The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 30, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
Though a bit rainy the day I visited, I saw the Master's grave


I like the reverential tone. Like visiting a memorial to Einstein.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:01am PT
re: evidence-based belief
re: belief in human rights, belief in the rights of the individual


What's the difference, really, between (a) believing in human rights (e.g., the rights of the individual) and (b) believing in God? since the former is just as made up and fictitious as the latter. (See Harari, for eg)

Believing in the rights of the individual (or believing in human rights) is, at bottom, an idea; it's entirely made up; it's no more evidence-based than believing in God.

- Asked by a questioner in response to a speaker encouraging evidence-based belief.

"it's no more evidence-based..."
But is this true?


(My consideration of the day.)

...

Merry Perihelion!
sempervirens

climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 10:56am PT
What's the difference, really, between (a) believing in human rights (e.g., the rights of the individual) and (b) believing in God? since the former is just as made up and fictitious as the latter. (See Harari, for eg)

Well, since you asked, the difference is that the first is a belief in a concept, i.e. that humans have certain rights. One who holds that belief may or may not believe that those rights are granted and respected. Like an opinion, it is neither fictitious nor true. The second is the belief in the actual existence of God as an entity.

I agree that these are both constructions of the human mind.
Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Jan 3, 2018 - 10:58am PT
trump is god
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 11:38am PT
Encumbered by publishing industry sexism, Rowling opts for male-sounding pen name as did the Brontes and George Eliot ( Marianne Evans) over a century before.

This is simply not true. In Rowling's own words:

"...to publish without hype or expectation and pure pleasure to get feedback from publishers and readers"

Furthermore:

"Robert fully intends to keep writing the series"

As regards the atmosphere of recent posts, there is perhaps nothing more vacuous,
unproductive, and unnecessarily incendiary than the retroactive superimposition of relatively contemporary ideologies upon the distant past-- in this case baby boomer feminism upon the 18th and 19th centuries. But such absurd historical methodologies will doubtless continue as long as people feel unrestrained in their pseudo-moral posturings; or to live exclusively within the cultural bubble boundaries of their own times.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
Shakespeare is God.

Agreed!

Although my own sense of the Bard was he was much thinner, somewhat frailer appearing than this tourist-inspired depiction.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
sempervirens,
I agree that these are both constructions of the human mind...

That is right. They are constructions. In other words, fictions, or made up constructions. (Original definition of fiction.)

In Harari's work (Sapiens, Homo Deus), he uses the word "fiction" rather loosely as synonymous with a made up construction or made-up convention.


It seems to me, belief in human rights, or belief in the rights of the individual (vis a vis the state), though invented (a made-up construction; a made-up fiction), is in a sense "evidence-based" because ad hoc (after the trial) the belief's been tried and tested and shown to be productive/beneficial to society.


Then again, I suppose a few (like Paul here) could say the very same about belief in God as well, that the belief has been shown to benefit society, and thus it too, in a way, is evidence-based.

Hmm.

Still, one could make the case that belief in God is other-worldly while belief in the rights of Man (e.g., individual vs state) are secular and this-worldly. So when it comes to values, in some cases, this might be the more important characteristic (as opposed to evidence-based) distinguishing the one made-up convention (or fiction) from the other made-up convention.

Okay, I'm done. :)

...

Afterthought...

So basic ideas, just like plans, strategies, playbooks, methods, policies, etc. can be assessed/judged ad hoc (after the fact, after the testing, after the play-action) for their productive value or benefit - and then the outcomes/results become the... evidence. Thus "evidence-based".

"Who knew it could be so complicated?" :)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 3, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
Belief...a loaded concept given that there are so many ways (often contradictory) that lead to belief or non belief.
When it comes to God, I rest comfortably in my non belief.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal..."

Good thing Jefferson didn't overthink it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal..."

Nice.

v2) "We hold these truths to be evidence-based that all men are created equal..."

v3) We hold these ideas (cf: conventions, formulas, propositions, sets of ideas, constructions, made-ups, statements, declarations) to be self-evident that Man has rights under Nature...


Interesting though that usage panel (Merriam-Webster) does NOT equate "evident" (clear to the vision or understanding) and "evidentiary" or "evidential" (designating or of evidence) in any instance.



Food for thought...

"Yes, self-evident but not evidence-based, Sir."
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jan 3, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
Shakespeare is not God.
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 08:18pm PT
Corn syrup shouldn't be talking about evidence at all as he has none about anything at all.

This hypocrite corn syrup who has no credibility other than just being an anonymous troll ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 4, 2018 - 08:35am PT
It's cute how Ben thinks his religion is the foundation of all, and we non-believers have no basis for acting morally without reference to his fairy tale." -Brandon



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTWCl32j8jM

"Religion is the greatest obstacle to moral progress, and the only reason we can have discussions like this today is because religion is now weak, after having to give up so much ground due to secular thought." -Brandon

" Ben would be someone arguing for old testament ethics a few centuries ago because of his so called requirement to ground his moral compass into mythology." -Brandon

...

There is No God...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/121844/There-is-No-God

...

re: truth vs well-being (truth vs winning)

"If somebody puts a gun to my head and asks me questions, I try to figure out what answers they want to hear, not what answers are true." -Eric Weinstein

"It seems to me we're struggling, and it's not just us - all of us are struggling to find a way to capture meaning and value in the context of a rational worldview; and I think that is a challenge that just doesn't go away - it is a perpetual challenge - and insofar as we understand the situation we're in, we need to find ways of talking about that so as to converge with a basic lifeplan with seven billion strangers. And the one difference between us is what we think the value of religion is in that picture." -Sam Harris

(1) How to capture meaning and value in the context of a rational worldview (2) that works not just for you and me, or for the individual or small group, but that works for the seven billion too.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 4, 2018 - 07:35pm PT
Balls of meat
With a bit of self-awareness
Attached!

Let's take the scientific materialist worldview at its very base: At its very base we are basically balls of meat wandering through the universe with a bit of self-awareness attached." -Ben Shapiro to Sam Harris

:)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 4, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
Balls of meat with the remarkable and unique ability to know the structure of the universe.The crown of creation at least in this solar system.

Why those in science seek with such a passion to diminish humanity and its condition, humans with their incredible potential, is beyond me and I'll say again a product of the romantic sensibility. Science + romanticism = self negation. Sad and silly.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 4, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
You're nothing but a ball of meat!




DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 07:36am PT
Dingus, so you think those grinder gears are solar powered? lol



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s

I tried to show you just how much I care...
sempervirens

climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 08:10am PT
Why those in science seek with such a passion to diminish humanity and its condition, humans with their incredible potential, is beyond me and I'll say again a product of the romantic sensibility. Science + romanticism = self negation. Sad and silly.

Paul, that is a straw man argument. Are you sure "those in science seek to diminish humanity"? Consider those in science who are fascinated with humanity and wish instead to observe and study it. Wouldn't you agree that there are scientists who study love, war, sex, art, and yes even religion? You can find a crazy scientist just as you can find religious zealots who wish to damn you to hell. But of course not all who claim to be scientists or religious zealots will have those same passions.

Why anyone would diminish humanity is beyond me too. On that I agree. If you think that scientists do so, then wouldn't you have to agree that religious people do as well?
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Jan 5, 2018 - 08:39am PT
Hey sycorax,
keep it up and I can throw out my copies of,
:)

Norton Anthology of World Literature
Norton Anthology of World Literature
Credit: T Hocking

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 08:54am PT
Sycorax, what is your purpose here?

This is a science religion belief thread.

Is your purpose just to disrupt?


FYI, some of us just aren't THAT enamored by your posts.

Maybe start a Fine Literature or Critical Theory thread?
Just a suggestion.
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