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sDawg
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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Hm. A lot of good thoughts and kudos to everyone who is concerned about the safety of climbers too lazy/cheap to use their own biners for toproping.
I agree that if the bottom link were not clip-able, people would be more inclined to use their own draws for long TR sessions and then use the chains only for a final rappel.
While I actually don't think many will deliberately steal the biners, I do think you may overestimate our community-average reading level. Visitors will miss the signs and think the biners are booty and take them. I don't know how often, but probably faster than anything wears through.
Perhaps the solution is to have the entire chain be replaceable and for it to clip into the bolt and have a ring at the bottom (made from the same "wears 5x slower" steel as these magic biners?). It looks more like a rappel-only anchor and not like something someone left (which would be OK to booty). Taking it would also force you to rappel on the bolts. Maybe that's worse if people actually do it and wear down the bolts, but hopefully most are smart enough not to. It's a lot to replace, but there could be a recycling policy. You buy the entire chain for $30 and bring the one you replaced back for $20 back. The store puts a new ring on the bottom and resells it. If you take one out and don't need to replace any anchors, bring the whole thing back for a refund.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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Here's what I've taken to doing at the crag in my front yard, a 75' high former sandstone quarry that was blasted for rubble. The routine is to go ahead and TR through the captive stainless carabiners, and we haven't had any issues. On the otherhand, there just isn't that much traffic, there's an owner paying attention, and the ground is relatively clean so very little grit gets picked up. Can't say I'd necessarily install it anywhere, but at least the captive eye means its not casually pilferable.
Edited to add: After watching a couple people fumble around on the standard set up to rap, I decided to simplify with the clips where we used to just have chain. I could go my whole life without having someone die on my cliff.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
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sDawg, that's not a bad idea at all, I'd never even thought of an entire chain clipped into the bolt with a steel biner! As long as the steel biner is captive to the chain, no one would go stealing a big heavy chain. On the other hand, expecting people to carry a few big heavy chains for replacement might be asking a bit much!
A mussy and an adjustable wrench still seem pretty easy and somewhat lightweight…at least compared to a chain!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
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Like Greg said, you have to first decide between:
1. Closed ring/chain
or
2. Open clippable (Mussy hook, biner)
You can't compare 1 with 2, especially if 2 is the standard.
One way to make a regular steel biner more difficult to steal would
be to wrap tape around it -
on both sides of the chain it clips, thick enough that
the tape won't pass through the chain.
(Obviously you can't pretape both sides).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 24, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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I always go with the construction industry specs over climber wild ass guess phobias. the manufacturers instalation specs are designed to meet ICC and ESR requirements. the sh#t is made to keep buildings from falling down. read the specs on any bolts that you are installing for life support. some like the rawl power wedge are not even rated for stone yet were recomended to me by route developers from NRG and are also sold on rapbolting.com as climbing anchors. I have had several loosen up and heard of other cases where they loosened up and failed. Use the correct products rated for both stone and concrete. Placeing the bolts farther apart puts more stress on the bolts due to the sharper angle.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 24, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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Best method is to use 5/16th quick link on the hanger and 1/2in quick link on the rope end. Mussy hooks teach people to be stupid and complacent.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 25, 2014 - 04:43am PT
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Small hose gear clamps are the answer to reduce theft.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 25, 2014 - 05:06am PT
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I would wrap that sharp thing with tape...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 25, 2014 - 06:31am PT
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sharp?? My Ass.
you fall down
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:59am PT
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Two things I found to be an absolute truth with anchors. 1) If it is easy to clip into (mussy or fixed carabiner) people WILL TR directly off the anchor and wear it out quickly. and 2) any loose biner hanging on a chain that is not welded on there, WILL get stolen. 100% of the time. You can zip tie or band them to slow it down... they will just bring tools next time.
Like some others, I'm not a fan of either. Welded rap ring or large quicklink on a chain is best since it rotates, doesn't wear out easily and forces people to clip their own gear into the anchor to TR. Welded rap rings are the only thing E and I use on our routes.
Owens already has a tradition with the Mussy hooks, so the easiest solution there is to just replace them with new ones. Like someone said, changing them out to a new system (if you aren't the FA) would probably just piss people off.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:23am PT
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I always liked Cold Shuts with a biner or Mussy in the middle. Even at McMaster Carr (which is expensive) 1/2" cold shuts are $1.20. I bet if we looked around and bought them in quantity we could get them for much less than a buck. Cold Shuts wear out fast but they are easy to replace. They are very fast to clip into. Even when they are worn you have the biner/mussy as a back up and, if placed properly (at the same level as the Cold Shuts) it will never wear. This probably wouldn't be the best solution for high use climbs (Probably 3 Mussy's would be best for Gorgeous etc) but for many of the routes at Owens etc the cold shuts would last for years.
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:30am PT
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Just put a steel quicklink at the bottom of the chain-cheaper than a 'biner and long lasting and easy to exchange when they wear out.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:41am PT
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Just put a steel quicklink at the bottom of the chain-cheaper than a 'biner and long lasting and easy to exchange when they wear out.
Magic Ed: This doesn't solve the problem of being easy to clip, which I think is essential.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:44am PT
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Cold Shuts wear out fast but they are easy to replace.
I would disagree with this statement. Bolts often corrode, get dirt in them, or cause the rock to "hole-out" around the end during removal - making them spinners and hard to remove for cold-shut replacement.
(Edit: volcanic rock/ORG specific)
This is also true with replacing the Fixe rap rings, though as mentioned, they last longer due to the rotating wear points.
The best solution is one where you don't have to mess with the bolt at all.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:48am PT
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Agreed leaving the bolt alone and making any replacements from the bolt hanger side would be the way to go. Just leave the mussies be and replace when needed. Has anyone tried to find a higher grade mussy?
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:11am PT
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We need to think "out of the box". One of the challenges is to come up with something that is easy to clip and wears very slowly. The following addresses both these issues but is stupid for a number of reasons. I just put it out there to encourage creativity. Drill two 3/4 inch diameter holes in the rock that are in the same vertical plane and slanted down a bit. Buy a 3/4 inch metal rod and cut it into 3" lengths and pound them into the hole. Of course, put a Mussy between them to back up the rods and to keep the rope from coming off the ends of the rods.
1) It is easy to clip.
2) It is easy to replace (just pull out the rods and put new ones in)
3) It has little visual impact.
4) It would last a long time. (3/4" of steel is a lot of meat)
5) It is cheap (The steel would cost 30 cents for each 3" rod).
6) It is easy to install (with a Bosch and a 3/4 inch drill bit)
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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MisterE: How do you quote someone, when you reply, like you did with my post?
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:19am PT
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How do you quote someone
Like that?
Copy the text you want to quote. Choose the " marks in the reply box. Paste the copied text.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Oct 25, 2014 - 11:06am PT
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I would disagree with this statement. Bolts often corrode, get dirt in them, or cause the rock to "hole-out" around the end during removal - making them spinners and hard to remove for cold-shut replacement.
You make some good points. I believe Stainless steel bolts should be used at all times which will help with the corrosion and a stud rather than a bolt will help with "hole-out" problem
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