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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Oct 25, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
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I have wondered the same thing Brian
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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The solution to this high grit, high friction wear problem is to introduce an aluminum clip through pulley insert into the mix. The same sort of insert that folks used to use made of plastic for crevasse rescue work but made out of metal.
This would still require a flat-ended, pearabiner style steel carabiner or big quicklink to allow the pulley insert to rotate easily without binding.
This would solve the basic rope on steel wear problem but also decreases the amount of effective drag provided by the top anchor since you are belaying through a pair of pulleys.
You still have the theft issue but the pulley inserts don't really have any appeal to steal them. If folks are willing to keep the wear on the top anchors to a minimum by putting the wear on their own draws before using the fixed anchors for exiting then this solution would have a reasonable service life.
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tv
climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
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I've thought about the same solution. I think the issue of reduced friction would be an issue - it would mean for most belayers a re-learning of how to lower, in essence, since the lowerer would now be dealing with the additional (roughly) 40% of the force formerly taken by the anchor. I would expect some belay failure accidents or near misses... However, thinking outside the box, as I think we should be for a long term solution to a sustainable and easy to maintain anchor, this makes a lot of sense.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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For high use anchors like those in the Owens I can't stress enough that folks need to help out by putting wear on their own gear and impacting the anchors only at the end of their use. Lazy habits just create more wear, work and expense for everyone involved.
Only the last climber lowered would be affected by the lower drag situation if everyone climbs smart.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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I have replaced quite a few anchors in my time, and I always thought that the welded-ring set-up was one of the best, because:
A. the ring rotation (as I mentioned) doesn't wear in the same place,
B. one can thread a loop of rope through and tie a figure-8 on a bight before untying (for lowering), so the belay is never off, and
C. It generally gets less wear because it provides less incentive to just clip through the anchors, since one has to re-thread and leaders generally just want to lower and let the second deal with the cleaning.
Although I have never see the set-up, I always thought the ideal anchor would be the welded-ring on a quick-link, so the bolt didn't need to be messed with. I have even thought about cutting the bolt on a horizontal Fixe hanger, adding a quick-link and putting the set-up back on a vertical hanger in high-use areas to make the change-out quicker.
If anyone has seen the pre-made set-up, or knows where to buy just the welded rings, this might be a good solution.
Additionally, grade 8 steel lasts significantly longer - a grade 8 Mussy hook would be another good solution for high-use/volcanic dust areas.
Erik
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 25, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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RE: hard coating surface layers.
I remember some years back when BD used a thicker anodize coating on Aluminum figure 8. Once the anodize layer wore through in one spot, it created a small edge that would likely increase abrasion wear on a rope.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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People will TR off of ANY clip in style anchor. Be it Mussy or Biner. Bring the chains. Just the chains. Let people leave their own gear for TR'ing. If you set up the tr and have a second whose incapable of re threading do it for them.
Anchor in.
Rethread the bottom link of chain.
Retie.
Place two of YOUR OWN biners on the hanger or first link of chain.
Lower.
Your biners are taking close to all of the force.
The second follows the route and cleans your biners. Their already set to lower off the chains.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
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My observation and experience with steel rings doesn't match yours MisterE.
A little wear and the ring doesn't rotate freely anymore and starts to wear top and bottom.
Much bigger diameter rings would be an option and so is beefier chain sections. Unfortunately you lose every other link if you start cutting chain to make single links.
Ruppel- Perhaps a triangular shaped heavy quicklink and pulley wheel is the ticket as I agree with your assessment on use.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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A pair of quick links on the bolt hangers seems most sensible to me. They are easy to replace when worn.
However, this simple low cost common sense solution will be shout down then all the quick links stolen and replaced with more complicate odd ball set-ups.
(has happened to me)
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
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Steve
Why even bother to make it more complicated? Chains and how to use them for lowering, rapping, or TR'ing should be the most basic of concepts for a lead climber. Right after the first tenant: Don't die. It's just a huge pile of crap to have to think of catering to the idiots. Figure it out or don't. Become the first tenant.
Am I the only person ever to read the fine print of any climbing gear, how to book, or guide book?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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this is the best system INMOP. simple, bombproof and lots of places to clip in when 3 people at a belay. In super high use areas use a 1/2 or 5/8ths" link on the rope end.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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It all works...the question at hand is service life.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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hello Steve not to crash a sport climbing thread I so wish it was not necessary
but every one who cares for what type of anchors
needs to go to the TODD SKINNER thread and post up what was your hardest send
A daughter of the first order of stars of sport climbing should know what clipping bolts means to you
She has sweetly asked have you responded? go and say eight words
TODD WAS A GREAT MAN WHO I ADMIRE. that is not a hard Clip to make so before you forget three or four words please is there a T Skinner route that you have done that is a good place to start
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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Two completely separate threads so what is your point here?
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
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Although I have never see the set-up, I always thought the ideal anchor would be the welded-ring on a quick-link, so the bolt didn't need to be messed with...
If anyone has seen the pre-made set-up, or knows where to buy just the welded rings, this might be a good solution.
You will see this setup on some of the newer multi-pitch routes in Pine Creek. Typically, the first and last anchors will have mussy's to facilitate lowering, but the middle pitch anchors will be set with rings since they are cheaper than mussys, they last longer, and you'll be rapping at that point anyway.
The other place you'll see them is on long single pitch routes that require belaying at the top, since they are too long to lower to the ground or a mid anchor.
We sell both plated and stainless welded rings at Eastside Sports.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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That's a 10-4 on the 1096 MisterE.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
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Roger that.
Suspect last scene leaving this supertaco post.
Trying to generate revenue with "stamped" biners.
Sounds like climbers are cows now?
Bring the chains?
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AlanDoak
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 28, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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A pulley sheave, is an interesting idea. The Petzl Ultralegere Pulley being an obvious example, or maybe a bucket full of replaceable teflon sheaves. I dunno, I wonder how long they would last.
Some people were concerned about the reduced friction, but, if my belayer can't handle the reduced friction while lowering me, I wouldn't trust them to lead belay me on my project in the first place.
Regarding minimum distance between bolts, it's similar to using a plug and feather to split blocks. The micro-cracks can link up between the 2 bolts, leading to compromised rock.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Oct 28, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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Great thread, but also kind of a bummer as there as so many solutions and even more opinions on what people prefer, so how does one choose?
For what it's worth, I don't care what kind of anchors are waiting for me at the top of a sport climb as long as they are there and safe..with that, getting down is easy.
If I was going to solve this problem, I would prioritize what you are looking to achieve. Which is the most important to ORV:
Initial costs?
Expected life?
Consistency with tradition?
Theft prevention?
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