The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 9761 - 9780 of total 10579 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 23, 2017 - 10:42am PT
Well, to the ignorant, a faction not to be ignored, imo, it could me an effective torturing device, effective at silencing dissent. The virgin birth could mean, yeah, once in awhile virgins actually get pregnant (what do the expert biologists know?) (2) to enough of the ignorant ruled by a despot that could mean, under the right circumstances, social impotence if not war... No?

You read these stories only in factual terms and in doing so miss their point and their factual reality completely. Why are the stories of the virgin birth and the dead and returning deity so prevalent in mythologies throughout the world? What do these stories mean in psychological terms? A biological interpretation of the virgin birth is nonsense leading directly to not knowing which I would assume is hardly the goal of science.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 10:52am PT
You read these stories only in factual terms...

I do? lol

I do not.

Have you learned nothing from all these exchanges?

I do not. But others do. Plenty of others. That is the point. Do you consider only yourself. You're fantasizing if you think you can get 100% of the masses on board with your adjulation of the metaphor and (2) its effectiveness as a metaphor with your reconciliation. As William Wallace said: You must open your eyes.

Thank goodness, though, the 21st century info age is changing that. Enough of it at least. Therein is the hope. Soon enough among the reasonably educated theology-based belief sysems (religions) will be moot, as moot as astrology.

Will there be holdouts. Of course. But not among the "reasonably educated".
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:09am PT
I do not. But others do. Plenty of others. That is the point. Do you consider only yourself. You're fantasizing if you think you can get 100% of the masses on board with your adjulation of the metaphor and (2) its effectiveness as a metaphor with your reconciliation. As William Wallace said: You must open your eyes.

Those metaphors have a richness and insight into the human condition that science and technology simply cannot offer. That you refuse to consider them in any way seems a bit stubborn. Perhaps it's more difficult than you imagine to "see" exactly whose eyes are open and whose eyes are shut.
sempervirens

climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:31am PT
Those metaphors have a richness and insight into the human condition that science and technology simply cannot offer. That you refuse to consider them in any way seems a bit stubborn. Perhaps it's more difficult than you imagine to "see" exactly whose eyes are open and whose eyes are shut. Here

Agreed. But what if some of us do consider these metaphors? I can see their value. You are also stubborn in refusing to consider all the harm that religion has done and continues to do. And the harm in blind faith.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
and then there's this angle...

Religion's fine for religious people.
But what about all those who aren't religious?

It's time they had something to support and reflect their
evidence-based beliefs, their reason-based beliefs, their
needs and wants, cares and concerns.

Don't you think?

Something codified. Something
institutional. Something providing community support.
Something incorporating scientific understanding, something
science-respecting.

...

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-change-artist
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 23, 2017 - 01:02pm PT

Re: Yay Hegelian Dialectic

Excellent, sullly!

Cuts through all the reams of babble usually found in philosophy and goes directly to the main ideas. Thanks.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 23, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
John G., if you like dialectics, you might find this one interesting.

http://www.iiis.org/Horne.pdf
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
Thanks, John. The continuous vs the discrete, a never-ending conundrum.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 24, 2017 - 02:06am PT
I think it's a conundrum if you try and posit reality as one or the other. Duality is overcome through coming to see they are two sides of one coin, and that both are inherent to the coin. The tricky part, experientially, is to see one is the other, form is emptiness, emptiness is form - exactly.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 24, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Looks like we are into poetry. From one of the best Polish poets:

Hatred - Poem by Wislawa Szymborska

“See how efficient it still is,
how it keeps itself in shape—
our century's hatred.
How easily it vaults the tallest obstacles.
How rapidly it pounces, tracks us down.

It's not like other feelings.
At once both older and younger.
It gives birth itself to the reasons
that give it life.
When it sleeps, it's never eternal rest.
And sleeplessness won't sap its strength; it feeds it.


One religion or another -
whatever gets it ready, in position.
One fatherland or another -
whatever helps it get a running start.
Justice also works well at the outset
until hate gets its own momentum going.
Hatred. Hatred.
Its face twisted in a grimace
of erotic ecstasy…

Hatred is a master of contrast-
between explosions and dead quiet,
red blood and white snow.
Above all, it never tires
of its leitmotif - the impeccable executioner
towering over its soiled victim.

It's always ready for new challenges.
If it has to wait awhile, it will.
They say it's blind. Blind?
It has a sniper's keen sight
and gazes unflinchingly at the future
as only it can”

Moosehumanoid
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 24, 2017 - 10:03am PT
not this Hardy, though... G.H. Hardy

"It is a melancholy experience for a professional mathematician to find himself writing about mathematics. The function of a mathematician is to do something, to prove new theorems, to add to mathematics, and not to talk about what he or other mathematicians have done. Statesmen despise publicists, painters despise art-critics, and physiologists, physicists, or mathematicians have usually similar feelings: there is no scorn more profound, or on the whole more justifiable, than that of the men who make for the men who explain. Exposition, criticism, appreciation, is work for second-rate minds."

https://www.math.ualberta.ca/mss/misc/A%20Mathematician's%20Apology.pdf

moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 24, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
Sycorax, the relbraW.

Moose
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
Exposition, criticism, appreciation, is work for second-rate minds."

I've encountered this identical sentiment in many forms. So very true.

Nevertheless, these second-rate minds draw real power onto themselves by posing as grimly professional gatekeepers,and thereby, in flocking together, determine admission into the official pantheons -- by ticket or cash.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 24, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
Exposition, criticism, appreciation
----


I'm sure this is true - as well as what Ed quoted - but occasionally when someone goes off on criticism, it's even money his magnum opus got dissed and he's lashing back. The "shut up and start calculating" posture closes the door to all but those in the inner circle, when a broader vantage can sometimes place even genius work in the wider context. What's more, with more esoteric work it usually takes one of the chosen ones to grasp the nuances, so at least some criticism comes from the key players in a given field (and they're always sound off). When even the brightest folks take a stab at material outside their wheelhouse, the results are underwhelming, even ridiculous. Having had roughly 50 books reviewed, I stand by these opinions.

That much said, I've seen morons sitting on panels that decide who wins prestigious literary awards, and some total clunker books win going away. Conversely, sage criticism and commentary is invaluable. For example, some jazz criticism (Ellison et al) ranks right there with the better American non-fiction writing we have.

But, yeah, the quality of many reviews is wildly uneven.


paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 24, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
Takes a pretty broad brush to dismiss all literary criticism. Criticism in lit can and does soar. Criticizing it as a generality is redolent of sour grapes for sure. As critics go best to start with someone accessible like Harold Bloom or in the visual arts someone like Robert Hughes. I find criticism a device for opening up what might otherwise go unappreciated and it's often an art form in and of itself.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
“As for literary criticism in general: I have long felt that any reviewer who expresses rage and loathing for a novel or a play or a poem is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae or a banana split.”

-Kurt Vonnegut

Yes it would take an overly broad brush to paint art or literary criticisms as being one thing.
That's why I usually take that same brush and paint the great majority of criticisms and reviews as junk penned by self-imposed gatekeepers-- by no means all professional criticisms, just most.

Of course my favorite all-time critic was H.L. Mencken:

“He writes the worst English that I have ever encountered. It reminds me of a string of wet sponges; it reminds me of tattered washing on the line; it reminds me of stale bean soup, of college yells, of dogs barking idiotically through endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it. It drags itself out of the dark abysm of pish, and crawls insanely up the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and doodle. It is balder and dash.
(writing about US President Warren G. Harding)”

And then there is this unsettling comment:

“Yes, I hate orthodox criticism. I don't mean great criticism, like that of Matthew Arnold and others, but the usual small niggling, fussy-mussy criticism, which thinks it can improve people by telling them where they are wrong, and results only in putting them in straitjackets of hesitancy and self-consciousness, and weazening all vision and bravery.

...I hate it because of all the potentially shining, gentle, gifted people of all ages, that it snuffs out every year. It is a murderer of talent. And because the most modest and sensitive people are the most talented, having the most imagination and sympathy, these are the very first ones to get killed off. It is the brutal egotists that survive.”
― Brenda Ueland, If You Want to Write: A Book about Art, Independence and Spirit

By " brutal egotists" writers of a certain generation come to mind: Capote, Vidal, Mailer,etc..

Just for the record I think Ueland's sentiments are a little overwrought; nonetheless there's more than a nickel's worth of truth there.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 24, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
...I hate it because of all the potentially shining, gentle, gifted people of all ages, that it snuffs out every year. It is a murderer of talent. And because the most modest and sensitive people are the most talented, having the most imagination and sympathy, these are the very first ones to get killed off. It is the brutal egotists that survive.”

Anybody who wants to be an artist of any kind needs two things beyond talent: thick, thick skin and a work ethic bordering on the pathological.

Highly recommended is "Nothing if Not Critical" by Robert Hughes. There really is some first rate criticism out there. And is it just me or does Vonnegut strike anybody else as just a bit too cranky.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 24, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
sycorax: . . . males who over- post and post to themselves on this forum. 

Males of course should all be castrated.

As for writing for oneself as a means to see how one thinks and feels about things, that’s a horrible thing to do.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 24, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
Miss Sycorax can I be one of your bangers?

DMT
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Dec 25, 2017 - 12:17am PT
Not that it bothers me to mess with anyone’s narrative, but I do dislike the cut and paste and it is certainly copyrighted, but I’ll post this “op-ed” that I came across a couple of days ago in the WSJ and I imagine is behind a pay wall, so all of you can tell me what is up with her.

By
Kim Phuc Phan Thi
Dec. 21, 2017 6:31 p.m. ET

You may not recognize me now, but you almost certainly know who I am. My name is Kim Phuc, though you likely know me by another name. It is one I never asked for, a name I have spent a lifetime trying to escape: “Napalm Girl.”
You have probably seen my picture a thousand times. Yes, that picture. The image that made the world gasp. Some called it a turning point in the Vietnam War—a Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph of me in 1972, age 9, running along a puddled roadway in front of an expressionless soldier. I was photographed with arms outstretched, naked and shrieking in pain and fear, with the dark contour of a napalm cloud billowing in the distance.
My own people had dropped bombs on Route 1 in an effort to cut off the trade routes for the Viet Cong rebels. I had not been targeted. I had simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Those bombs have caused me immeasurable pain over the course of my life. Forty-five years later I am still receiving treatment for the burns that cover my arms, back and neck. But even worse than the physical pain was the emotional and spiritual pain. For years I bore the crippling weight of anger, bitterness and resentment toward those who caused my suffering. Yet as I look back over a spiritual journey that has spanned more than three decades, I realize the same bombs that caused so much pain and suffering also brought me to a place of great healing. Those bombs led me to Jesus Christ.
My salvation experience occurred on Christmas Eve. It was 1982. I was attending a special worship service at a small church in Vietnam. The pastor, Ho Hieu Ha, delivered a message many Christians would find familiar: Christmas is not about the gifts we carefully wrap and place under a tree. Rather, it is about the gift of Jesus Christ, who was wrapped in human flesh and given to us by God. As the pastor spoke, I knew in my heart that something was shifting inside of me.
A decade removed from the defining tragedy of my life, I still desperately needed peace. I had so much hatred and bitterness in my heart. Yet I was ready for love and joy. I wanted to let go of my pain. I wanted to pursue life instead of holding fast to fantasies of death. When Pastor Ho finished speaking, I stood up, stepped out into the aisle, and made my way to the front of the sanctuary to say “yes” to Jesus Christ.
When I woke up that Christmas morning, I experienced my first-ever heartfelt celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. I know what it is like to experience terror, to feel despondent, to live in fear. I know how wearying and hopeless life can be sometimes. After years in the spiritual wilderness, I felt the kind of healing that can only come from God.
I had spent so much of my life running—first from the bombs and the war, then from communist Vietnam. I had always assumed that to flee was my only choice. Looking back, I understand the path I had been racing along led me straight to God. Today I live at ease. Yes, my circumstances can still be challenging. But my heart is 100% healed.
My faith in Jesus Christ is what has enabled me to forgive those who had wronged me—no matter how severe those wrongs were. Faith also inspired me to pray for my enemies rather than curse them. It enabled me not only to tolerate those who had wronged me but to love them.
No matter what type of pain or sorrow you may be experiencing, as Christmas approaches, I encourage you not to give up. Hold fast to hope. It is hope that will see you through. This peace I have found can be yours as well. I pray that it finds you this Christmas.
Ms. Kim is the author of “Fire Road: The Napalm Girl’s Journey through the Horrors of War to Faith, Forgiveness, and Peace” (Tyndale Momentum, 2017). She lives in the Toronto area.
Appeared in the December 22, 2017, print edition.

Faith is strange and marvelous thing. I don’t have much of it these day, as I’m down to threadbare hope in the mystery (woo?). I’ve seen similar faith in the old hard fought and tested crucible of blood, sacrifice, redemption and grace traditions - in a person close to me; and my hypothesis is that faith in the right things will take a person farther down the road and too a better place, than in the end; science, refined reason and over written words.
Messages 9761 - 9780 of total 10579 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta