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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 19, 2018 - 10:39am PT
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If you can impose your will on others, by whatever means you have, why should you care how they might treat you. After all you're in charge, your will has triumphed. The reality is there are no self evident truths with regard to morality. The rule of evolution is simply triumph to the point of successful reproduction. Hardly a guide to moral good. If all we have is subjective responsibility well, one man's bliss is another man's nightmare. Yeah, I need justification.
Well if that is how you view the world, then believing in a supernatural being that has handed down the moral law for humanity might be a good thing for you.
I consider myself an atheist and I don't seem to need to believe in a god to behave in the same general, moral, manner as everyone around me.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Contemporary demands for moral behavior have required centuries of self examination and insight into the human condition the majority of that examination can be found in sacred texts from the Bible to the Bhagavad Gita. A moral behavior that was perhaps early on a product of evolution but now one in which evolutionary success is dismissed for the sake of something more virtuous. And where does that higher virtue come from but centuries of reasoned analysis of the human condition that so many seem only to dismiss as "fairy tales."
The development of human moral behavior is perhaps several degrees more non-linear and non-hieratic than the version suggested above. It is highly unlikely that "self-examination" and "insight" -- mustered forth as a sort of administrative initiative in order to satisfy "contemporary demands" -- were in and of themselves uniform de novo explanations for the formulation of strict moral codes; nor that evolutionary success underwent a summary dismissal in order to bring about a more virtuous social order.
A much better explanation, and by comparison one positing no fundamental break with the natural world, was a sea change from hunter/gatherer to settled agriculture. A genetic/epigenetic process of self-domestication developed resulting in a slightly different type of human-- one with a much more salient moral life fitted to and required by new circumstances. Social forms, such as religion, governments, etc. ,are in a real sense moral technologies that are refined extensions-- sort of like the wheel is an extension of walking.
We are most likely still undergoing this process, for good or ill.
Moreover, the idea that we have arrived at exalted moral considerations purely as a result of deliberative contemplation or any combination of various civilized pieties is one idea that has always seemed to service a type of vanity and little else.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180215110041.htm
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Dec 19, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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Contemporary demands for moral behavior have required centuries of self examination and insight into the human condition the majority of that examination can be found in sacred texts from the Bible to the Bhagavad Gita. A moral behavior that was perhaps early on a product of evolution but now one in which evolutionary success is dismissed for the sake of something more virtuous. And where does that higher virtue come from but centuries of reasoned analysis of the human condition that so many seem only to dismiss as "fairy tales."
If your argument is that science doesn't offer a basis for how society should be organized, how we should treat each other, and what makes for a good life, I would totally agree.
I think you need to turn to philosophers for that. If you want to argue that some religions do have some meaningful things to say on the philosophy of life, I wouldn't disagree.
The fairy tales come when a religion says it has the Truth that was handed down from a mythical being that must be followed and cannot be questioned.
And the lies it tells to its members to control their behavior.
Strap on this suicide bomb and go blow up those tourists and go to heaven and have 20 whatever virgins.
Have gay sex and go to hell.
Yea, I think that has done a tremendous amount of harm.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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Playing the "devils" advocate.
The fairy tales come when a religion says it has the Truth that was handed down from a mythical being that must be followed and cannot be questioned.
Yea, I think that has done a tremendous amount of harm.
but does it "work"? Seahawks, 12th man? Could we have built the US, would some be as "prosperous", without "free" labor?
Also, science can be objective, but also, it can inform us how to live, or at least maybe the potential consequences of our choices. Also, maybe like has been mentioned, why we make those choices.
I still like the runaway sexual selection theory.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
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Moreover, the idea that we have arrived at exalted moral considerations purely as a result of deliberative contemplation or any combination of various civilized pieties is one idea that has always seemed to service a type of vanity and little else.
Unfortunately there isn’t much more to go on other than “deliberative contemplation” in so far as that’s exactly what religions, philosophers and anyone else who thinks about moral considerations does. The idea that cultural changes occurred as a result of natural changes such as the movement to agriculture is a given, however, the idea that those changes occurred without some kind of “deliberative contemplation.” doesn't make much sense.
I would say the problem is exactly that we haven’t arrived at an exalted moral consideration of anything, though we have improved. As early as 1780 BCE we see cultures taking a significant leap from unmediated vengeance to the slightly more anodyne approach of eye for an eye justice. There is wisdom to be found in sacred texts as well as a documentation of the growth of that wisdom historically. Dismissing it out of hand without understanding is just silly. Civilization requires a codification of morality, as morality left up to individual definition is its absence. Also, there is this strange tendency to judge historical or sacred texts by the moral standards of the present and in that comparison, largely a mistaken one I’d say, is a revelation of remarkable change toward a more humane approach and yes there are exceptions.
Yea, I think that has done a tremendous amount of harm. What human enterprise hasn't caused harm? The harm done by religion is largely its use as a cover for political actions.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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Illinois AG says Catholic Church failed to disclose abuse accusations against 500 priests and clergy
That's a terrible, despicable thing. Do you think it's a Catholic doctrine that molestation of children is appropriate? Or is this an organizational problem In which those with such proclivities are drawn to the Orders because of a system they that can manipulate for their own purpose. I think the latter. I don't see how this can be blamed on religion except perhaps in a very peripheral sense. No Catholic doctrine I know of promotes or even allows the molestation of children.
To be fair take a look at what the Catholic Church does as a manifestation of doctrine for the good of children, the sick, the poor, education. You might be surprised. Google how many Catholic Hospitals there are.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
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we have arrived at exalted moral considerations purely as a result of deliberative contemplation
In the above I am characterizing , in the most general way, as I understand it ,your position as to the nature and origins of moral thought and behavior, an avowed position which to me seems utterly devoid of natural history. You have been speaking of moral thought and behavior as if it were subject strictly to the felt need to grasp a virtuous life or some other aesthetic or philosophic motive: hence the outgrowth of "purely" deliberative contemplation, by the few or by the many.
Overall your position and the tone of your thinking on this subject of morals could fairly be said to have turned outmoded and more than a little quaint-- or at the least without necessary recourse to the last century and a half of anthropological discovery.
There is wisdom to be found in sacred texts as well as a documentation of the growth of that wisdom historically. Dismissing it out of hand without understanding is just silly
I don't know who you're talking to here but I have never taken such a position. I am a student of literary history. I would never dismiss foundational texts. On the other hand I find the denouncing of religion, when rational, as understandable ( if a bit narrow and overwrought) given that history to which we all are heir. Similarly I find your own brand of apologetics as poorly thought out and slightly redundant as well as crippled a bit by your own reactive , besieged impulses. Not to worry, these shortcomings can be overcome, as many of your instincts are correct.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 04:32pm PT
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More nutcase Antichrist ^^^^ st00pid rants who's an uneducated idiot who's still in kindergarten ....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
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In the above I am characterizing , in the most general way, as I understand it ,your position as to the nature and origins of moral thought and behavior, an avowed position which to me seems utterly devoid of natural history. You have been speaking of moral thought and behavior as if it were subject strictly to the felt need to grasp a virtuous life or some other aesthetic or philosophic motive: the outgrowth of "purely" deliberative contemplation, by the few or by the many.
Utterly devoid of natural history? I'm not sure where that comes from as I've never said anything of the kind. No doubt the felt need to grasp a virtuous life has been an important aspect of philosophical discourse from Pythagorus to Kant to now. Good grief, deliberate contemplation occurs in natural history as well as in moral considerations. Talk about poorly thought out, your argument makes little sense, slightly redundant, crippled, reactive, besieged impulses? Ha. Talk about overwrought. Bad day?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
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At some point of institutional depravity it doesn't really matter. The catholic church has a multi-century history of child abuse and a documented record of protection of the abusers.
There is no doubt the church needs to clean house in this regard but I wouldn't agree that institutional depravity is an appropriate description. The depravity is in the manipulation of the system by individuals. The Church in no way condones molestation. In fact, I believe it's considered a mortal sin. However, no doubt the church needs to strengthen its system in some way to put an end to the susceptible nature of the organization in this regard. The protection of the guilty is the real stain on a system that needs revamping.
You can find a lot of verses in the Bible that justify pedophilia.
Gee, I find that hard to believe.
Hey is it happy hour right now?
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Dec 19, 2018 - 05:09pm PT
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Deuteronomy 20:14
As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies."
Numbers 31:18
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
the Sacred Text was quite supportive of pedophilia
maybe if it was not so sacred it would take a stand against such child brutality
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
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the Sacred Text was quite supportive of pedophilia
Yeah, honestly I just don't see that. I mean do you honestly think the Catholic Church uses those verses to promote child molestation? I mean somebody needs to get a grip around here.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 19, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
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Dingus: At some point of institutional depravity it doesn't really matter. The catholic church has a multi-century history of child abuse and a documented record of protection of the abusers.
Paul: There is no doubt the church needs to clean house in this regard but I wouldn't agree that institutional depravity is an appropriate description. The depravity is in the manipulation of the system by individuals. The Church in no way condones molestation. In fact, I believe it's considered a mortal sin. However, no doubt the church needs to strengthen its system in some way to put an end to the susceptible nature of the organization in this regard. The protection of the guilty is the real stain on a system that needs revamping.
On this one, Dingus is right. To say "The Church in no way condones molestation" is to close your eyes, plug your ears, and mutter to yourself "the Church" is always to be defended, no matter what the charge.
Now, on the other hand, it might be reasonable to say something like "the Christian religion in no way condones molestation." That statement could be argued both ways, but the Catholic Church is not the Christian Religion. It is an economic/political entity that claims to represent a particular interpretation of the Christian religion, and it has an almost 2,000-year history of putting money and power far, far ahead of everything else. Including the welfare of children.
The depravity is _not_ in the manipulation of the system by individuals, but baked into the system itself. If it were just a few individuals, then there would be a long history of "the Church" punishing the molesters, while a few individuals managed to get away with their molestation. But that is simply not the case. The Church has never -- to my knowledge -- done anything but cover up the crimes of its staff. NEVER.
If you can present a reasonable argument that supports your contention that "the Church in no way condones molestation" I'll be happy to consider it. But, as far as I can tell, "the Church" has almost nothing to do with the Christian religion other than using it as a scam to gain economic and political power.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 19, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
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But, as far as I can tell, "the Church" has almost nothing to do with the Christian religion other than using it as a scam to gain economic and political power. Martin Luther's complaint too, in a nutshell.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2018 - 09:22pm PT
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The depravity is _not_ in the manipulation of the system by individuals, but baked into the system itself. If it were just a few individuals, then there would be a long history of "the Church" punishing the molesters, while a few individuals managed to get away with their molestation. But that is simply not the case. The Church has never -- to my knowledge -- done anything but cover up the crimes of its staff. NEVER.
People do bad things, They are people, individuals gaming the system to their advantage. The doctrine of the church forbids even masturbation let alone child molestation! That individuals do bad things and then other individuals cover up for them is bad, very bad and if you ask a priest what he expects their fate will be in the afterlife he will tell you eternal damnation. To blame the church for the evils of child molesters is like condemning science for Dr. Edward Teller. It makes no sense. Individuals do bad things. Corruption is a common human trait; it is not peculiar to religion or science or government; it is peculiar to individuals.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 19, 2018 - 09:35pm PT
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That individuals do bad things and then other individuals cover up for them is bad, very bad and if you ask a priest what he expects their fate will be in the afterlife he will tell you eternal damnation.
Paul, if you were anywhere close to right, then the history of the Catholic Cburch would be chock full of priests getting turned over to the law for f*#king children. But it is not. The history of the Catholic Church is just the opposite -- chock full of abuse being covered up, denied, turned a blind eye to...
Sure, if you asked a priest what he expects about the fate of child molesters, of course he'd say they'll burn in hell. And then, when you nod and walk away, he'd laugh his ass off. If he didn't lie like that, he'd never have been allowed to become a priest in the first place.
To confuse the Catholic Church, or any other church, with religion is to willfully ignore somewhere around 1,800 years of history. We may not know exactly who Jesus was or just what he did or didn't do, and we can argue about the existence and omnipotence of a variety of gods, but the despicable history of the Catholic Church in respect to abuse of children is plain for all to see.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 19, 2018 - 11:55pm PT
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Christian anti-semitism is difficult to separate from the religion.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 20, 2018 - 09:11am PT
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Here's some more BS for you. Enjoy.
The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world.[1] It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries.[2] In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities.[3] The Church's involvement in health care has ancient origins.
For I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you received me in your homes. Naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me ... [W]hatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.
As of 2011, the Church operates the world's largest non-governmental school system.[1] In 2016, the church supported 43,800 secondary schools, and 95,200 primary schools.
According to the census of the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education, the total number of Catholic universities and higher education institutions around the world is 1,358. On the other hand, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops counts it at 1,861. The Catholic religious order with the highest number of universities around the world today is the Society of Jesus with 114.
And there's a whole lot of STEM in those schools.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 20, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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Power corrupts. It always has. It doesn’t matter which organization we’re talking about. As an ex-management scholar, I can hardly think of any organization that hasn’t had ethical problems and challenges. One might as well be walking though a mind field for the first time.
Of course a person can blame an organization for not being more careful, but that is a far cry from saying that most any organization is essentially evil. Most organizations that I’ve worked with needed much better systems, much better people, and much more competent management and leadership.
(As an aside, should we hold democracy accountable for the amount of death and destruction the U.S. has been connected to? Is it a bad system, a bad number of people, or what?)
There is no tolerance for complexity or ambiguity in messy situations in this and many threads here. There seems to be mostly black and white points of view. How can one collaborate, mediate, or negotiate messy issues with others unlike themselves if one doesn’t offer some understanding of complexity and ambiguity to the others that one opposes?
I wonder what old-timers like Socrates or Plato might have said about such modern criticism?
It seems logically questionable to me to judge the past with modern beliefs and values. But THAT apparent unavoidability is what makes these conversations so very difficult—and interesting.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
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to gain more followers
Yep that's YOU as you have a huge hardon for these people, Anti-nutcase.
You're made for each other .....
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