I tell ya! Yellow Cards, that's what I see as a good solution. But I'm just one voice here, and I'll visit this place no matter how it turns
I like these sentiments. Keep in mind the vitriol is not necessarily restricted to off-topic threads. And at what point heightened passions turn into vitriol may be a matter of personal tastes. Recall the thread about placing a single bolt on a spire in the SD Needles?
Watching the behavior of posters and warning, then removing them, may be the simplest effective strategy.
I find the mix of topics - like American culture in general - fascinating.
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Dec 14, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong? A lot...Specifically, do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo? I don't really care, except for loosing a lot of great posters from the past.
Campfire rule applies (for me at least):
Songs?
Photos?
Environment?
Trip Reports? cool beans.
Are you a Democrat?...I gotta take a leak.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 14, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
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Climbing is like golf - exciting for the actual participant but boring as hell to watch and even more boring to read about.
If this Forum was limited strictly to "climbing" it would be 300 pages of butt shots and droning texts about some gripper thumb jam on pitch 3.
Let's face it folks - some endeavors lend themselves to the Internet and some do not. Climbing falls into the latter category.
I never climbed to be some Master of Granite Stud Muffin. I started climbing because that's what the geeky techie future engineering graduate stoners did and they were the only the group of pimply faced teenies that would accept me.
We f*#ked around with elaborate knots and debated load values and Newtons but mostly we sat in the dirt and shot the sh#t about the events of the day all the while secretly hoping we would get laid before we were 25.
Not too different from this place.
Only difference I can see with ST is that most of the posters are 40 years older and still haven't gotten any.
Makes you bitter I suppose.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 14, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Supertopo forum members all want a zoo to complete their sterile mindset.
No more wild animals.
Make them all sterile so they wont eat you anymore.
Supertopo cliche members can all visit each other in their nice safe sterile supertopo forum zoo from now on .....
Well, first of all, there seems to be plenty of disagreement on this thread, so the first sentence is false.
The rest suggests that "sterility" is the opposite of profanity, nastiness, mean-spiritedness, misogyny, rage, and a host of other traits that surface in some of the posting here. I guess that is one view of human interaction, but hardly the only possible one, and not one I'd embrace. I do get that some folks prefer at least a dash of profanity, nastiness, mean-spiritedness, misogyny, and rage to season their interactions. I don't think its cool at all, but different strokes... I also get that once these things start, the social evolution effect means that they are likely to snowball.
John suggests there can be a fine line between passion and vitriol, but I'm not at all convinced of that. True, passionate people may become vitriolic. On the other hand, it is possible to argue forcefully for a position without resorting to the kind of ad hominem attacks that turn the discussion from the topic at hand to a festival of increasingly abusive name-calling. I know I argued long and hard in the Superpin bolting thread John mentions, but I don't think I made personal attacks on anyone participating, even when they were made on me. (Maybe I should read over that thread and see whether I retrospectively see my own behavior through rose-colored glasses. If I failed in that regard, I'm perfectly willing to yellow-card myself and promise to do better.)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
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It's just a stoopid sarcastic joke rgold, that's all.
Don't read into it any further then that ......
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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Nice one RickyD.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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You don't ask questions.
You don't ask questions.
No excuses.
No lies.
You have to trust Chris.
Will the Narrator try to shoot himself?
While others cry, | "all my posts are about a lonely person looking for some way to connect with other people.
But you get the yellow card' |...once they have children and become a father themselves, thus becoming controllers themselves in an endless cycle of patriarchal repression.
Does Chris want a clean front page or repression??
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
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Scrubbing Bubbles - over 1000 posts, and as I peruse your input (Since MAY 2014):
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Oz8-ND03KCQk
I see nothing that contributes to the forum in any meaningful way.
Zero trip reports.
Another juvenile hiding behind an avatar. Trolling, dissing and reacting seem to be your choices of input - nothing positive.
The best post you have made to date:
I've never been happy since the day my own umbilical cord was cut...
Just sad - get a life...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
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i come here
seeking shelter from the calm.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
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I too wish to acknowledge Ricky D's longest post, ever.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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A long time ago, MisterE encouraged me to stop lurking and start posting. In most cases, I haven't regretted entering this community. Personally, boob threads are so far off topic that they don't belong.
You know how when you go to a certain kind of bar and there's a bouncer there? There's a certain kind of customer who needs the container, the boundaries, that a bouncer is there to provide. This forum, via ChrisMac's post (you are awesome, Chris, love you!) seems to agree they don't want bouncers, they want to be the kind of place where people "bounce themselves.'
Except the people who need a bouncer aren't able to bounce themselves.
Generally, I am not the kind of chick who visits bars that have bouncers. I'm all "hippie" and peace-loving and just want a nice drink and some interesting conversation with cool people who share this passion I have for climbing. Sometimes, there are people here whom I idolize for their ability, and I know I am honored to be in their thread, in their presence. I am amazed that I can rub shoulders with them and learn from their wisdom.
And I think the majority here are just like me in personality, even if they climb way harder than my pitiful attempts.
But there are a few here who need a bouncer.
And, just like in a bar, if the bouncer doesn't pound down the testosterone-laden drunken
idiot who is ruining everyone else's good time, the crowd tends to vacate the premises.
Chris doesn't have the time/energy/interest in being the bouncer.
It's a quandary.
It's not about the OT threads, it's about the personalities.
Most of us handle ourselves with dignity and grace, even if we have occasional lapses. There's lots of tolerance here for occasional lapses. But the people who need a bouncer are not able to regulate themselves.
Seems like the best way of handling those people are to allow them limited access to the site, daily.
So, I vote for a daily posting limit, even though that will hamper my ability to conduct conversations via threads with my peeps I am having a beer with. (A gluten-free beer) :)
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
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At last and not on purpose - I have reached 1001 posts since, what 2006? I just decided to check tonight, and I have not been keeping track of the count.
Over the years, I've tried to keep my banter within the range of common C4 campfire or Deli rants and often related to our culture. I have ignored many uninteresting threads. Yet, thanks to Crowley, I've found a place where I can hang out with my old friends as if it were BITD. CMac,I bet you just need affirmation that your site is as good as it gets - AS IS.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
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Ah! T Hocking! At last a little humor here in the land of the serious!
WooHoo!
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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All this over the 3 or so idiots who can't control the quantity of their posting. First it was fatty, then rokjox, then Ron showed up. Polite requests to post less are ignored as this seems to be their sole social interaction.
Please stop making supertopo suck.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
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Please stop making supertopo suck.
Thanks, Atcha - short, yet succinct.
You always post well.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Dec 14, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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^^^but they can't stop themselve from sucking
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 14, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
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No offense to any of yas but the evolution of this thread is the exact reason CMAC should never let the inmates run the asylum.
Oh yeah. Personally, I don't know what I was thinking when I got involved, I usually stay out of the OT controversies.
Anyway, thanks for the wake-up call. AMF lads.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
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I like OT threads, and even when it comes to the evil ones I occasionally get sucked in.
But in creating OT threads, I have followed a couple simple rules.
I shoot for a topic that I hope many posters will be interested in participating in, and ones that stay away from politics and religion. In other words, threads that don't start out with an argument in their premise.
Thus I have settled on:
*Beautiful Decay (everyone seems to have a few photos of beat up, broken down, rusty stuff, right?)
*Show Me Your Genes (everyone likes to share pictures of their kids.)
*Show Me What You're Building (Almost everyone has created something not related to climbing that they have fun with, or are otherwise proud of.)
*The Coolest Cat (Not everyone is a cat fan, but same idea as Chiloe's dog thread)
Kind of polite and maybe even mundane, but at least they're begun with Play Nice as the basic idea.
So in my mind, Chris asked the wrong question in the Thread title. It's not how far away from climbing the topic is, but how to keep it civil that he seems to be after.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
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rgold.. I'm glad you posted. I appreciate your insights.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 15, 2014 - 03:44am PT
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Is the main purpose of climbing for some, to make yourself not be pathetic?
Well it's not working.
In a world of constant change where nothing changes.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:20am PT
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re: list of people to ban, who do not belong
Has my name been put on the list yet?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:30am PT
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This thread needs pictures.
It's just a stoopid sarcastic joke ...
I have to find a choss pile somewhere and put up a route.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:33am PT
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Houston, I think we have a problem ...
He just plays an ASSHOLE here on the internet...
Well. Someone's gotta do it.
Why some people think the world is a better place with asshats running around is beyond me. But there you go, I suppose it's human nature.
Yellow Cards, with a nice graphic next to their name/handle. If folks want to be asshats, let's brand them as such.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Dec 15, 2014 - 07:38am PT
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How long will it take to make a decision and implement it?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Dec 15, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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One tab for good humans and the other for bad humans.
Score people on the "pussy girly crankcases" meter or how many clif bars they eat or how many cliffs they've tried to successfully scale or wing suit off of or how many Jesuses they can fit in a sentence. Balance it according to your values.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Dec 15, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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Someone asked for pictures.
Susan
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 15, 2014 - 09:34am PT
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Whos^^^^under there.
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Bootymaster
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 15, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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A pulldown menu with three tab options:
1. Climbing related discussions.
2. OT discussions
3. All Forum discussions ( options 1 and 2 combined).
All Forum discussions could be the default or everyone could have an option to choose one of the other tabs be your personal default.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Dec 15, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
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A "HIDE THREAD" button is all we need. Then everyone can be as selective as they'd like to be, without changing the overall Wild West format of ST.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 15, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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Wow, they grow 'em Tall in Ben Lomond!
+1
!~~~!
Dingus, haMan. Fastest gun in the West.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Dec 16, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
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Further expounding on my suggestion, not only would a "Hide Thread" button have the least impact on ST's structure, it would probably be the easiest to implement. I've seen lots of suggestions, in this thread and elsewhere, for subforums, but that seems like a nightmare to me at this point. As of a count 3 minutes ago there are 72,201 threads here. Would someone have to sort through them and pick which goes where or would everything before a cutoff be grandfathered in one subforum after another, and how many subforums would we need? Just "on topic" and "off topic"? Where would the line be drawn? Some are obvious, but others (the outdoor photography threads springs to mind) could go either way.
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pc
climber
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Dec 16, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
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Right on Tami! And if a post/person gets 3 "Shutups" on a post or within 24 hours, they're unable to post for 1 week....(or some such wing clipping...)
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 16, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
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I posted earlier on this thread, mentioned some personal difficulties, my email Cmac regarding OT, even some rock pix and some of me climbing, I wish I could post more climbing stuff, TRs, photos (back when I did a lot of climbing, 1969-1982 or so didn't really lug around a camera, wish I had even a small kodak or something, instead of the very nice SLR my mom bought me.)
Now the cameras aare so small with high quality, easy peasy to carry on a climb.
But alas, Jennie's illness has caused me to curtail a lot of my plans, tick lists and dreams. But she is worth it. Not only climbing (first love), but sailing and scuba too. Hope she returns back into my care from the nursing home. Don't know. But I would give all my pursuits to have her return happy and healthy.
Most of the OT thread are fine, many informative, some do deteriorate.
I am going to start a thread now, on online payments actually I was not phished but my debit card was used somehow while I was in hospital. I find that there are a lot of net/tech savvy people on the Taco Stand, many times giving better and more simpler advice that Apple forums, or other tech forums.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Dec 17, 2014 - 11:00am PT
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The irony being that if a "Hide Thread" button is ever implemented, this thread is also getting hidden. ;)
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 17, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
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When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong?
About post 6 on this thread.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 17, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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Is Cmac even paying any attention to his own thread?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
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Why should he read it?
He already knows you're all insane!!!
Stooopid loons can't stop posting in those threads you hate instead ya all keep bumping them up.
No fuking self control at all instead ya blame everything outside of yerselves.
Just point the finger at someone other than yerself is this stoopid forum policy here.
There's no hope fer yaa all, yer certifed goners.
There's no medicine that exists for ya.
You'll all be reborn as forum data bit monkeys in yer next lives .....
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John M
climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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There is some truth in what you post Werner, but you ignore that we all live on this planet together. So we all collectively have to deal with the karma each person produces. Example.. even if you don't litter, others do. Ignoring it doesn't make it stop. Though in Ron's case, neither does yelling at him. which is why I deleted my posts to him.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 17, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 17, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
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Stooopid loons can't stop posting in those threads you hate instead ya all keep bumping them up.
You keep riding the post like a hooker too Werner.
Be a true zen man and cut it out!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
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I have nothing to do with zen.
The impersonalists do that stuff ......
And besides I don't give a sh!t what Ron Anderson does ......
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 17, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
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When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong?
NEVER Some of you will never figure out what the answer to the thread title is. NEVER
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 17, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
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Why should he read it?
Ummmmm, because he started it?
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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hes just trolling you goons.....dingus got it!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
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independent individualistic thought is being heavily monitored and squashed in our society by ones who wish to control and enslave
rock climbers tend to be strong independent intelligent individuals, which makes it worthwhile to participate in discussions on SuperTopo
so it is predictable to see the SuperTopo owner under fire from controller insiders attempting to quash independent thought in our society...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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Yup.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 17, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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some more randome OT stuff!
I love this thread!!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 19, 2014 - 10:01am PT
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^^^
Now that made me laugh Bruce. Considerng all the crap I am going through right now here in Ireland, I love your comment, it has lightened up my day.
Cheers
Patrick
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Dec 19, 2014 - 10:18am PT
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 19, 2014 - 10:44am PT
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Chris,
Specifically, do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo?
To answer the question specifically; I don't think so.
Defining what's off topic on ST is a hard question that only the people who started and attempt to manage this forum can determine.
The strictest position would be that if it's not about climbing, it's too far off topic.
That would unfortunately eliminate a lot of often provocative and sometimes enlightening discourse.
Supertopo has "schooled" me on the pitfalls of communicating in cyberspace and I think I'm for the most part, a better communicator for the lessons.
We all have differing ideas of where the line between free speech and tasteless vitriol might be.
I think there's far too much that's clearly on the wrong side of the line around this virtual campfire and we'd never get away with such behaviour if we really were standing around a campfire.
Our societies have over the millennia developed the rule of law and true democracy and free speech are guided by this concept.
I think ST would benefit from a code of conduct and clear limits on language and unseemly discourse.
Respect.
PB
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2014 - 11:07am PT
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This thread reminds me of that famous line: "If you have to ask what it costs, you can't afford it."
If you have to ask the OP question, then you can't afford the "answer."
The "development" of this thread affords "the answer."
(I surmise that CMac just executed one of the most classic trolls on these forums. Eventually even he's bored with it.)
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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Defining what's off topic on ST is a hard question that only the people who started and attempt to manage this forum can determine.
Or with a "Hide Thread" button everyone could determine for themselves. ;D
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 26, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
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The only thing that bugs me about ST - an enduring feature of the internet - is the occasional complete anonymity of posters. In particular regarding religious or political rants, when not only do the posters conceal their name but they offer no evidence they were or are climbers - not even a photo of themselves on the rock or ice. But others here may differ and welcome a larger variety of opinion than is found in the climbing community.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 26, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
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Werner for Secretary of State. So much better than Kerry.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 26, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
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+1 for jgill
Some minimal amount of climbing content would be nice along with all the anonymous psuedo-intellectual masterbation.
Rob Stahl
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 26, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
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+1+1 for JGill.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 26, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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all the anonymous psuedo-intellectual masterbation...
The only thing that bugs me about ST... is the occasional complete anonymity of posters. In particular regarding religious or political rants, when not only do the posters conceal their name but they offer no evidence they were or are climbers - not even a photo of themselves on the rock...
+3.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 27, 2014 - 04:59am PT
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Chris McNamara: Specifically, do blatantly political threads like "Why Republicans are wrong..." belong on SuperTopo?
There is the topic of climbing, and there is the community that climbs. The topic of climbing is fairly monolithic and singular. We know what climbing is and isn’t. But the community is varied, and it has many different personality facets that would be exposed around a campfire. If you were to limit community conversations to only one topic, people would get bored. We’d all turn in. Conversations range. Communities and language cannot be caged.
I may be wrong, but the climbing community seems educated, experienced, technically oriented, progressive, and travelled. IMO, they seem to favor democratic sensibilities. It seems that many people here think that Republicans are wrong. The size of that thread and its longevity suggest that it was a very popular topic—and that would make it relevant to the community.
EDIT: I forgot to add that it's a rough crowd.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 27, 2014 - 05:09am PT
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^^^The only thing I liked about that thread is that it kept political rants and squabbles, that would otherwise spawn more OT threads, contained to one thread.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 27, 2014 - 06:25am PT
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I have a confession to make. Sometimes even when out climbing with others, we talk all day long, when the climbing allows, but don't discus climbing.
From now on, I swear as a climber, to only talk about climbing.
with deepest regret,
Jon Cochran
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dec 27, 2014 - 08:24am PT
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Hey, I climbed that Lowenbrau route about 15 years ago. Played around on the wobbly, curving flake around the corner to the right. Wrote some flip, now embarrassing remark, about the cold winter wind, in the cairn on top...sigh.
But I really appreciate all of the input on this website. With such varied backgrounds and strong opinions amongst climbers, there's a bit of everything. I click and read what I want and don't take opinions personal.
FWIW: I do think that less anonymity would tone down the harshness.
Edit:
Hey, thanks Dave. I have that diagram somewhere on my bookshelf, but I am now out of country.
Amazing how much good granite is in East County.
I think the tone of this thread is good, and even has some climbing stuff...LMAO
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 27, 2014 - 08:56am PT
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Or with a "Hide Thread" button everyone could determine for themselves. ;D
and "deleting" a few idiots doesn't suck either...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Hey Chris Mac,
You start a post, you ask some questions.
You now have 400 answers from us, but not a single reply from you. Please tell us what you are going to do!
There is no point in starting a post like this, if you don't intend to respond! So how bout it pls?
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