The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Jim Clipper

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 09:25am PT
dang, heaven aint a vacuum? that sucks
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 10:31am PT
I’d say that intergalactic and quantum mechanical phenomena are hardly available to empirical experience. Both are “seen” through conceptual frameworks, constructs, and metric which are devised to make them evident to the mind. All of contemporary modern science “works” based on the same process. What is intergalactic and quantum mechanical is not directly available to anyone’s senses.

Oddly enough I couldn't help but think of the physicist, Percy Bridgman, who philosophically explored the problem inherent in the interaction of theoretical concepts with the experimental process of measurement. It all began for him when:

Bridgman created pressures nearly 100 times higher than anyone else had achieved before him, and investigated the novel behavior of various materials under such high pressures. But Bridgman was placed in a predicament by his own achievements: at such extreme pressures, all previously known pressure gauges broke down; how was he even to know what levels of pressure he had in fact reached? (see Kemble, Birch and Holton 1970) As he kept breaking his own pressure records, Bridgman had to establish a succession of new measures fit for higher and higher pressures. Therefore it is no surprise that he thought seriously about the groundlessness of concepts

Despite his difficulties he eventually won the Noble Prize in 1946.
Even more importantly Bridgman was "a skilled mountain climber."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/operationalism/


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Williams_Bridgman









paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 18, 2018 - 10:33am PT
probably to live your life with joy and wonder, where ever you find it, science included (but probably not for you Paul).

What is the justification for a life in the pursuit of wonder (mystery, perhaps) and joy. After all, what's a rapacious pirate doing. IMHO science, or really the scientific method, is, like religion, one of the great achievements of the human mind, born out of philosophy and rational thought. "The starry sky above and the moral law within." But what constitutes making or living a "good " life, a virtuous life and a justification for that life, given our circumstance, is a bit more complicated than the simple search for joy.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 11:05am PT
Jim Clipper, one of my all-time favorite videos is Joni Mitchell For Free performed on the same BBC broadcast in 1970.
Mitchell is all of 27 years old.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
interstellar-, intergalactic-, intercluster-space is not a vacuum, but a very very low density medium in which "sound" propagates at speed rather slow compared to our usual experience.

Spiritual sound vibrations have no limitations from the material manifestations and travel instantaneously.

Spiritual sound vibrations are nothing like material sound vibrations ever.

That is how the proof is revealed to the chanter by vibrating spiritual sound vibrations without offenses.

The gross materialists are always ultimately in poor fund of knowledge due to their consciousness working only in limitations of the material stratum .....
Jim Clipper

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 05:00pm PT
warning riposte. may have seen it before.

ancient sounds, traveling between beings, echoing, amplifying, no resonating an enliightened state?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

sorry ill take my material, and go sit quietly by myself for a while. no mas eh...
WBraun

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
There's NO ancient sounds.

You, people, make everything up in your heads and project them outside of yourselves.

No wonder you're blind as bats because you're clueless and brainwashed.

Spirtual sound vibrations are always in existance past present and future.

They are unaffected by Time

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 18, 2018 - 06:05pm PT
What is the justification for a life in the pursuit of wonder (mystery, perhaps) and joy.

You need justification? There isn't any, ultimately. Aside from behaving in a way you would like others to behave (toward you) would seem pretty much a good guide star.


MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 18, 2018 - 06:29pm PT
Ed: You need justification? There isn't any, ultimately. 

I agree. If one experiences “at-one-ment,“ everything takes care of itself.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 18, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
You need justification? There isn't any, ultimately. Aside from behaving in a way you would like others to behave (toward you) would seem pretty much a good guide star.

If you can impose your will on others, by whatever means you have, why should you care how they might treat you. After all you're in charge, your will has triumphed. The reality is there are no self evident truths with regard to morality. The rule of evolution is simply triumph to the point of successful reproduction. Hardly a guide to moral good. If all we have is subjective responsibility well, one man's bliss is another man's nightmare. Yeah, I need justification.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 18, 2018 - 06:54pm PT
WOO

woo, definition
the way a person is when they uncritically believe unsubstantiated or unfounded ideas

no real content, no basis for beliefs, repetition of woo pretending to be better, above others
Jim Clipper

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
2 cents more...

behaving in a way you would like others to behave (toward you) would seem pretty much a good guide star.

well said.

Also? Okage, namaste, aloha, assalamu alaikum, salaam, others? We are maybe a complicated and peculiar people, but some say with more in common than not.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
"...The rule of evolution is simply triumph to the point of successful reproduction. Hardly a guide to moral good..."

which is how we got here.
where did 'moral good' come from?
maybe a part of how we got here...
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
Paul states
The reality is there are no self evident truths with regard to morality


Respectfully disagree - so obvious that humans' intrinsically knowing right from wrong, morality, that the US Constitution finds so important as one of its core basis:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that ...

human evolution, long before religion's attempts to mandate, to order morality under penalty,
imprinted in that every early consciousness the ideas of protecting offspring, of passing along codes of shared conduct that formed the first human groups and established concepts of treating others as you want to be treated, the emergence of morality was critical to interactions that benefited everyone from early groups engaged in protection to agriculture, I am sure Jan's background can add much more detail



Jim Clipper

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
Not to pile on Paul.

Science types seems to like to use words like altruism, group selection theory, kin selection. Talking about love, saviors, redemption, sacrifice seems more problematic.

https://news.stanford.edu/news/2008/november5/tanner-110508.html

Is it a stretch to think that people, using essentially the same brain we do, found use in codifying practices in their cultures. Ultimately, isn't religion cultural? We can use it signal to each other that we have the same interests. Cultures always change, some religions are more "successful" than others, but they have always changed. They have built some fantastic, awe inspiring things too.

How about getting together weekly, singing songs, sharing a meal, doing group building exercises? Putting on the same uniform, marching together to the same drum. Professional sports?

edit: apologies for being mistaken. I maybe can appreciate always there, not ancient.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:30pm PT
human evolution, long before religion's attempts to mandate, to order morality under penalty,
imprinted in that every early consciousness the ideas of protecting offspring, of passing along codes of shared conduct that formed the first human groups and established concepts of treating others as you want to be treated, the emergence of morality was critical to interactions that benefited everyone from early groups engaged in protection to agriculture, I am sure Jan's background can add much more detail

Stretching the notion of tribal codes of shared conduct to the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson is a stretch indeed. Humanity is naturally inclined to the institution of slavery as well as the imposition of one's will on the other as per tribal protection as per the driver that just cut you off in traffic.

Contemporary demands for moral behavior have required centuries of self examination and insight into the human condition the majority of that examination can be found in sacred texts from the Bible to the Bhagavad Gita. A moral behavior that was perhaps early on a product of evolution but now one in which evolutionary success is dismissed for the sake of something more virtuous. And where does that higher virtue come from but centuries of reasoned analysis of the human condition that so many seem only to dismiss as "fairy tales."
Jim Clipper

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
Paul some say: natural selection may have influenced it when we evolved in hunter gatherer societies.

Religion being the answer to the human condition?

Religion being a reflection of the human condition.

I really don't have any skin in the game. Cheers.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
no real content, no basis for beliefs
---


Step outside of "content" for a second. Let go, momentarily, of beliefs.

What's left, IME, is the basis of all religion.

The assertion that there is some thing or object "there" is the basis of all woo. Perhaps the biggest misconception is that "you only think ..." Shows you how hard it is to step outside of content (in this case, thoughts).

When Mike mentioned at-one-ment, he is merely pointing out that our normal dualistic way of operating in the world, while invaluable in many ways, is a spectacular woo generation per who we are.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 19, 2018 - 09:33am PT
Ed: where did 'moral good' come from? maybe a part of how we got here..

Er, and Paul is saying, I believe, that "we’ve come a long way, baby." The species is indeed a remarkable achievement. However, such achievements may well be engineered into the very perception of being, . . . ala, consciousness. These are the things that consciousness does. Consciousness looks at itself, and reflects. Science, literature, morality, religion, art, the study of other ways of being (culture), etc. One may be able to see that wonder-at-work if one can somehow avoid taking things too concretely or seriously.

It’s funny (to me at least) how samsara and nirvana go together. It’s really one and the same, but it doesn’t look that way for most. Most people want things to be one way—their way.

Be well.
WBraun

climber
Dec 19, 2018 - 09:49am PT
We've NOT come a long way at all.

We've actually devolved and have become less intelligent than ever.

Lifespan has been shortened.

The gross materialists are always ultimately in very poor fund of knowledge ...
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