The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:15am PT
Good grief!

That is a quote. From Ben Shapiro. And he's got others.
Perhaps you should actually listen to the podcast? lol


Of course you could get a lot more from Frank Graham and Rick Warren, two more "religious types" who at every opportunity eagerly diss nature as revealed by science (you know, that "scientific materialistic" view).

Instead of blaming science, maybe blame Nature Herself? As science at base is simply the interrogator (Sagan) of Nature.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:21am PT
Let's take the scientific materialist worldview at its very base:

This is exhausting. Try reading the above quote.

The greatest description of a relationship to nature that I've ever read. Gotta like Wordsworth.

Nor perchance,
If I were not thus taught, should I the more
Suffer my genial spirits to decay:
For thou art with me here upon the banks
Of this fair river; thou my dearest Friend,
My dear, dear Friend; and in thy voice I catch
The language of my former heart, and read
My former pleasures in the shooting lights
Of thy wild eyes. Oh! yet a little while
May I behold in thee what I was once,
My dear, dear Sister! and this prayer I make,
Knowing that Nature never did betray
The heart that loved her; 'tis her privilege,
Through all the years of this our life, to lead
From joy to joy: for she can so inform
The mind that is within us, so impress
With quietness and beauty, and so feed
With lofty thoughts, that neither evil tongues,
Rash judgments, nor the sneers of selfish men,
Nor greetings where no kindness is, nor all
The dreary intercourse of daily life,
Shall e'er prevail against us, or disturb
Our cheerful faith, that all which we behold
Is full of blessings. Therefore let the moon
Shine on thee in thy solitary walk;
And let the misty mountain-winds be free
To blow against thee: and, in after years,
When these wild ecstasies shall be matured
Into a sober pleasure; when thy mind
Shall be a mansion for all lovely forms,
Thy memory be as a dwelling-place
For all sweet sounds and harmonies; oh! then,
If solitude, or fear, or pain, or grief,
Should be thy portion, with what healing thoughts
Of tender joy wilt thou remember me,
And these my exhortations! Nor, perchance—
If I should be where I no more can hear
Thy voice, nor catch from thy wild eyes these gleams
Of past existence—wilt thou then forget
That on the banks of this delightful stream
We stood together; and that I, so long
A worshipper of Nature, hither came
Unwearied in that service: rather say
With warmer love—oh! with far deeper zeal
Of holier love. Nor wilt thou then forget,
That after many wanderings, many years
Of absence, these steep woods and lofty cliffs,
And this green pastoral landscape, were to me
More dear, both for themselves and for thy sake!


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:32am PT
So what's YOUR advice, Paul? Should we just ignore the "scientific materialistic view"? How would that work?

Perhaps we could we just de-emphasize it? Barely if ever speak of it? In today's world, how would that work?
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:34am PT
The human mind is capable of comprehending the infinite.

Really? You can’t even see both aspects of a necker cube at the same time, and you can comprehend infinity?






Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:49am PT
Some one please tell me what the hell does scale have to do with importance?


As Sagan said, “astronomy is humbling,” because an understanding of scale, and an understanding of the concept of infinity, is important to keep in mind because human grandiosity, often empowered by religious chosen one fervor, is responsible for so much suffering and destruction.

Scale helps to keep what is really important in perspective.

For me, my experience of nature, love, etc., is of supreme importance, but to the tardigrade or the Vega supercluster and all it’s inhabitants not a whit.
sempervirens

climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:51am PT
Straw man argument? No, simply an observation of opinions on this and the mind thread. Perhaps I should have qualified with "those here on this thread," since, no doubt there are many in science that don't succumb to the notion we are but dust specks riding around on a dust speck no more valuable than a bacteria, accidents of evolutionary processes in a vast indifferent universe, doomed to end as a species and therefore ultimately irrelevant in our actions and production. A really pathetic way to think of the miraculous structure we call the human mind.

Hmmm. Are you assuming that if someone believes we are specks of dust, as you say, then they are negating humanity? That logic does not add up. That is why it is a straw man argument. Make an assumption about someone or a group of people and then argue that it is pathetic, sad, silly. In my case your reasoning is obviously nonsense because I am fascinated by humanity and reality and for that reason I engage in science.

Science cannot define the ultimate question of creation and infinity. How far back does time go? None of us know. But religion claims to know. Science makes claim to what is observed. Science is not a negation or diminishment.

I address your arguments directly. But you continue to obfuscate or ignore my points. Why is that?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 5, 2018 - 10:59am PT
It is the "The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread"
even though ionlyski has thrown in with the New Mysterians in the OP.

Given that it sets up a competition, or at least a comparison, one has to expect that posters on the thread will weigh in where they think, and use rhetorical devices to advance their argument.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:08am PT
Science is not a negation or diminishment.

I don't think it is either, however, go back and read this thread from the beginning and you'll see that those taking a materialist stance have repeatedly (as above) emphasized the need to humble our sense of the importance of our own existence. Science is after all is only a method and as a method is wonderfully effective, but when it is laced with a romantic view of nature in which nature does become a kind of god replacement and in which the "humbleness" of humanity as a vestige of christianity is a given, their is a diminishment of what it is to be human.

But you continue to obfuscate or ignore my points. Why is that?

Obfuscate? Really? I'd be happy to answer any of your questions
sempervirens

climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:10am PT
Given that it sets up a competition, or at least a comparison, one has to expect that posters on the thread will weigh in where they think, and use rhetorical devices to advance their argument.

Yes, Ed, I understand your point. I'm doing my best to go beyond the rhetoric. I find debate to an interesting past time, similar to a cross word puzzle, I can learn from it. I even think that if we could go beyond rhetoric we wouldn't have the current state of politics and media. So maybe a positive impact on the world is possible.

If you have responses to any of my comments, I'd appreciate them.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:17am PT
Maybe we should start a ‘What is “Mind?” vs The New “Religion Vs Science” Thread Thread’ to determine who is closer to concordance.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:18am PT
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

(alpha centauri here I come!)

DMT
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:22am PT
At their base the two threads have more in common than they do differences.
The large questions: is there anything beyond the forms of sensibility? Is there anything beyond the material? Of course there will be drift from one thread to the other.
sempervirens

climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:23am PT
Paul, I have read most of the thread. I skip sycorax's posts, who doesn't, ha, ha.

Perhaps some here hold the opinions you ascribe to them but I don't. Do those you refer to really want to replace God with nature? Do they really attempt to point out a diminishment of humanity? I doubt they agree with you on your assertions of their opinions.

But you do ignore most of the questions I've brought up. It seems you'd rather respond to the more absurd notions. That's why I call it straw man argument. For example, foxx news finds some loud mouth who claims to be a liberal and demands free health care, free education, free whatever. They put that person on the TV and boom, gullible people believe liberals are all lazy free loaders. Then they argue, "why should those liberals get my hard-earned tax money...". Meanwhile a reasonable debate over free health care gets squashed in favor of the straw man rhetoric. Can you follow that argument?

Most of my posts had questions for you. Remember the Bible quotes I cited?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:27am PT
"Can you follow that argument?"

I can! Sempervirens. Excellent post. :)
WBraun

climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:28am PT
Just see how the poor gross materialists are always bewildered by the inferior gross physical, subtle material and superior spiritual energies.

All these are beyond your capabilities to fully grasp.

The foolish gross materialists are like children who still want to stick their fingers in a moving fan while completely ignoring the outcome.

Their attempts at gaining full knowledge are the same as licking the outside of the jar and sticking their fingers into a moving fan.

Yet that licking of the outside of that jar constitutes all that they know and claim.

The intelligent class investigates inside the jar which is only opened by the owner and can never be done independently like the gross materialists foolish attempts ......
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:38am PT
the need to humble our sense of the importance of our own existence

This again is a strawman.

My life, my existence, my experiences on this spot of dust are all I’ve got, and so as I said, are supremely important to me.

But it is an unsupportable belief that an individual’s or a group’s or a nation’s grandiose vision of itself should be imposed on the rest of humanity, and our pale blue dot, that results in Third Reichs and Holy Wars and unrestrained global climate change.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 5, 2018 - 11:45am PT
sempervirens If you have responses to any of my comments, I'd appreciate them.

paul roehl has been implacable in his stance, which is that those "scientists" that post here are under a Rousseauean thrall, romantics who believe that nature is "good" and humanity (and its institutions) are "bad." He often points out that these "scientists" are contradictory in their alleged belief because, after all, humans are a part of nature by their own reckoning. That the majesty of the universe understanding itself, as a part of the scientific view, should be exalted. He is disappointed that this is not the case.

paul roehl's posted poem which he describes as the "greatest description of a relationship to nature that I've ever read" shows him to be,
...
A worshipper of Nature, hither came
Unwearied in that service: rather say
With warmer love—oh! with far deeper zeal
Of holier love.

and we all know the difficulties of dissuading any one full of "holy love" from more sober discussion.

Of course this is not at all about your posts... in my experience, when scientists think about it, they are awed by the Universe and by our ability to comprehend it at all. And while we are that speck of light, the Universe is made oddly smaller by taking its measure, not infinitely big, not eternal, not inscrutable.

It is the wonderful privilege to toil at understanding the Universe that the scientists are most grateful for, and if their critical habits spill over to posts on threads like this, they can be taken, by those unfamiliar, to be criticisms of "holy love," as nothing is holy to a scientist.

Worshippers of Nature might take offense.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 5, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
paul roehl's posted poem which he describes as the "greatest description of a relationship to nature that I've ever read" shows him to be,
...
A worshipper of Nature, hither came
Unwearied in that service: rather say
With warmer love—oh! with far deeper zeal
Of holier love.

and we all know the difficulties of dissuading any one full of "holy love" from more sober discussion.

Seems I've touched a nerve.

Here's the problem: Romanticism in and of itself is fine, the worship of nature is fine, the scientific method is fine but when Romanticism taints attitudes in science to the point it diminishes our appreciation of the importance of the human mind as a structure in the universe that can and does know, and by propinquity that relationship is inclined to see those achievements in human life outside science as futile in the face of scale and transience, we have a sobering problem a deeply imbedded myopia .

The "holy love" is not mine and the sober discussion is exactly what I'm interested in, but for someone who values the touchstone of reality I don't think you get it.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
Paul, that sentence is so long and drawn out I think you might have lost its plot.

I want names.

What "science types" here do not have an appreciation of the importance of the human mind as a structure in the universe that can and does know?

What "science types" see achievements in human life outside science as futile in the face of scale and transience?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 5, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
Paul, that sentence is so long and drawn out I think you might have lost its plot.

Yes, but it's really good isn't it?
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