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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 24, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
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Hi all,
Got a sport anchor concept and would appreciate feedback.
Background:
In the early days of the Owens Gorge (near Bishop, California) we discovered that cold shuts wore really quickly and were far from the ideal anchoring solution.
As most sport climbers know, the Mussy hook seems to have come into common use in the Gorge, and elsewhere, but is also not idea. Often people place their bolts too close together to facilitate use of the hooks, an inherently weak set up from a bolt mechanics standpoint. The hooks require a wrench to replace, and a heavy hook. They wear quickly on popular routes. They are more expensive than steel carabiners. Anchor maintenance in the Gorge continues to be an ongoing problem. I seldom climb down there without finding at least one anchor that is unsafe. The costs for maintaining anchors have been borne largely by a small group of altruistic locals. I believe there is a better way.
Back in the early days of the Gorge I promoted an idea of having the sport anchor be, in sequence, 1. a made for climbing bolt attached to a 2. made for climbing hanger to which a 3. 3/8 lap link or quick link attaches to 5 links of 3/8” chain which ends at a STEEL oval carabiner. Like in the photo below, but ending with a steel ‘biner, not a ring. I still feel this is the best way to go and am in a position to help make it happen, but would like feedback prior to ordering 500 carabiners!
The idea is Eastside Sports, the local climbing shop, would buy a seed order of 500 steel, black anodized carabiners, stamped “Owens Gorge” (just to further entice people to buy commemorative Gorge carabiners and in so doing further contribute to the anchor maintenance fund) and have them for sale in the store. The guys at Climb Tech tell me that their steel carabiners last about 5x longer than Mussy hooks in the Gorge, true or not I don't know. Anyway, the idea is anyone who has a carabiner could, without any tools, replace one that they find too worn for comfort. All proceeds from the sale of the carabiners would go into an anchor maintenance fund to be maintained by the store and which would be made available to anyone wanting to replace anchors here. As far as use of the fund, I’d probably create a simple proposal form for would be anchor maintainers to complete and I'd be the manager of the program. But the steel carabiners would be available to anyone for retail purchase. The store would fund the initial purchase of 500 carabiners and requisite chain.
Benefits:
1. Anyone can replace the anchor, cheaply, quickly, and without tools
2. Much easier to share in the cost of anchor maintenance.
3. A fund is built that contributes to other anchor maintenance needs (like the chain and quicklinks needed to implement the system).
4. Eventually this becomes completely funded by the climbing community - anyone who buys a (commemorative Gorge) ‘biner.
5. The program can be extended to other Eastside climbing areas.
One worry is theft from an anchor. Likely some of that would happen. But I’m willing to bet that as the system becomes more wide spread that we don’t see much theft. And who wants a steel carabiner, anyway? But if someone really has to have their own Gorge commemorative carabiner they can go and purchase one and contribute to anchor maintenance in the Gorge.
Plastic laminated signs would be placed in the store and at the trailheads and down in the Gorge and elsewhere promoting the idea. In the store we’d have a prominent display, encouraging climbers to contribute to route maintenance in the Gorge by purchasing the Gorge commemorative carabiner.
I kinda agree with this guy’s assessment:
http://upskillclimbing.blogspot.com/2013/11/climbing-anchors-ideal-sport-route.html
(Edit to give the photo credit to upskillclimbing.blogspot.com)
of the state of sport anchors and am surprised that no one is doing what I propose.
Feedback, questions and suggestions appreciated!
(Another edit to clarify that Chris at Climbtech actually said (perhaps slight paraphrase, because I don't remember his exact words) that so and so in Bishop had done a lot of anchor replacement in the Gorge and had used some of CT's steel carabiners and thought that they might be lasting five times as long as the mussys.) So and so may be using the 'biners in use that is different than at an anchor, I don't know. I'll try and track him down.
Todd Vogel
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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are these steel guys twistgate, screwgate, non-locking?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
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stamped “Owens Gorge” (just to further entice people to buy commemorative Gorge carabiners
why would someone buy one when there are free ones being "given away" at the crag. Seriously, I would not expect biners to last very long. What is so difficult about clipping ones own biners to a chain?
I thought the advantage of the quick-link was the fact that it required some work to remove it?
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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CA.timothy: my concept is for just a regular (steel) non locking oval. Mussy hooks aren't locking, and "shuts" that everyone used to love don't even have a gate!
Jon Beck: the problem with chain is bozos will top rope through it and wear out that bottom link. When that happens the link can either be cut off with a hack saw (real pain in the ***), or the entire link of chain gets replaced, which means unscrewing the quick link (or removing the lap link)... you need chain and potentially tools to do that. In sport areas leaving chain just doesn't work, imo, just due to fast wear issues. Even if it's slow wear eventually it wears out and needs maintenance. Though personally I agree with you... is it really so hard to use your own 'biner?
Many of the routes down there already have steel Mussy Hooks. They wear fairly well, but on the busy routes they can wear to 1/2 thick in a matter of weeks. Steel carabiners would do at least as well (or better if climb tech is to be believed.) Time will tell.
I think it would be fairly straightforward - and important data to the question - to do a climb tech steel biner vs. mussy wear test. For speed's sake we could use a wet rope, dirtied with Gorge pumice soil.
Thanks for the comments.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
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A reasonable idea.
The guys at Climb Tech tell me that their steel carabiners last about 5x longer than Mussy hooks in the Gorge, true or not I don't know. Can you find out more about this?
It seems important to the frequency of maintenance.
The Mussy hooks are a lot thicker than a standard steel biner.
They could be a different alloy, though.
Often people place their bolts too close together to facilitate use of the hooks, an inherently weak set up from a bolt mechanics standpoint. I'm not sure I understand this. Bolts close together reduces friction when lowering. I suppose if the rock quality is suspect, a shorter distance between the holes might weaken each other (not a problem in good granite; can be a problem in concrete).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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It's a good idea in theory, but it won't work for 2 main reasons:
1) a LOT of jerks will steal the biners and rap off the chains,
2) the biners will wear quickly, regardless of what Climbtech says. Everything's been tried down there. NOTHING can stand up to fine volcanic grit, attracted to the rope by static electricity, and ground through the anchors. You are basically running a big soft rattail file through the anchor everytime you lower. Volume of metal - aka Mussy hooks - is the only solution. In Owens even they need replacement frequently, while in other areas they would last a lifetime.
Mussy hooks require only an adjustable wrench and a new Mussy hook. The weight, size, and lack of usefulness/attractiveness of a Mussy hook, plus the wrench, keeps theft to a minimum.
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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Bolt mechanics: Bolts need to be a minimum of 10 diameters of the bolt apart (Rawl catalogue). I would assume more is better from a strength of the placement standpoint, and overlapping areas of force from the bolt, but that's outside my area of expertise... Sometimes Mussys are placed less than that, for the reason you state - minimizes friction, but weakens the bolt. I'm not sure if the medium (concrete v rock) actually matters. The Rawl catalogue specifies this for three different grades of concrete, implying that the density actually does not matter. I'll see if I can track down my old Rawl catalogue and find more. However this is an (interesting) tangent to the question.
Clint Cummins, Greg B (good to hear from you, thanks!):
Here's a test idea: I'll rig Gorgeous (one of the busiest routes in the north end of the Gorge. Mussy life span there: six weeks in the busy season). With one Mussy and one steel Climbtech.(There's a third bolt there but it doesn't get load.) I'll come back in two weeks and compare. Perhaps I'll leave a count board at the base so people could note the number of full weight lowers on the anchor in that period of time. Half way through the test I'll switch places with each, climb tech 'biner for mussy.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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Ten diameters - the concrete standard - is not very far at all, 3.75" for 3/8" bolts, 5" for 1/2" bolts - both of those are super close in the view of most climbers!
Todd, better to have both the same at each anchor to reduce funky effects like the Mussy taking most of the friction. Do two of each on a couple high traffic anchors for a certain time period, then reverse - try to pick generally high use season.
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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Agreed on both counts. I'd much rather see bolts pretty far apart, I like the look of an anchor where you can tell the bolts don't share the local strata of the rock, for one thing.
Excellent idea on the testing.
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crackfiend
climber
Springdale, Utah
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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I like the idea of the mussy hook and or fixed carabiner for ease of clipping and not needing to untie and thread the anchor. Have you though of using this type of carabiner attached with a quick link? it has the conviencace of the mussey hooks, durability of steel, replaceable, and takes enough effort to remove that people wont be as likely to take them
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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I like that idea a lot. I already purchased some steel biners for exactly that purpose to use at a different area. There are plenty of areas where there shouldn't be any theft of gear from the anchors. I think the Gorge would be one of them. The ease of maintenance definitely makes this a good solution and Climb Tech biners are the cheapest steel ones that you can get. Tom is using them in the Lost World for exactly that purpose and Tioga cliff is also set up with them thanks to McTwisted.
The biners that require an allen wrench are great in the sense that they don't twist around, but some of them don't accept a beefy chain (for example the Camp carabiner). They are also more then x2 more expensive compared to Climb Tech ovals.
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tv
climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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I think this is mainly gonna come down to the carabiner vs. mussy wear testing. I don't mind throwing some money at carabiners that might get stolen, I just want a solution that can be crowd funded (eventually) and which enables anyone to 'fix' an anchor when the need arises. Perhaps mussys are the best approach, but as far as I know we haven't tested steel 'biners for this purpose in the Gorge. I like the look of that one which requires the allen key, need to check on price dif. Those Climbtech ones will be pretty inexpensive in lots of 500.
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Impaler
Social climber
Oakland
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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The Trango ones are the cheapest that require a pin (no threads on the pin, though) at $6.55. The ones with threads are usually $11 to $13. Compare that with $5.95 for the climb tech oval.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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I like the anchors that Mr. Ayers has been using in Chochese (sp?)...
Its one regular hanger, with about 10 inches of chain and a Rap hanger even with the end of the chain. If you try to lower your rope gets a ton of friction and rolls and twists up a lot. (wish I had a photo)
The best thing.... you can't lower from them at all, or top rope. You must slap on your own biners.
Last climber must rap.
But I do like the idea of a donation fund for the ORG. Heck the first time I walked down, then up, the new trail to the central gorge, I was so happy I wanted to fork over a $100 to the great folks who made that happen.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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I'm not sure if the medium (concrete v rock) actually matters. The Rawl catalogue specifies this for three different grades of concrete, implying that the density actually does not matter. I'll see if I can track down my old Rawl catalogue and find more.
The medium does matter. The strength of the rock determines the strength of the anchor placement for the weaker rocks (sandstone, etc.). In really strong rock like granite, the anchor itself will fail before the rock blows.
I've posted the diagram below on a previous thread. The strength of any single anchor is based on the mechanical properties of the metal anchor itself (easy to determine) as well as the strength of the shear cone produced when the anchor tries to pull out of the rock. The listed strength is the lower of the two values. There are other factors such as edge distance, localized crushing, thickness of substrate, etc. but for most rock climbing applications the mechanical strength and shear cone will govern.
Rawl gives different strength values for different concrete strengths, so engineers can specify type/size/quantity of anchors/studs based on what kind of concrete they will be used in. If you are anchoring to higher strength (6,000+ psi) concrete you can use smaller/shallower/fewer anchors. If you are anchoring to low budget 2,000 psi sidewalk concrete, then you'll need to use bigger/deeper/more to develop the same anchor strength.
In other words 5" of spacing is plenty good for solid rock 3/8" dia anchors. If the rock is fractured or at all suspect, then they should be spaced more or be located away from the fracturing or weak rock. I like to place them at about 6" in good rock. You could place them at 4", but it just doesn't look right...
I think the steel carabiners will disappear. Too much like real booty.
I have access to hundreds of feet of retired steel chain from precast rigging/hoisting operations. Thicknesses of 3/8" to 5/8", strengths of 20,000 lbs to 60,000 lbs per link. Plenty good for rapping... You simply attach a single link to a quicklink and then attach the quicklink to the bolt or chain. When the link wears out, you just swap it out for another. Maybe leave a pile of links at the local climbing shop? There is some work in cutting every other link off the chain, but it goes real quick if you have a rebar cutter or quality grinder with a zip wheel. PM me if you are interested in some free chain.
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tv
climber
Bishop, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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Great info, thanks so much for posting it. Will pm re chain, I kinda like that idea, actually, though not quite as glam as a commemorative 'biner!
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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the problem with chain is bozos will top rope through it and wear out that bottom link
I figure that's probably even more of a problem with pre-plumbed hooks or 'biners where they can just clip into them instead of having to weigh building a TR anchor (that they can then just clip into and be lowered) vs. having to untie and then thread half the rope through chain links.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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Loose the Mussy and the biner. Use zinc plated quick links from the bolt to either 1/2" or 5"8 Grade 43 chain. If lower chain ever wears just use some bolt cutters to remove it. It's my favorite way to see sport routes set up. It might not go over so well at the gorge where people are used to the clip in and lower mentality but whatever. They'll either figure it out how to anchor and re-thread or they won't.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
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The Gorge has an open anchor tradition, and changing to closed anchors won't go over well.
There is a good argument for safety as well as speed, to reduce rappel accidents particularly with less experienced followers.
Of course it's mostly for convenience.
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ruppell
climber
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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Yeah Greg I agree. Chains just have so many advantages though. I can already see people leaving their own biners because they can't figure out how to anchor and thread. Might be worth trying it just for booty. The safety trade off probably isn't worth it though. I'd hate to see some noob dirt nap it. Keep the mussy's.
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