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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:34am PT
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Agree, except for this...
If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, it may well slowly mold climbing into a safer, more sterile version of what it is today.
Equating "safer" with "sterile", well, sounds like a 29 year-old.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:42am PT
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Thanks, Peter. Very interesting.
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saa
Social climber
sadly, sitting on a chair with a beer
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:42am PT
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Same old same old. Just a company cutting overhead when
times are tough.
This has nothing to do with alex, dean, steph, timmy, cedar or
other's quality. Just the math of corporate rentability.
cheers to all, in the valley, in josh, and elsewhere...
sabine
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:51am PT
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The reader comments are the most interesting part of the article. Here is a typical sentiment:
This is an example of too much freedom. He has the right to engage in highly risky behaviors - but as a member of society he has an ethical responsibility to minimize threats to his life because of his relationships to other people. Are we so caught up with freedom and individuality that the whole notion of society and personal relationships is now second to our own needs and wants? I disagree strongly with this attitude but I think it is a prevalent (and dangerous)one.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:55am PT
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^^^ dangerous?
I'm assuming the writer was talking about the loved ones attending a funeral, god forbid.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:59am PT
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Yes, dangerous. People in positions of power have the ability to make what you enjoy doing illegal, if they are inclined to do so. e.g. base jumping in Yo. They can move the line when they feel like it.
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David D.
Trad climber
California
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:00am PT
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In climbing, sponsors typically support an athlete but provide very little direction, giving the climber free rein to follow his or her passion toward whatever is inspiring. It’s a wonderful freedom, in many ways similar to that of an artist who simply lives his life and creates whatever moves him. Clif Bar’s decision to fire the five of us may limit that freedom.
Actually, Alex, it won't limit your freedom at all. You'll just continue to climb with one less sponsorship. Or, even if all your sponsorships disappeared, you'll continue to climb and freesolo just like the thousands of dirtbags doing that right now without any free Clif bars.
In an interview on the website of the magazine Rock and Ice, Dean Potter said: “My fear is with the onset of mainstream interest in extreme sports that diversity will be subdued and eventually snubbed out within our great outdoor community. Shouldn’t we question when the leaders of our community try to manipulate our culture into a mono crop?”
If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, it may well slowly mold climbing into a safer, more sterile version of what it is today.
This is where I take issue with the sense of entitlement some people have about this. If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, then the motivations of those partaking in them are inherently less sterile and more untainted by commercial interests. People aren't going to stop freesoloing because Clif Bar pulled their support for freesoloists and, if they were, they aren't the type of people that should have been soloing anyways.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:02am PT
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^^^
A+!!!!
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saa
Social climber
sadly, sitting on a chair with a beer
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:05am PT
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hi dmt
considering how much north face, adidas, prana, 5-10, patagonia, etc shell out, i would guess the math is about the same, although i do not know the full extent of clifbar athlete list.
take all these elements, and the company's budget in, and run the equations. you ll have your answer.
cheers
s
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:08am PT
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^^^^
F-
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:09am PT
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Honestly the more I hear and read from Alex the more I like him. Excellent article dude.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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Yes. Wise words from Alex.
I think, crankster, even this sentence is OK:
If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, it may well slowly mold climbing into a safer, more sterile version of what it is today.
Commercial support has been been molding climbing into a safer version for decades. Back in the 60s climbing was sponsor-free and anarchic. Risk-assessment was a big part of the activity, every time one decided to step off the ground. That's how I was introduced to the sport. It was not for everyone.
Risk-taking is a powerful urge with huge internal, personal rewards. No need for outside encouragement from sponsors, at least not for soloing, which is about the most inexpensive form of climbing there is.
Among the mass of climbers there will always be folks who seek out and embrace risk.
It's all good.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:15am PT
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This country is filled with loon cranknutcases .....
Typing away
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:26am PT
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Yes, dangerous. People in positions of power have the ability to make what you enjoy doing illegal, if they are inclined to do so. e.g. base jumping in Yo. They can move the line when they feel like it.
Take this to an extreme, and you have things like "taking children to a location out of cell phone range or more than 2 hours from a major hospital is illegal."
In the course of my divorce I had to directly deal with issues similar to this, where people who absolutely cannot relate to an outdoor lifestyle are judging whether or not I am an adequate father or whether the kids are safe to be with me. It is very unnerving to have your life choices regulated by people with values very different from yours.
That said, legality is very different from the sponsorship choices made by a for-profit company. I wouldn't read too much into the degree to which a company wants to cover its ass.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:32am PT
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Clif Bar’s decision to fire the five of us may limit that freedom.
Well, you could quit whining and get a job like a normal person.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:33am PT
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Best comment:
My admiration for your determination to discover the outer limits of your inner self is boundless. You are the embodiment of individual freedom, and your climbs are the grandest expression of human action.
Metaphors seek to the point to the truth. Scaling cliffs and mountains uncover every truth worth having. Rock on, my friend, breathe in the pure alpine air, and leave the corporate and governmental and societal swamp creatures down below to wallow in their fear and in their corruption.
Faithfully,
S.A. Traina
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:35am PT
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^^^^
Yep.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:36am PT
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Well, you could quit whining and get a job like a normal person
He already has a job doing what he's doing.
Looking at it from outside it doesn't really look obvious to most people.
Most jobs don't "look" like that .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:44am PT
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The win to Clif Bar....op ed in the NY Times. They have gotten a boatload of free press. Lot's of people probably heard their name for the first time in the last week.
There is no such thing as bad press.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:54am PT
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I like how he gets published in the NY Times. Clif couldn't do that with their side, nor could the sum of all their other forgettable athletes doing forgettable things. Clif couldn't send him a role of TP. Hilarious.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:55am PT
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Werner, it ain't a job, it's welfare for the entitled. As a shareholder I don't want to see my
investment frittered away on useless sh!t.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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Not in the context I refer to. Some people think Clif Bar is doing the responsible things, others will just feel familiar with the label when they see it. Most of advertising works on a subliminal level.
Don 't get me wrong, i don't use their product and i don't like what they did.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:07am PT
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Reilly
Like Donini says " Most of advertising works on a subliminal level."
It's still a job.
I know how it is having been around and worked with several sponsored climbers in the past.
You can get easily get killed if you don't have your head screwed on right by being a sponsored climber.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:23am PT
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I would have thought this was a fringe issue involving some oddballs, but there it is in the NYT. Jim's right, the publicity will be good for clif bar. Most of their customers aren't climbers, but still have opinions on risk. In general, the more climbing is popularized, the more it will transform into sport climbing and bouldering as more people get into it. That's counterbalanced, though, by Honnold's extreme style.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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David D. and c wilmot, crown bearers of this thread.
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Chris Wegener
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 20, 2014 - 10:50am PT
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But the point everyone seems to be overlooking is Alex *isn't* doing it for himself. He is doing it for the people that are filming it so that others can see him doing it.
I appreciate that when he is climbing he is in his own world, as we all are but he is still doing the soloing for public consumption because it gets him money.
I have no problem with climbers who solo, though I personally find it fool hardy because to the ultimate finality of any mistakes, but it is a personal choice.
However free soloing for the camera is a public performance and has no greater value than anyone else going to work.
Regards,
Chris
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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But the point everyone seems to be overlooking is Alex *isn't* doing it for himself. He is doing it for the people that are filming it so that others can see him doing it.
I appreciate that when he is climbing he is in his own world, as we all are but he is still doing the soloing for public consumption because it gets him money.
I have no problem with climbers who solo, though I personally find it fool hardy because to the ultimate finality of any mistakes, but it is a personal choice.
However free soloing for the camera is a public performance and has no greater value than anyone else going to work.
Regards,
Chris
That's the conundrum. I sure hope that Alex is doing what he does for himself, with the cameras along for the ride when it suits him. And not the other way round.
Soloing requires ruthless self-honesty and self-awareness. Alex himself is keenly aware of this issue and he surely deals with it every time he stands at the base of a climb, camera crew at the ready.
Perhaps it's impossible to ignore the presence of cameras all the time, but Alex, I think, is way ahead of most of us in his ability to decide what he is comfortable with regardless of outside interests.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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That's his choice, to free solo for money.
Just like its Clif Bar company's choice, to pay him or not?
DMT
Yup.
Just the New York Times' choice to have Alex write for their Opinion pages.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 20, 2014 - 11:31am PT
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Wow, that was a lot of prime OpEd real estate to essentially say nothing.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
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Thanks good article I like him.
"I draw the lines for myself; sponsors don't have any bearing on my choices"
"Clif bars decision to fire the five of us may limit that freedom."
"If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, it may slowly mold climbing into a safer, more sterile version of what it is today."
Hard to put it all together. He isn't affected by whether or not they sponsor him - it has no bearing on his choices - but it may limit his options (the effect on him is that he has fewer choices) and it may affect other people and mold climbing into something safer.
We do the best we can to create beliefs that explain our behaviors. When we fall short we try not to notice. What else can we do - we're only humans! Praise Jesus! (Clif Bar sucks) Woof!
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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THere is something to the "performance for money" perspective. As a society, we have attempted to put limits on what companies can ask us to do for moeny. Putting aside how practical or how effective these measures may be, we certainly have stemmed a lot of bloodshed in the riskier occupations through such regulation. As a society, we struggle with what we ask our professional athletes to do and the risks they take - the concussion flurry right now, the DEA inspections of NFL locker rooms, etc. Money distorts the perception of risk and reward.
I have conflicting thoughts about the risk and reward balance in climbing. I like making the decision for myself about how much risk I am willing to take, and its damn small. I don't need to impose my equation on others. Y'all may not think of this as on the same planet. But compared to the vast pajroity in this country, they find it unfathomable and insane.
But there is a very mistaken notion that the only risk is personal. I have seen too many climbing areas shut down and regulations imposed because someone got hurt or died. I don't want to ruin the opportunity for others to climb because I wanted to explore my boundaries. It may not be convenient, but pusing boundaries may be best done where it doesn't imperil access to climbing for others.
Alex has talent and doesn't have a wife and kids to take care of. His calculus may change if his life's circumstances change. I won't think less of him if he chooses a different path later in life.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
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If you're going to risk your life for money, do something useful and go to Africa to work in an Ebola clinic. Although I think that's too simple, and the money is probably not a big factor. I'd guess the fame and respect is a much more powerful draw. The only good reason, as many have said, you could call spiritual or personal development.
I remember an interview with a rock guitarist, can't remember who it was, who said he felt like a circus clown on stage. It was creative and amazing at first, then he realized his job was not entirely fulfilling. When that happens, its never too late to start something new.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, it may well slowly mold climbing into a safer, more sterile version of what it is today. But I tend to think that whether sponsors support such behavior or not shouldn’t really have any bearing on our motivations.
+1. If you solo (or even climb in the first place) to impress the sponsors or the public, you should think about it a few more times.
I wonder how much $ was actually awarded to these athletes? Or was it all you can eat Clif bars and no check?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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I thought it was a well written piece. Not sure why some thought it somewhat vacuous. In short, he was simply affirming Clif Bars right to withdraw his sponsorship, but remind others that he climbed what and how he did for personal reasons, not because he was paid to. What the big deal?
Like others have pointed out, I found the comments interesting, like the person who dismissed it as "stunt" climbing or the guy from Texas who criticized him because, to paragraph, mountaineers pick the best "rout" to the top, not the hardest. Remarkable how people are happy to voice their opinions about matters they know absolutely nothing about.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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Nice article, though it certainly could have been condensed to "It's all good..."
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dugillian
Trad climber
Vancouver
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Nov 20, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Whoopy dee doo.....Climbers selling crap...The World does not need more crap to eat or buy....NY Times must be desperate for real news stories? If they need filler like this they may as well become FOX News.
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 20, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
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There's another way of looking at it than Clif giving Honnold a paycheck to climb/take risks.
Like Honnold says, he would climb/solo anyway.
Clif used images of Honnold and Honnold's image for marketing purposes, and pays Honnold for the privilege.
Now Clif has calculated that associating the brand with (risky) climbing is a poor (marketing) decision, which is up to them.
Just like they keep making the same decision not to pay me to associate themselves with my image.
And, Alex keeps on climbing.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
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Nice writing, Alex! See you on the bridge in the spring, eh?
Cheers, mate
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
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It's a double-edge sword and Dean gets it exactly right - you simply can't merchandise climbing as just another risk-free, pop-suburban entertainment option which generates revenue streams without dragging the whole of it down to a lowest-common-denominator perception of '[socially] acceptable risk' inherent in that unsavory bargain. You can't have it both ways. It's like selling your virginity and hoping against hope that you'll still be a virgin in the morning. Duh...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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There were reader comments for that post?
I guess I must have missed what the man said.
Comments are always so enlightening...
but there's always a gem.
a lot of prime OpEd real estate to essentially say nothing.
EC In My Butt--It must have been a "slow opinion day."
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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Risk is hard to quantify; Todd Skinner and Jim Madsen died doing roped climbing; did they take a greater risk just because they were careless, just once, at exactly the wrong time? Most of us have to admit that at times, we have taken unnecessary risks and gotten away with it.
John Long wrote that classic article about missing a sequence free soloing with Bachar, and nearly peeling. He survived, then almost kills himself in the gym! Risk seems to have an unpredictable, chaotic element to it.
There is something to be said for taking less risk if you have a child who will have to grow up without a parent. I know many climbers who take much fewer risks once they are parents. Even Honnold would break his Mother's heart if he dies soloing.
Those who object to the decision can vote with their feet; buy something not made by Clif Bar.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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"Everyone needs to find his or her own limits for risk, and if Clif Bar wants to back away from the cutting edge, that’s certainly a fair decision. But we will all continue climbing..."
Touche, Alex.;)
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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But the point everyone seems to be overlooking is Alex *isn't* doing it for himself. He is doing it for the people that are filming it so that others can see him doing it.
No, the point is..umm..the fact is that Alex is mostly soloing solo. He comes back to the route later with cameras and redoes the "easier" stuff for his JOB.
At least that is what he humbly told the audience of veteran climbers at Oakdale last year. And I have no reason to doubt him....especially when he showed us slides of how it is done behind the scenes.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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PS Cliff Bars are f'n everywhere here in SoCal; every super market, every gas station market..even the stores like CVS, Rite Aid, Longs Drugs. -I doubt they are hurting for money.
Pretty easy to squirt out a bar and package it in a foil envelope. Nothing technical about it, so I ASSUME their overhead is pretty low in relation to those huge revenue numbers posted earlier in this thread.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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How many people have died choking on a cliff bar?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
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I'm curious... did any climbers get paid for the 60-Minutes piece?
I believe the mainstream media has a policy of not paying
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
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What about truth in advertising? What happens to all of the people, especially non-climbers, that might see Alex free-soloing in an ad or movie and it is not made known that he has rehearsed many of these climbs with ropes and gear. That's the bullshit part of this.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:40pm PT
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What happens to all of the people, especially non-climbers, that might see Alex free-soloing in an ad or movie and it is not made known that he has rehearsed many of these climbs with ropes and gear.
dunno, what? Im on the edge of my seat now....WHAT HAPPENS?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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^^^^
I don't have a problem with this. I think most people watching him solo something don't necessarily have the belief that it's an on sight, even know the difference or even care. I've done lots of climbs repeated times. That does not mean that I have any business soloing them. A solo is still a solo, especially if it's just for the camera.
Also, risk is relative, as other have pointed out. I think it was in an Alpinist article (no. 35 I think) where it was noted that his dad--who was not in the best shape--died of a heartache running to catch a plane at the airport. Risk is all around us. At least he's acknowledging, and accepting, that it has a large presence in what he does.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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You forgot the last sentence;
That's the bullshit part of this.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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Truth in advertising?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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What happens when a stunt man jumps out of a high rise building and falls into a trash can, then gets up and runs away.
Ooooohhhhh ya I can do that too from the top of the New freedom tower in New York because I saw it on TV, rolls eyes.
You people are loons.
You're scared of yer own shadows.
Buy this sh!t or buy that sh!t .... you've commercialized your free will and your life itself.
You're prisoners and slaves to your own illusioned selves all while preaching your phoney American freedoms ...
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Nov 20, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
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Clif Bar's new target demographic:
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 20, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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Clif Bar’s decision to fire the five of us may limit that freedom.
Well, you could quit whining and get a job like a normal person.
Except Alex is not a normal person. Not remotely so. Some people hear this as Alex being "better" than them, and they start in with the entitlement rap. Does anyone ask Lebron James if he has an entitlement thing because he expects to be paid millions to play ball?
While climbing is not a spectator sport, supporting people like Alex sends a charge into the atmosphere. The 60 Minutes piece generated huge numbers. Alex also gives us duffers something to rant and whine and wax about, and to feel like our thoughts and opinions keep us relevant in a game based entirely on doing. Alex Honnold is a fantastic stimulator.
It's also simplistic to claim that Alex is soloing for money, as though that were his one and only motivation.
Like most things, I think we consider free soloing in terms of our own experience and biases and our level of accepted risk. Those favoring safety and security will find little to reccomend Alex, and will trot out wods like "irresponsible" and so forth, believing that there is some objctive truth to these charges. Those intrigued by the unknown, by the luer of the mental and physical limit, will count Alex as a pathfinder.
JL
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
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About risk. I think, and have often said here and elsewhere, that risk is an inherent part of trad climbing. Remove the risk and I think you have sport climbing, which I'm not knocking at all mind you. But I've come to believe that behind all the prescriptions about ground up and no preinspection and no hangdogging and all the many arcane definitions of trad climbing lies a single core concept: risk ought to be preserved, and the performance of the climber in the face of risk (this included, of course, what the climber does to mitigate risk) is what truly defines trad climbing.
That said, free soloing is not some anomalous departure from the norm, it is part of the spectrum that makes trad climbing what it is, and I think trad climbers who find fault with the chances Honnold takes are drawing highly arbitrary lines in a sand far too fine for anyone outside climbing to be able to sift through.
Although I've done quite a lot of free-soloing (admittedly at pedestrian levels mostly below 5.10), by far the riskiest moments (and there have been quite a few) in my 57 years of climbing occurred while roped up. Honnold is a master, I'm quite sure beyond my understanding, but I don't see him doing something all that different in principle from things I and most of the climbers I know done over the years. So let he who climbs without risk cast the first stone.
I read Honnold's NYT piece. He writes well and seems eminently likable. The fact is that, so-called community outrage notwithsanding, he and Potter and Wright all see Clif's evaluation of its risks, and its actions in response to that evaluation, as understandable and in the same basic spirit as they conduct themselves. It's mostly everyone else whose underwear is in a twist.
I do think the claim that the presence of sponsors has no effect on judgement and decision-making strains credulity. I've headed out for a day of soloing, something just didn't feel right, and so I did something else instead. But when you have a photo team at the ready, the route rigged with fixed ropes, people in place with cameras, not to mention correspondents in the Valley and all the trailers and cables and equipment that seems to be associated with such undertakings, do you really say, "y'know, guys, I'm just not feelin' it today." Maybe you do, but then again, maybe not. Personally, I don't think I'd be able to access that state of pure self-centered isolation in which the decision to carry on or not can be made without any exterior influences, but then again---in case no one noticed---I'm not Alex Honnold.
I also think Alex mucks up his case with some of the things he says. When he speaks of a potential loss of freedom ensuing from diminished sponsorship, I think that is going to sound a rather sour note with all the climbers who have managed over the years to pursue their passions without someone else paying the bills for it. And if he is invoking the image of artists with patrons, we should remember that, historically, the artist often did the work the patron wanted done.
I think he further undermines his position by quoting Potter about the withdrawal of sponsorhip stifling diversity and producing a "mono-crop." I don't see how you can claim sponsorhip is powerful enough to contract the spectrum of climbing pursuits while at the same time insisting that it has no power over the individual climber. You can't have it both ways.
I hope Honnold has a long, brilliant, and astonishing career, and that when the game is up, he will be be able to see clearly that it is.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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What would Sir Christian Bonnington have to say about sponsorship?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 20, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
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What about truth in advertising? What happens to all of the people, especially non-climbers, that might see Alex free-soloing in an ad or movie and it is not made known that he has rehearsed many of these climbs with ropes and gear. That's the bullshit part of this.
-
Not sure the generaly laymen would hold Alex to task for not adnering to a staunch on-sight only ethic. So viewers feel jobbd when they watch a gymnastic routine that has been practiced for months, or a dancer doing a highly choreographed routine?
If one goes so far as to label Alex bullsh#t, then you are almost obliged to supply examples of who you might consider the real deal.
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 20, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
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Ooohhhhhhhkay... Maybe I'll regret this in the morning but here is my two cents worth:
As I see it, this overall event primarily involves the actions of Clif Bar ,and not the ultimate meaning of "risk" or "free soloing" or the general nature of climbing , or anything of the sort. We as a climbing community should have all those things dialed in by now---and we don't necessarily need to start a fresh round of hand-wringing or torturous self-examination vis a vis Honnold or anybody else.
By examining Clif Bar's Wiki page a wealth of implicit material is instantly available as to the possible reason for their actions as regards the summary dismissal of the "Clif Bar Five"
In order to avoid getting long-winded I'll cut to what I see as the chase and attempt to highlight a couple of interrelated developments:
The company’s business practices are not without controversy, however. In 2012, Clif Bar came under fire for not disclosing where they source their chocolate from.[24] According to the nonprofit Food Empowerment Project (F.E.P.), two West African countries, Ghana and the Ivory Coast, supply 75 percent of the world’s cocoa market. In recent years, a handful of organizations and journalists have exposed the widespread use of child labor and, in some cases, slavery on West African cocoa farms.[25] Volunteers with F.E.P. contact companies that make vegan products containing chocolate to find out if they source their cocoa beans from areas where slavery can still be found.[26] F.E.P. first contacted Clif Bar in May 2011, and the company has refused to disclose the source of its chocolate.[27] The nonprofit launched a campaign in March 2012 asking consumers to contact Clif Bar and demand transparency in light of the possible connection to child labor and human slavery.[24] On March 5, 2012, Clif Bar & Company announced that "100 percent of cocoa ingredients for CLIF Bar will be sourced from Rainforest Alliance Certified farms." [28]
So, here we see Clif Bar having a bullseye drawn on them by a left wing pressure group interested in the delicate art of political brow beating. It looks like once this "nonprofit" political extortion group approached CB for a possible shake down --- apparently the rash but natural decision was made at CB to tell them to go fork themselves:
F.E.P. first contacted Clif Bar in May 2011, and the company has refused to disclose the source of its chocolate.[
Probably at this point it would be instructive to provide a little background on Clif Bar relative to this discussion:
Company facilities include an on-site gym, rock climbing wall, two yoga room/dance studios, and massage rooms. There are on-site showers so employees can shower after their workout. Employees also have access to free counseling and life coaching.[31] Employees can bring their dogs to work and get two and a half hours of paid exercise each week with free personal training. Clif Bar & Company was named among Outside magazine's Best Places to Work in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.[e
Wow. Life-coachin'. A hip Northern Cali trendy-techodemocrat corporation plugged into the Obama donor network and uber conscious of their social responsibility and how they might look to the Berkeley political sciences department:
Clif Bar's community outreach began in 2001 with the initial aim of donating 2,080 employee volunteer hours to community service.[38] In 2010, Clif employees donated 5,290 hours.[39] In 2008, Clif Bar initiated "In Good Company", which organizes employees across several companies to assist in larger development projects, such as in New Orleans, East Oakland, and the Hopi Reservation in Arizona.[40]
Good huh? So why was the initial decision made to blow-off this FEP shakedown group?
Me thinks CB eventually regarded the 2012 decision as a regrettable mistake and reversed course by:
In April 2013, Kevin Cleary was named CEO of the company; co-owners Erickson and Kit Crawford became co-chief visionary officers.[2]
So folks, your guy is this Cleary fellar----who is a sort of fall guy/political operative more effectively plugged into the Democrat Party wheelhouse. I use the term "fall guy" because they've thrown the ball to him. Such as it is, at this point. To lead them out of the wilderness caused by that one moment of rash political incorrectness. Oh the humanity.
He's now been in the corp for over a year and presently they are looking at him to start making big course corrections...big decisions.
The "Cliff Bar Five" was one of those decisions.
The ultimate rationale is unclear--- but it may be as simple as Cleary thinking that if one of these high risk sponsorees buys the farm it just might give fresh ammunition to those aforementioned pressure groups to start a new round of brow beating, intimidation, and shake downs. In other words, at some point not only might Clif Bar be thought of as responsible for slavery and child labor but somehow additionally culpable in the tragic demise of a young free soloer falling 1000ft to a highly-publicized death below.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 20, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
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If one goes so far as to label Alex bullsh#t, then you are almost obliged to supply examples of who you might consider the real deal.
I'm not labeling Alex as Bullsh#t. I'm speaking of the promotion surrounding him. Even as a climber I was surprised to find out that he had climbed his most recent free-solo route at Squamish quite a few times roped. The sensational news does not let you know that, and it does not let the public know that - they have to dig for the reality. I'm just trying to point out that it is very misleading to the majority of people buying Clif Bars. It starts to feel like a con after awhile. Comparing him to a gymnast that has been practicing a routine hardly works. The gymnast is not trying to tell you they are something they are not. Are we supposed to think that the single high-risk free-solo at Squamish is somehow more important than the other 15 ascents that made it possible? Which is more real?
Here's a piece from an ALPINIST interview of Alex; "I'd climbed the U Wall many times before over my four different summers in Squamish. This season alone, I climbed it three times with three different friends. Cedar [Wright] and I climbed it in the rain on a day that would otherwise have been too wet to climb. "
This is the part the Clif Bar market does not get to see and is why I think promoting free-soloing to the public gave Clif Bar second thoughts. Me? I get a kick out of watching the climbing, but I don't fool myself thinking I'm seeing something I'm really not seeing.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Nov 20, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
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So, was Clif Bar shelling out a lot of money? Otherwise I don't understand what's the big deal. And even if they were, I don't see why the NYT is interested. They're having a slow news day? Congress, Ebola, ISIS, etc. not capturing the readers' attention anymore?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Nov 21, 2014 - 07:52am PT
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The conversation would definitely make more sense if we knew what kind of money we're talking about. I think there is a direct relationship between dollar amount and responsibility. If all they get is all the free clif bars a person could choke on, that's not worth dying for. On the other hand, for $50,000 a year you could probably have one of them perform any trick you wanted. Where's the middle ground where the money is too much of an influence? Maybe a lot less than $50k if you live out of your car.
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YosemiteSteve
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:20am PT
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What he said.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:14am PT
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I think that one of the NYT Picks comments sums it up nicely:
If your goal is to challenge yourself, to see what is possible, to see what you are capable of, to live in that moment on the edge between control and failure, between fear and glory, then maybe don't take the easiest route.
Between fear and glory. What glory? We create the glory in our brains, and Clif Bar no longer wants to contribute to taking what many see as a silly self-indulgent unnecessary risk and convincing us to think of it as glory.
That we here at supertopo with our risk favoring adventurous brain functioning like to think of this as glory because doing so makes us and our brain functioning glorious- that's cool. But where we fall down is when we succeed in convincing ourselves that this is glorious in an objective sense - that our sense of risk taking and adventure is right and glorious, and those other wankers are the ones with the faulty brains.
We humans are overwhelmingly good at confirmation bias - what I believe is true, the way my brain works is right - but really? Maybe we and our beliefs are all right pieces of a bigger puzzle, and this is an opportunity for us to understand how we're al(l)right rather than how others are wrong.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:18am PT
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I think someone should make a "Solo Bar" and put these guys on their payroll. I'm thinking a bar shaped so that you don't have to worry about putting it in a pocket or pack, something you could even carry if you decide to climb naked. . .in your prison pouch.
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:45am PT
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The comments from NYT readers are very telling about how the non-climbing world sees this topic - far less heroically than we do.
I like Honnold, I've soloed some and understand the attraction. But odds are someday he'll crater in (like so many others have) and hopefully someone, somewhere feels a sense of guilt for having cheered him forward. If Alex was your sibling would you be holding him back or cheering him forward?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:54am PT
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It's a hard call. We like the entertainment and seeing somebody finding the space in their head to rise upward in ways that have not been done before. Personally I like the style Alex just climbed the Muir Wall in; fast, good runouts, with the rope there to take a good whipper. That's something people can aspire to.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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"But odds are someday he'll crater in..."
Only if he continues. Apparently he's writing a memoir, which suggests he might be retiring sooner rather than later - at least from the more seriously risky business.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:57am PT
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That we here at supertopo with our risk favoring adventurous brain functioning like to think of this as glory because doing so makes us and our brain functioning glorious- that's cool. But where we fall down is when we succeed in convincing ourselves that this is glorious in an objective sense - that our sense of risk taking and adventure is right and glorious, and those other wankers are the ones with the faulty brains.
What's "objective?" Show your work.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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Largo: Alex also gives us duffers something to rant and whine and wax about, and to feel like our thoughts and opinions keep us relevant in a game based entirely on doing.
Funny.
But, about the “doing” part. . . . It’s an issue of “being” to me. There’s a sense of aesthetics, ethics, character, experience that stands out for me about soloing. Subjectivity. No matter what, it is personal.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Nov 21, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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Chugach
hopefully someone, somewhere feels a sense of guilt for having cheered him forward. If Alex was your sibling would you be holding him back or cheering him forward?
PLEASE NAME ONE PERSON THAT HAS CHEERED ALEX FORWARD!!!!!!
That's right, not one person comes to mind does it. Just because people are amazed at what he has done, and are curious about what he may do next has nothing to do with cheering him forward. Alex is too smart to give a sh#t what you think anyways.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 21, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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But odds are someday he'll crater in (like so many others have) and hopefully someone, somewhere feels a sense of guilt for having cheered him forward. If Alex was your sibling would you be holding him back or cheering him forward?
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Show us the statistics that scads of free soloists are dropping all over the place ("like so many others . . . ). In fact there are no numbers to support anything but the fact that free solo accidents, especially by experts in their prime, are so rare they don't even generate any meaningful numbers. And the notion that you, or I, or Cliffbar can directly infulence a free soloers actions is doubtful, especially from "cheering them on." We people in the peanut gallery simply don't have that kind of reach. And the idea that we should cultivate guilt for encouraging Alex to do anything but attend Catholic Bible Class is not a comment befitting an adventure web site, rather a kniting circle.
JL
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 21, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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Between fear and glory. What glory? We create the glory in our brains, and Clif Bar no longer wants to contribute to taking what many see as a silly self-indulgent unnecessary risk and convincing us to think of it as glory.
Clif bar will sponsor who they want, but eating a clif bar is pretty self -indulgent and unnecessary in the first place.
The fact they put a picture of a helmetless climber on their wrapper or market bars to kids with a logo of a child climbing seems silly in the first place if they don’t want to promote any risky behavior.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Nov 21, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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Thank you Johno-L. Good one.
Some of us are needlepoint girls though. Tighter, barely tips, everything is tinier, working in a stretcher frame.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Nov 21, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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There are three kinds of lies: "Lies, Dam Lies and Statistics" Mark Twain
Scads of lads or scants of ants it only takes one. Off the top of my head I can quickly count five or more solo climbers who have taken the plunge.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 21, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
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According to Donini....this is no adventure site.
And based on many of those here, this is more of a knitting site.
That is a hive-like mindset. Pushing the boundries for yourself is what it is all about, it is what this life is all about. Competition, comparing, or impressing others is for the ego, but adventure is for your inner self where no one is watching. That happens on snake dike or an unnamed peak in patagonia, and is equally as powerful, moving, and meaningful.
In other words, like someone said above, adventure is in the eye of the beholder, and to think otherwise means you are dying on the inside
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
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Let's all try to work on reading comprehension. I started the adventure thread NOT to say that my definition of adventure was better than yours. I was railing against companies, both manufacturing and service oriented, using AND diluting the meaning of the word to further their self interests.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
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It's hard for us here to grasp "the laymans" view as most of us are climbers critiquing from a climbers point of view.
Shifting the point of view to that of a the layman, although hard, is interesting. NYT does an excellent job in conveying from a layman's perspective to the layman. Those of us on this forum are decidedly in the minority when reading and critiquing the article. I got much more out of reading the comments below the article, most of which seem to obviously come from non-climbers (my favorite comment being "Depositing oneself for others to clean up after violates the first rule of a wilderness experience: Leave No Trace".
My parents take on the 60 minutes profile was "he's nuts" and wanted to watch for the chance to see if he fell. Much like DMT's earlier post of watching free soloing akin to watching Nascar to see a wreck.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 21, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
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Good points, but maybe you're looking too deep.
Company says, """hmmm, these guys and gals are getting pretty extreme. Is this in line with what we want to promote? We have other athletes, maybe we should cut them loose".
My complaint with Clif would be that their firing seemed pretty blunt. Maybe it had to be. I suppose you wouldn't consider going to Honnald and asking him to please use a rope.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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But that's the irony Crankster....we're picking it apart from the inside..... I guess I'm trying to see it from the outside(most of clifbars clientele?).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
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Scads of lads or scants of ants it only takes one. Off the top of my head I can quickly count five or more solo climbers who have taken the plunge.
--
Over how long a period? And from a set of how many free soloers? There are precious few expert climbers who have not free soled at some level. IF from the hundreds of thousands of these, we only have five people who have perished soloing, over a period of years (decades?), then the odds are favorable that free soling is less risky than NASCAR, big wave surfing, cave diving, BASE jumping, hang gliding, small plane flying and almost any other adventure you can mention.
Fact is, free soling is potentially deadly - as hell. But only one or two experts a year bite it -piddling numbers for a practice experienced by at least half the people on this list - at least at moderate levels.
Not true that free soloing is as dangerous as all that because the people who do it -- even here and there - generally know their limits and are not in a hurry to exceed them. And the notion that free soloers provide a "bad" example for school kids is based on the fiction that they will be encouraged to solo as well, but before they have the judgement to do it with any degree of mastery. Another nothing that is simply not true in any real numbers.
Bottom line - most of the arguments about soloing don't hold water in terms of the fears and doomsday declarations playing out in the real world. It can be deadly, for certain. But so can a lot of other things we humans do.
Now if you were advance the argument against proximity flying, that would be a totally different affair.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
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Largo: most of the arguments about soloing don't hold water in terms of the fears and doomsday declarations playing out in the real world. It can be deadly, for certain. But so can a lot of other things we humans do. Now if you were advance the argument against proximity flying, that would be a totally different affair.
Or driving down a two-lane road at 65 miles an hour against traffic. 3-4 feet the wrong way can mean absolute disaster. Seems very risky. Strange that it doesn’t happen far more often.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
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Over 17 climbers hit the deck this year using ropes.
Not one free soloist fell.
The free soloists ate clif bars.
The guys that hit the deck must of forgot to eat their clif bars ????
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
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Not true that free soloing is as dangerous as all that because the people who do it -- even here and there - generally know their limits and are not in a hurry to exceed them
except for Croft and Honnold, the climbers most closely identified with soloing at a high level (in the modern period) are dead, killed while free soloing. You know who they are.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Nov 21, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
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except for Croft and Honnold, the climbers most closely identified with soloing at a high level (in the modern period) are dead, killed while free soloing. You know who they are.
Dumbest post of the day.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
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except for Croft and Honnold, the climbers most closely identified with soloing at a high level (in the modern period) are dead, killed while free soloing. You know who they are.
What percentage of all free soloers do these few climbers represent? And when Bachard died soloing, he was 52 and suffering from various serious ailments, including an arm that would go dead on him. Of course people have died free soloing. This ain't canasta. But as it is practiced by experts, the ratio of deaths to participants is approaching zero.
Again, what people get confused here is the potential risk as opposed to the participant to accident ratio. Cliff Bar yanked their sponsorship based on the potential risk, not owing to a spate of recent free soloing deaths. Fact.
JL
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
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Thanks HFCS.
Largo don't think I can. I think my "objective" is the same as your "objctive". I wouldn't call it work, but my information bias is that I have an autism spectrum child and a severely ADHD child who I love and admire more than anything in the world, but when their teacher tells me that they're struggling to learn math and English, I sense that that's a valid perspective on reality too. I think that humans' brains work differently, just like our skins do.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
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The so called free soloist uses a rope not visible to the naked material eye.
The free soloist uses the eternal universal umbilical cord that's attached to the anchor of eternity .....
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
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Extreme sport sponsor-rejection is so hot right now!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 21, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
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I'm with Largo on this. Free soloing isn't statistically dangerous. And impressionable teenagers are far too busy texting while driving to be lured into something as safe as free soloing. Anyway, as I said earlier, free soloing is in principle arguably part of many, perhaps most trad climbers days, whether they have a rope on or not, because there are often places where a roped fall would still kill them, and they have to climb exactly as a free soloist does.
I do think that something changes when you earn at least part of your living as a free soloist, bringing camera crews along to record the feat. (And sometimes it is a major production to get camera people in place.) At that point, you become an entertainer, not simply a climber doing their thing, and like it or not, part of the entertainment value of your performance, as it was for the ill-fated and unfortunately-named Flying Wallendas, is the potential for you to die doing it. I don't think there is any way around it; this morbid component is part of the bargain you make with the devil in order to finance the life you want.
I saw a video of Honnold climbing a building somewhere, pulling on potentially crappy bits of facade, every single move exactly the same as the last one. It is hard to imagine how joy, artistry, and freedom of the spirit would have brought him or anyone to that unremarkable exercise on a dull urban street corner. No, he earned some coin for doing it, and that's why he did it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging him or anyone for their choices. It is possible, if unlikely, that one day the devil will show up at the crux, demanding Payment In Full, but hopefully that is not the way it plays out. Even so, there are aspects of the situation that could cause any sponsor to pause and consider whether, for reasons both moral and commercial, they want to be a critical part of this particular form of entertainment.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 22, 2014 - 07:30am PT
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Largo makes a reasoned argument.
So does Clif..
Over a year ago, we started having conversations internally about our concerns with B.A.S.E. jumping, highlining and free-soloing. We concluded that these forms of the sport are pushing boundaries and taking the element of risk to a place where we as a company are no longer willing to go. We understand that some climbers feel these forms of climbing are pushing the sport to new frontiers. But we no longer feel good about benefitting from the amount of risk certain athletes are taking in areas of the sport where there is no margin for error; where there is no safety net.
So, they part ways. I don't see it as a big deal. I've had friends who do all the above risky activities and there is always an internal debate going among friends about the sanity of these activities.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Nov 22, 2014 - 08:31am PT
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Fat Dad already nicely summed up Honnold's article; nothing to add there. I thought I'd mention that I just browsed through the 2011 N.A. accidents report (it was free on line). I counted 4 free soloing accidents (three deaths) and at least one of the people who died apparently had no idea what he was doing. Makes me wonder exactly who Clif Bar is trying to protect? The great majority of rock climbing accidents occured on sport routes or moderate (less than 5.10) trad routes.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:27am PT
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Fat Dad and the rest summed it up nicely from a narrow field of vision. Most of the world sees this very differently. And they're the ones clif bar is accountable to. All the in depth nuance of the soloist is seen very differently.......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 22, 2014 - 10:10am PT
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Robert L. said: Largo: We ought not sight concepts of reliability (consistency) as tantamount to safety.
Safety or "safe" should never be used in reference to adventure sports because the potential for death is always there. But there is some merit in being able to separate out potential danger from the actual, real-world ratio of how many people free solo (read what Dr. Goldstone wrote) and how many die from doing so. Very few. One or two a year - a small number compared to even skiing of SCUBA diving. This does not mean the potential danger approaches zero, rather that experienced climber's judgement is generaly good when their lives are at stake. So it's the accident to participant ration that approaches zero.
As the man said, based on how many people actually die from soloing, you wonder who, exactly, is Cliff Bar trying to protect? My point is in terms of free soling, Cliff Bar is acting soly on the grounds of perceived or potential risk - and that's a slippery slope if you start backing away from that, since ALL adventure sports and most businesses involve risk.
They'll have to change their name to "Sand Bar."
JL
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 22, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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I don't think climbers are their target audience. A tiny segment of their customers will make any connection to the athletes they sponsor or don't. They are, remember, in the business of selling bars, gels and stuff. In the scheme of things, this all really amounts to much ado about nothing. Steph Davis is free to use her wingsuit and Honnald can solo on, unfettered.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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This is interesting. I did some searching regarding Lance Armstrong and Clif Bar and found this. It may go aways to explaining the solo connection with the Yosemite 5.
Clif Bar's Solo Climb;
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2004/12/01/8192527/
Great twist at the end of the piece;
And even if going solo is a tougher game, Erickson sees one advantage that trumps all else. "We'll live with the risk," he says, "because we're having a lot more fun."
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
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Crankster, your one of few continuing to look at the big picture as this thread (and as so many do) wanders out onto a small limb. This is about mass marketing as it pertains to extreme sports. And the masses are the target. We (and I'm as guilty as the next) as climbers are a small microcosim of the self centered and self absorbed and free soloing is an even smaller sub set, when we put our climbing hats on. We should try and see it from the way the public at large views us and the way a company like clif bar weighs their marketing options when dealing with a larger audience that has no idea nor can relate to what Largo is talking about.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 22, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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Largo wrote: "who, exactly, is Cliff Bar trying to protect? My point is in terms of free soling, Cliff Bar is acting soly on the grounds of perceived or potential risk..."
likely true...
but possibly not...
while i can't speak for clif bar, if i was in their position, i wouldn't be worried about protecting the "public" or the "kids".
yet i'd make the same decision... [even though i am a climber and have at points partaken in free soloing...]
i'd make the same decision because i wouldn't want to ever have to contemplate whether [in the event that the unspeakable did happen to a free soloing climber that my business sponsored] my sponsorship was the camel's hair that tipped the knife edge balancing decision away from one based on internal necessity to one based on chasing an extrinsic and ephemeral siren.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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Along the same vein, they may actually be taking a position of not wanting to scare away potential new customer types. After reading the article I posted above it makes me wonder. It mentioned how Power Bar is going after couch potato types so.......They may actually be in the process of homogenizing their brand rather than trying to make a statement about climbing.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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Must just be the ones that can hit the deck then. I was impressed by Lynn Hill in UPRISING saying how freaked she was at what Alex does.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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People should remember that advertising is fundamentally false becuase the reason it exists in the first place is to sell a product. Tank the sales and the manufacturer looks for another advertising campaign. Granted, some manufacturers want to equate their braid with something real, or real people doing real things, but if the public perceivs that they are somehow reckless in their endorcements, are are at least thought to promote and encourage fatal games, then the bottom line will suffer and the games have to go.
A broader question is what Cliff Bar hoped to accomplish by associating so closely with climbing. My sense of it is, because theirs is a game of perceptions and not actual risk analysis (in terms of actual soloing deaths), once perceptions - not reality - were interpreted as being death defying (in the case of Alex's solos), this perception was bad for the brand, and under the false claim of being safe and responsible, they yanked sponsorship. Too extreme.
Red Bull, on the other hand, is clearly not frightened about promoting extreme events, and whatever else you can say about their operations, their approach is bold and in keeping with core adventure values, which have never put currency in playing it safe for all the sane and rational reasons.
JL
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
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Apparently they have a corporate Climbing wall at headquarters. Their view of climbing is probably not quite so extreme so it was easy to fall into that trap.
Largo, I think you mentioned that what gets said at ST would not affect Alex but it just may affect the head of Clif Bar!
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:16pm PT
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And when Bachar died soloing, he was 52 and suffering from various serious ailments, including an arm that would go dead on him. Of course people have died free soloing. This ain't canasta. But as it is practiced by experts . . . (Largo)
How do you think the general public would view this statement? Soloing as an addiction?
Clif bar made a wise decision.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
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Climbers still on the sponsor list...
Chris Sharma
Tommy Caldwell
Kate Rutherford
Mike Libecki
Beth Rodden
Pamela Shanti Pack
Heather Robinson
Mark Synnott
Caroline George
Freddie Robinson
Tony Renaldo
Allie Rainey
Paul Robinson
Heidi Wirtz
Gord McArthur
Looks to me like Clif is still eager to be involved in climbing.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
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People should remember that advertising is fundamentally false becuase the reason it exists in the first place is to sell a product.
You of course mean the part where the product gets associated with a certain activity or personality type, and that if it gets eaten, somebody's life will be changed in a big way? I don't think needing to sell a product implies that a company has to be untruthful about the product itself.
Implying that if you eat a certain food bar you become like Alex Honnold.......That could be a terrifying prospect! (for the person eating the bar)
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
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If sponsors back away from risky behaviors, it may well slowly mold climbing into a safer, more sterile version of what it is today.
I thought climbing today already WAS a safer more sterile version.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
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When things get sterile there will always be people to break away. Clearly Alex and the other climbers and Clif Bar are not a good match, and that says nothing about either side. They need to find where they belong is all.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 22, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
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while rgold and largo have seemingly concluded that the risk of fee soloing death is, as compared to roped rock climbing, insignificant, i remain unconvinced... one way or the other...
a uk stat gives the risk of rock climbing death at 1 in 320000 climbs. [who knows whether they included alpinism, mountaineering, free soloing, etc] but because the free soloing pop is so small it's hard to know exactly how high the relative risk is...
my very rough order of magnitude guess would be that for every unroped fifth class route that is climbed there are maybe 1000 - 10000 roped climbs completed. this would mean that if the quick googling i did was correct and on average there are 25 u.s. rock climbing deaths per year than there should only be between a few and 25 u.s. free soloing deaths in the last 100 years for the risk to be comparable.
I doubt this is true... and so my suspicion is that it is not just the perception of risk that is significantly higher with regards to free soloing... rather it is the actual risk...
barring actual study all of this convo is based on perceptions and educated guesses as the source pop is so small that the extrapolation becomes perspective dependant.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 22, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
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a uk stat gives the risk of rock climbing death at 1 in 320000 climbs. [who knows whether they included alpinism, mountaineering, free soloing, etc] but because the free soloing pop is so small it's hard to know exactly how high the relative risk is...
At least part of the point that Rich G. and have been making is the perception is that free soling is rarely done, when in fact most experienced climbers have and do free solo terrain that a fall would be fatal, but said solos are typically enough below the person's max that falls become improbable, to the point of approaching zero in terms of actual deaths.
Only through interviesing a huge cross section could this ever be substantiated, but how many 5.10 climbers (most active climbers can do some 5.10) have NEVER, say, soloing any 5.6 or 5.7 terrain?
You might be surprised.
JL
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
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Largo, your theory as to marketing perception for me hits the point. We have all been mesmerized by what Honnold in particular has done and how what he has done has gone to mainstream audiences. Obvuiosly marketers want to cash in. But the public or mass perception in the case of free soloing seems much different from the reality. Clifbar is more then likely well aware of the intracacies of free soloing but is also equally aware of how the public percieves it which seems entirely different or enough different that Clifbar no longer wanted to support and further the perception. In an odd way, they may be respecting more of what climbing's really about by firing them instead of fueling a mass perception of what those climbers are in reality.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 23, 2014 - 02:02am PT
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Largo wrote: "Only through interviesing a huge cross section could this ever be substantiated, but how many 5.10 climbers (most active climbers can do some 5.10) have NEVER, say, soloing any 5.6 or 5.7 terrain? "
while i agree with the first part of your sentence, i don't see the relevance, in and of itself, of the question in the second half...
ie. all that matters in determining relative risk are the populations relative time spent doing each activity... not the population size partaking in said activity... [if each year every single active climber free soloed once while doing another 1000 roped climbs, it wouldn't change the fact that free soloing is relatively rare.]
in that sense i don't think i would be surprised, as i agree that many, possibly even most, active climbers do occasionally [both intentionally and sometimes not] enter into the free soloing arena...
my guess would still be that the amount of free soloing that goes on is relatively small [less than 1 in 1000 pitches relative to roped climbing...] and if i had to put money on it, i'd bet that the risk of death per technical free soloed pitch is at least 10X higher than that of the risk per [non-alpine/mountaineering] technical roped rock climbing pitch... [as with all of our speculation, this is ultimately just conjecture based on extrapolation of my personal experiences.]
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Nov 23, 2014 - 03:30am PT
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When I raised the question "who is Clif Bar trying to protect?", to some extent I was expressing my near certainty that Clif Bar's decision will have absolutely no statistically measurable effect on the number of deaths from free soloing in North America. Since the data is readily available, does anyone care to take the bet? We would need to compare data from when Honnold was sponsored to a similar time frame after his sponsorship was canceled. Of course this means we would have to wait a few years for the outcome (I suppose we could also compare the data from the four years before he was hired to the data for the four years he was supported to see if there was an associated increase in free soloing deaths).
Like I mentioned before, the data suggests that the large majority of serious accidents in rock climbing occur to sport climbers and people climbing moderate trad, so this makes me wonder: why isn't it irresponsible for Clif Bar to sponsor climbers at all? Maybe the company is influencing innocent people to go and kill themselves climbing sport routes and moderate trad? Maybe Clif Bar would be "better off" sponsoring golfers and bowlers. Except I don't suppose golfers and bowlers consume much of their product. After all, if people are gonna go out and kill themselves rock climbing, and eat Clif Bars to boot, where's the harm in that!. Then it became more clear to me exactly who Clif Bar is trying to protect.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 23, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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^^Conveniently found on climbers' websites?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 23, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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while i agree with the first part of your sentence, i don't see the relevance, in and of itself, of the question in the second half...
The relevance is that experienced, active climbers solo all the time, not just here and there. Most any climber who is out there all the time knows as much. At least half of the descents out at Joshua Tree involve downclimbing stuff that if you pitched off of would kill you outright or leave bones showing. If you actually tracked the habits of active climbrs, you'd see this to be the case. They might not set out to intentionally free solo this or that route, but watch them on any weekend and you'll see, as Rich G. pointd out, most experts going unroped over "easy" terrain just to save time. The perception is that the harder the terrain is that is soloed, the more the true risk, regardless who is doing the soloing. This is incorrect.
JL
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Nov 23, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
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Soloing 5.12 or sport climbing 5.14 seems impossible to me, but within the abilities of other people. Alex Honnold appears to be solid and in control of what he's doing. Compare this with some of the Mt Everest videos, where the guided clients have no climbing experience at all and can't get down by themselves. Or the dozens of people who died on Thorong La pass in Nepal. That's a trekking route, they were all led into deep snow and got stuck in it, instead of just waiting out the storm in the guesthouse.
Or if you want something really scary, look at some beginner climbing videos about people's first leads at the Gunks. There's one where the leader blindly stuffs a cam into a roof crack, and somehow winds the rope around his leg as he climbs through and the cam rotates up.
I'd compare soloing to olympic figure skating, total concentration and perfection of movement. Climbing Mt Everest with Beck Weathers (star of several Mt Everest disaster videos) would be more like texting and driving.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 23, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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Yanqui: . . . that Clif Bar's decision will have absolutely no statistically measurable effect on the number of deaths from free soloing in North America.
Pardon me . . . I must be immensely naive, but, WHY does this matter?
Do you understand how business works? If you think it’s all about revenues and costs, then you may need some experience in working in business.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Nov 24, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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^^^^^^^
I do believe I've been called out: feigned politness with "Pardon me", rhetorical use of "I must be immensely naive" (because I really don't think you believe that about yourself), expressive use of caps implying that what I wrote doesn't matter (which is likely true) and then a passive-aggressive implication that I'm somehow lacking in both understanding and experience. That's a whole lot of going right at me for such a short post. I must have touched a nerve!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 29, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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I heard the NPR story this morning. Was interesting, they seemed to imply that more sponsors may be backing away from "high risk" sports. I really wish one of the ex-Clif guys would spill the beans about how much compensation they got, but I would imagine there is a non-disclosure provision in their contract.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 29, 2014 - 10:21am PT
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I've also wondered about the problem being exposed by the termination: a lashback by members of the respective sports.
If you figure that touching these athletes results in a contract that cannot easily be terminated, then why would you ever do it?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 29, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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All those people whining about the taste of Clif bars must never have suffered the fracking-fluid aftertaste of Red Bull.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 29, 2014 - 11:40am PT
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to what degree is he deluding himself as we all do, more or less?
I doubt there is too much delusion going on. The state of mind required to do what Alex does leaves no room for delusion. If there is delusion, it may just be in seeing what future pathways it may open up. That's the part where there cannot be much calculation because it's about going into the unknown. Each previously unknown level must become familiar before another presents itself.
If getting dropped by Clif Bar is the worst thing that happens to this group, more power to them!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 29, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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Safety or "safe" should never be used in reference to adventure sports because the potential for death is always there.
I don't get this at all, safety being an integral component of risk calculation. Without it we are lemmings.
--
It's never all or nothing, as the above suggests. The illusion that one can never get hurt climbing if the system is properly set has proven to be a mother's lament on many occasions. Risk management in climbing is a matter or going with the higher odds given the immediate situation. But those odds (or injury) will never be zero, ergo climbing will never be "safe." Strive for security, of course. But if the elimination of risk is your desire, climbing is probably not right for you.
JL
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 29, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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Extreme skiers can be a prime example
Extreme skiers are NOT a good example! Those people are crazy! Besides, you can't ski the same route twice.
I hear you on intuition too. Unfortunately ( or fortunately! ), we are fairly trapped as being just spectators.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 29, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
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Like Largo said, you are not going to eliminate risk. That's why we love and hate this whole thing. Would be a pretty bland world without the risk and reward. We are all one, so as long as it's Alex doing the soloing, I don't need to.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 29, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
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We are focusing in this discussion on risk to CLIMBERS, but that is not actually the risk involved----which is risk to a COMPANY.
marketing is a realm unto itself...with calculations the same.
Virtually always, the arithmetic is how much can you sell, for how much you spend.
Add in factors for good press and bad press because of your spending.
....good and bad for the actions of your representatives.
What might have been good in one time frame, may be terrible in another time frame.....or political climate.....or climate. Who knows.
But people get paid to make this exact sort of calculation.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 19, 2015 - 08:01am PT
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Umm .. Well .. Hmm .. :-(
Be careful people we love you.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 19, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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My son just gave me that very rope 2 days ago with a speach about how much he loves me blah blah. 9.8 x 70M Maxim glider bi-color dry rope. (but it's marked 9.9 on the rope, not 9.8 hmmm) Until I get it out it's the prettiest rope I own. Not only that, but I learned here that I'M NOW POLITICALLY CORRECT BIZCHES! WOOT!
"A portion of proceeds will go to the Alex Honnold Foundation, which seeks simple, sustainable ways to improve lives worldwide"
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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May 19, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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Hmmm what? Potter went out with honor. He rolled the dice a lot of times, eventually everyone gets snake eyes.
Clif bar are still dooshes, moreso than ever IMO
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 19, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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It's not about him Patrick, it's about us and and where and why and what we train our brains to glorify. For me, I need to not train my brain to glorify the inevitability of rolling snake eyes - my kids still need me. I can use all the help Clif bar can give me doing that. But that's cool for those who choose otherwise. Please just keep it in mind - we'll miss you :-(
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yosguns
climber
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Mar 15, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
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Clif is sponsoring a Sunday pool party at Coachella. When I saw this, it made sense to me that they pulled the sponsorships they did in 2014. They're appealing to a much larger, less elite portion of the population. I wonder what the first Clif ad on major network primetime TV will look like. Has there been one already? Maybe it'll be like that Citibank commercial with Honnold in it. Oh wait...
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