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CCT
Trad climber
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Oct 28, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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I like the idea. I don't climb in the Gorge often, but would be happy to contribute when I do. Would it be possible to "buy" a biner at the store, and leave it there for a local who is doing replacements? As a non-local, my odds of randomly hopping on a climb that needs replacement is pretty low, but I really appreciate simple anchors when I come to them. And I don't need any steel biners on my rack, commemorative or not.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Oct 29, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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I climb in the gorge a lot and haven't seen mussy's worn through even close to half way, and I only get on 4 star routes or better. . .but rarely get on anything easier than 5.9.
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cragrat
climber
New Zealand
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From my experience a set up like Fixe originally came out with which had a bolt with a ring on it backed up to another hanger by chain is very good from a wear perspective. As Erik mentioned the rings roll around so for a while at least wear is spread. It has it's problems but it seems a big issue you have is the "clip and lower" mentality.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I climb in the gorge a lot and haven't seen mussy's worn through even close to half way, and I only get on 4 star routes or better. . .but rarely get on anything easier than 5.9. Easy routes see the most wear, but the worst area of all is All You Can Eat, short easy routes partway down the North Gorge trail, the dust is extra dusty there and Mussy hooks wore halfway through in about 1.5-2 years.
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Old5Ten
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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I think there's a bit too much focus on the technical side of things, for something that is, for the most part, a behavioral problem.
We know that a good solution would be for climbers to use their own draws for TR sessions.
In the same breath we're assuming that can't be done because of low compliance, but imho there's never been a real concerted effort to change that. If we think a little outside the technical box we should recognize that there are many opportunities for outreach efforts:
 what if Marty, et al. put something in the next edition of the guide? Not just a bold single page ad style notice near the front of the book, but a 'branded' symbol next to each climb? the same thing could be advocated for other guide books.
what if employees at Eastside Sports and Mammoth Mountaineering spread the word every time they talk with someone about climbing in the Gorge?
what if the same happens in shops in LA and the Bay Area (not that there's all that much left)?
how about a campaign at gyms in LA and the Bay Area, emails to membership, permanent posters?
what if climbing schools and friends specifically taught and encouraged their students to set up their own draws for TR sessions.
ranger style coffee talks in the gorge on busy weekends?
see someone TR on a fixed anchor? Talk to them. Plant that seed. It doesn't have to be confrontational.
'DO NOT TOPROPE' dog tags on anchors? Associate them with a pledge, sell them cheaply at a shop, have climbers install them, give recognition for installing, etc.
what about a little speech before every climbing related event in Bishop, LA, Bay Area, etc.? Throw in some worn mussy hooks, talk about how there are a bunch of people out there volunteering their time and money so the rest of us can have fun.
ASCA fundraiser at PG in SF - give a little talk.
Fall Highball, Banff, Reel Rock, little slide shows and fund raisers etc. are all opportunities to spread the word.
design a 'do not TR off fixed anchors' logo and put that thing prominently on every single climbing website on the planet!
There are so many things that could be done with focused outreach and many of them don't take a whole lot of effort, time, or money.
Mindsets aren't changed overnight and full compliance is utopia for most things, but with a concerted and longterm effort some pretty amazing things can be achieved and if we can extend anchor life by 100, 200, or more percent then we've taken a big step in the right direction.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I don't want Owens to change from open anchors.
Super convenient. The price is increased maintenance.
Although based on other areas, even if we swapped to all chains/rings, enough people TR through them anyway that the current Musdy hooks probably last a lot longer than rings would. It's the fine volcanic grit attracted to the rope by static electricity.
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thirsty
climber
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Well, I for one can’t think of anything more tedious than trying to raise peoples’ awareness about anchor wear by talking about it constantly. Its not that big a deal. Its not that interesting and I would rather stare off into space than “educate” someone or listen to someone else educating others about worn hardware.
As I see it, anyone who equips a route has more than done their part if they leave it with chains attached to bolts with quick links. As explained, they are easy to replace / cut when worn and only dangerous or difficult to use for people who shouldn’t be climbing anyway. Where I appreciate quick lower set ups with steel biners or muzzy hooks is at the local crags I can get to for a few pitches if I sneak out of work at 3:00. Those set ups mean people take a little less time on each pitch and I am less likely to have to wait around to get on something. I like this so much that I buy and install such gear myself on those routes. As long as such installations are being paid for by people like myself with a personal interest in keeping traffic moving on certain routes, why does anyone care so much that they are abused and wear out? Once something gets worn to the point of being dangerous it should be removed and the chain left for the lower/rap. If eventually someone gets anxious about the time its taking for parties to move through routes with the chains, that someone will add some new easily clip-able hardware if they really care. If they don’t the chains remain and are adequate. When I leave something easy to clip on a route I don’t expect it to last forever. I just hope it will last as long as does my interest in doing the route frequently. Adding that hardware isn’t like placing bolts and creating routes which requires a lot more consideration and planning.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Couple of photo's from a previous ORG thread...
Pulley idear is interesting...
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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This would be considered a bomber anchor in Spain.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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^^^Bomber until a rope in the ORG is pulled thru a few times...
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JimT
climber
Munich
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It´s Italian.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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A replaceable version of the above anchor is what I think works best long term. Jim T had some vertical anchor pictures that made me think about what works best. Mussy's are by far the longest wearing IMO. One issue with horizontal rigs is that the you wear out TWO hooks and because of the angles the rope runs the wear can create edges faster. I always like the idea of a vertical french setup. Top Bolt has a Mussy and QL for wear and easy of replacement. Lower, inline bolt has a captive pin steel biner. Basically a single point lower with backup. Wear is completely on the upper piece so you're only looking at $3 every now and then. About as good as you can ask for IMO.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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It seems you dudes are so into convenience climbing whereass Abel Gable and I, to a lesser extent, frown on such convenience stations. Get a clue, the only good way to lengthening anything's life is to use something else.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aren't people using their own carbines for the anchors?
I always thought the idea was to leave no trace?
To me, this always included the limited use of the anchor set up, with regards to rope wear.
I mean... I always thought to use my own draws for my anchor was the way to go. I bought the draws easy enough. I never wanted to have to replace an anchor that I had used myself. (Though, I have donated to a fund here and there for anchor replacements)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Do anyone bolt cracks so as to prevent a gear placement?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Most sport anchors are retired jocks or wannabees who make endless inane comments during a game.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Those sport anchors do make a good living, Donini.
Dingus McGee has in the past described hard facing on rap anchors. Hard facing is a welding technique that prolongs the life of plows and such things. An extra hard metal is arc welded onto the wear surface of your tool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardfacing Might be as or more expensive in some ways than just replacing the part, if you pay a welder. If you are a welder anyway, might just take a minute per part.
One thing missing in this discussion is documentation in the form of photos and such. Take regular photos of the anchors and use the photo date stamps to document the wear over time of each type of proposed anchor. Good documentation will make it much easier to see which solution works the best.
I like aspects of your original idea, TV, and encourage you to try it on a few routes. See if steel anchor carabiners are stolen. See if they wear slower or faster than the mussy hooks. It is not a terribly expensive experiment.
I also like old5ten's suggestion about education, but caution that it is easy to waste lots of energy on pseudo education that has no affect but annoyance.
I have not climbed at Owen's myself, but have many friends at my local gym that do. I will interrogate them as to their practices and experiment with them on some alternate practices and training techniques.
Will report back with photos.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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The anchor setup described in the OP is exactly what is in use at Trout Creek, and with great success. But somehow I don't think it would work out quite as well in the junk show which is the ORG. I could see a lot of idiots ganking biners off the anchors of the easy routes, and leaving them scattered across the harder routes as bail biners. But hey it's not stealing if you just "relocated" it to the 3rd clip of the next route over!
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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Nov 12, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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as ruppell says,high grade steel chain is the bang for the buck,so incorporating it into the system is the next step,,theres crazy hard stuff out there,and chain is one of them
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Tomad
Trad climber
Ellettsville IN
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Nov 19, 2014 - 06:36am PT
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Why are people top roping and lowering off of the fixed gear? Is it just laziness, I mean sure it's convenient to just go up slap the rope in and lower off. But this isn't the gym it's the real world and therefore sh*t can happen and when it does it can be deadly. We need to take more time in teaching the new climbers (and some "older" climbers)not to ruin the fixed gear by lowering or top roping through it, but instead attaching their our carabiners and webbing for top roping and cleaning the route by rappel instead of lowering through the fixed gear. I know this means more work to finish the route, but ultimately the fixed gear will last longer.
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