The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 14, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
Religion has done much to mediate this natural human tendency

Perhaps, but religion has done much to magnify this natural human tendency.
sempervirens

climber
Dec 14, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
Religion has done much to mediate this natural human tendency though so many of the ardent geniuses here on the ST just don't get that.

But some of us do get that. And I have said so. But then isn't it also reasonable to address all the ills that religion has put on the world. Without that faith that religion demands, without that self-proclaimed authority, would they those ills be as severe? Would the religious leaders be as effective in their often deliberate misuse of religion to control or even kill?

As you have said, science and other human endeavors have also been used for evil. But if those endeavors were to demand your faith in them, wouldn't you call bullshit on that? Wouldn't you demand evidence? Or would you profess blind faith in their texts.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
There's no wonder why everyone who has had to endure English literature courses during school, trades their prof's screeds for a Louis L'amour novel.

Scully, your ilk professionally pummels the enjoyment of reading out of those who enjoy reading in the first place. And it costs the money 4 years of being told you're wrong requires.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 14, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
“He rose and turned toward the lights of town. The tidepools bright as smelterpots among the dark rocks where the phosphorescent seacrabs clambered back. Passing through the salt grass he looked back. The horse had not moved. A ship's light winked in the swells. The colt stood against the horse with its head down and the horse was watching, out there past men's knowing, where the stars are drowning and whales ferry their vast souls through the black and seamless sea.” - CM
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 14, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
There's no wonder why everyone who has had to endure English literature courses during school, trades their prof's screeds for a Louis L'amour novel.

Yep, forget that glass of Chateau Lafite gimme a coke. And don't try an' tell me different, cause I know what I like.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 14, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
A veritable geyser of culture, the likes of which is rarely seen on the Taco.


It's good Sycorax finally understands ellipses.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2017 - 08:20pm PT
Hey Paul !

To a person, everyone I know who excels at chemistry, mathematics, physics,medicine,spirituality,engineering,painting and English Lit, enjoys devouring narrative fiction novels for very good reasons.

Maybe you can disabuse them of their successful habits, like enjoying reading for it's own sake.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 15, 2017 - 06:22am PT
sempervirens: My point is that religion is blind faith and that is a problem for humanity. You are bringing up my beliefs but I have not been arguing about my personal beliefs. I'm using definitions of words.

DICTIONARIES?
Well, if that’s all there is to knowledge—knowing what words mean—then everyone must be full up. I can’t begin to say how shallow it is to claim that one knows something because they can use a dictionary fruitfully. Indeed, why would anyone want or need to take any course of study when the world and its libraries are full of dictionaries. Buy the OED, read it, and you’d be done.

VISIONS
Science is also a kind of blind faith if you accepts the assumptions, belief systems, and values of that science holds dear. Religion is also a kind of blind faith if one does the same thing. Almost everyone holds some set of values, beliefs, and norms of behavior dear.

Science’s ability to replicate and predict what occurs within boundaries are not final arbiters of what is true and what is false. Humanities’ ability to subjectively describe does not hold the final judgment of what is subjectively truthful, . . . and on and on. Disciplines are all different forms of socialization and institutionalization. They all present ruts.

BTW, are you quite clear on what science claims it is and how to do it? It’s an approach; nothing gets proven. What happens is that theories get pitted against each other, and the ones that seem to describe or fit data better within a set of created constructs and stable conditions are deemed “winners,” for a while.

Hold no vision sacrosanct.

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 15, 2017 - 07:19am PT
The battle of the cut and paste pros is ON!

DMT
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 15, 2017 - 10:34am PT
I watched the video of Act 3, Scene 3 of Othello. The Iago rendition is new to me. He doesn't seem to be evil at all!

Jim: . . . your ilk professionally pummels the enjoyment of reading out of those who enjoy reading in the first place. 

It’s been said that good writing is rewriting, . . . again and again and again until words sing. Good reading seems the same to me. I don’t know how many times Louis L’amour can be re-read, but I have seen that Shakespeare can—and needs to be—reread over and over until it plumbs one’s soul. There is a point to studying literature in humanities that does not appear to show up in the sciences (unless one appreciates the style in which a scientific article is written).

I’ll take that Lafite, Paul.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 15, 2017 - 11:11am PT
Louis L’amour (Louie) listed some dos and don't and I use them when teaching writing symposiums.

Genre fiction has largely replaced "literature" as the go-to medium in this age of sound bites and Tweets. It's also prompted stylistic changes for those still chasing "literature," namely, losing rambling exposition, evaluating and commentary - basically supplying readers with an official take on the narrative.

Such intrusions reach back to the Chorus' trotted out by Greek dramatists, who eventually added a chief spokesman to narrate some simple dramatic story, interlarded by riffs from the Chorus. "Two speakers were later used, then three, in the works of the Attic tragedians. The Athenian audience looked on the Chorus as an essential unity of the play to insure unity of time, place, and action in the ongoing narrative."

Shakespeare used the Chorus (usually in the person of a single speaker) to explain before each act what had happened since the events portrayed in the last act, and/or primed the audience for what was ahead. In cinematic terms (as seen in documentaries), the Chorus is the equivalent of a "talking head" interview, giving us the low-down.

Louis L’amour and others pretty much dumped all traces of the chorus and rendered most of the narrative "in-scene," propelled by action and dialogue, with a minimum of telling. This yields relentless forward propulsion in keeping with the modern yin for a quick read. It also nixes the richness of many timeless passages that nowadays readers tend to surf past, looking for people.

If Moby Dick was given to a present day editor it would run 120 pages, max. And James Fenimore Cooper ... which we all suffered though as undergrads? Probably wouldn't make the cut. Find me a person who's actually read the Deerslayer, word for word, cover to cover.

Presentation style is morphing as we speak so adventures in literature continue, as they always have. But I still love the old stuff.




jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 15, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
Excellent post, John. Very informative!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 15, 2017 - 04:43pm PT
James Fenimore Cooper, holy crap! He's the Eric Clapton of a certain kind of literature that, for the life of me, I can't remember the name of right now.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 15, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Moore’s defeat...one small step forward for secularism, one small step back for religion...at least the Evangelical version. And so it goes.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
Thanks, Sycorax for the Long Day Into Night video. You have to understand that there is a difference between enjoying literature as entertainment and having to literally endure, entertainers.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 15, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
eeyonkee, Cooper was champion of "Historical Fiction," which was later styled, Romantic Fiction, and several other names. He had a jam packed, varied and fascinating life and wrote his ass off. Crazy amount of books, novels, and articles.

And Sycorax, that O'Neil riff is a classic but I wish he's skipped the metaphorical language. His boundary experience on the beach didn't have to be "like" anything else to make it more better. But the guy nailed it, fo sho.

Sorry for the thread drift but this is a running conversation I reckon.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 15, 2017 - 05:30pm PT
^^^^^
Indeed. WHERE IS THE SCIENCE?!
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 15, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
WHERE IS THE RELIGION?!

Moose
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 15, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
It gets wearing reading the religion bashing on one hand and the science bashing on the other. At least to me. I welcome the literature drift.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
Credit: zBrown
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