The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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WBraun

climber
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:00pm PT
These modern sdt00pid people have destroyed 94% of all seed varieties.

St00pid modern scientists making everything sterile.

So st00pid .... and that's why these idiots think like st00pid robots ....
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
“Conditions for Considering Extraordinary Claims”:

1) The protocols of the study must be clear and impeccable so that all possibilities of error can be evaluated. The investigators, not the reviewers, carry the burden of identifying each possible source of error, explaining how it was minimized, and providing a quantitative estimate of the effect of each error. These errors can be systematic—attributable to biases in the experimental set up—or statistical—the result of chance fluctuations. No new effect can be claimed unless all the errors are small enough to make it highly unlikely that they are the source of the claimed effect.
2) The hypotheses being tested must be established clearly and explicitly before data taking begins, and not changed midway through the process or after looking at the data. In particular, “data mining” in which hypotheses are later changed to agree with some interesting but unanticipated results showing up in the data is unacceptable. This may be likened to painting a bull’s-eye around wherever an arrow has struck. That is not to say that certain kinds of exploratory observations, in astronomy, for example, may not be examined for anomalous phenomena. But they are not used in hypothesis testing. They may lead to new hypotheses, but these hypotheses must then be independently tested according to the protocols I have outlined.
3) The people performing the study, that is, those taking and analyzing the data, must do so without any prejudgment of how the results should come out. This is perhaps themost difficult condition to follow to the letter, since most investigators start out with the hope of making a remark- able discovery that will bring them fame and fortune. They are often naturally reluctant to accept the negative results that more typically characterize much of research. Investigators may then revert to data mining, continuing to look until they convince themselves they have found what they were looking for.3 To enforce this condition and avoid such biases, certain techniques such as “blinding” may be included in the protocol, where neither the investigators nor the data takers and analyzers know what sample of data they are dealing with. For example, in doing a study on the efficacy of prayer, the investigators should not know who is being prayed for or who is doing the praying until all the data are in and ready to be analyzed.
4) The hypothesis being tested must be one that contains the seeds of its own destruction. Those making the hypothesis have the burden of providing examples of possible experimental results that would falsify the hypothesis. They must demonstrate that such a falsification has not occurred. A hypothesis that cannot be falsified is a hypothesis that has no value.
5) Even after passing the above criteria, reported results must be of such a nature that they can be independently replicated. Not until they are repeated under similar conditions by different (preferably skeptical) investigators will they be finally accepted into the ranks of scientific knowledge.

God: the Failed Hypotheses
Victor J Stenger
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
let us define a scientific God model, a theory of God. A supreme being is hypothesized to exist having the following attributes:
1.) God is the creator and preserver of the universe.
2.) God is the architect of the structure of the universe and the author of the laws of nature.
3.) God steps in whenever he wishes to change the course of events, which may include violating his own laws as, for example, in response to human entreaties.
4.) God is the creator and preserver of life and humanity where human beings are special in relation to other life forms.
5.) God has endowed humans with immaterial, eternal souls that exist independent of their bodies and carry the essence of a person's character and selfhood.
6.) God is the source of morality and other human values such as freedom, justice, and democracy.
7.) God revealed truths in scriptures and by communicating directly to select individuals throughout history.
8.) God does not deliberately hide from any human being who is open to finding evidence for his presence.

ibid
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
However, just as we should not use a failed physical model that does not work, it would be unwise for us to guide our lives by religions that worship any gods that fail to agree with the data.
ibid
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
None of the claims of intelligent design proponents, especially the work of its primary theorists, biochemist Michael Behe and theologian William Dembski, have stood up under scientific scrutiny. Numerous books and articles have refuted their positions in great detail. Not only have their arguments been shown to be flawed, but also in several instances the factual claims on which they rest have been proven false. None of their work has been published in respected scientific journals.

see references 12 & 13, chapter 2,
God: the Failed Hypotheses
Victor J Stenger
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
The eye is neither poorly nor well designed. It is simply not designed. Eyes provide such obvious survival value that they developed at least forty times independently in the course of evolution. Neuroscience has identified eight different optical solutions for collecting and focusing light, although all share similarities at the molecular and genetic levels. The physics and chemistry are the same; few ways exist for detecting photons. But, because of the important role of chance and local environment in the evolution of complex systems, different solutions to the problem were uncovered by random sampling of the varied paths allowed by evolution.

ibid

also see Climbing Mount Improbable by Richard Dawkins
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
Department position on evolution and "intelligent design"

The faculty in the Department of Biological Sciences is committed to the highest standards of scientific integrity and academic function. This commitment carries with it unwavering support for academic freedom and the free exchange of ideas. It also demands the utmost respect for the scientific method, integrity in the conduct of research, and recognition that the validity of any scientific model comes only as a result of rational hypothesis testing, sound experimentation, and findings that can be replicated by others.

The department faculty, then, are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of "intelligent design." While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.

http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/News/evolution.html
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
The living machines we call our bodies deteriorate
because they were not designed for extended operation
and because we now push them to function long past
their warranty period.

In evolutionary terms, we harbor flaws because
natural selection, the force that molds our genetically
controlled traits, does not aim for perfection or endless
good health.

If Humans Were Built to Last
http://docencia.med.uchile.cl/evolucion/olshansky%202001.pdf
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 07:04pm PT
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
King James Version

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+9%3A5-6&version=KJV
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 12, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
In fact, when you think of it, why would an infinitely powerful God even need six days?
Wouldn't he have the ability to create everything in an instant?
And, why would he have to rest when he was all done?

God: the Failed Hypotheses
Victor J Stenger

xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 12, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
I think paul is confusing the propensity to being manipulated which man comes by due to self consciousness and the organizational power base which more often than not has done the manipulation throughout post agricultural history

the propensity existed for a hundred thousand years previous to civilization and was not exploited to the exclusive detriment of man as is the case in the last ten thousand

jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 12, 2017 - 10:05pm PT
Malemute wins a prize for determination.
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 13, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
Isaiah 17:1
“See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins."

Zechariah 10:11
"They will pass through the sea of trouble;
the surging sea will be subdued
and all the depths of the Nile will dry up.
Assyria’s pride will be brought down
and Egypt’s scepter will pass away."

Ezekiel 29:8-12
8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will bring a sword against you and kill both man and beast. 9 Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the Lord.
“‘Because you said, “The Nile is mine; I made it,” 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush.[a] 11 The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. 12 I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17:1
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2010:11
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+29%3A8-12&version=NIV

All false, so not the infallible word of an all powerful being.
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 13, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
Logical Problem of Evil

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 13, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
It's become a close contest, folks, between two irrepressible posters!

Who will win the prize?
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 14, 2017 - 08:52am PT
Victor Stenger:
Summary of attempts to reconcile a 3O God with the existence of evil,
The following summary is by Michael Huemer.[9] The responses in italics are mne.

1. "Evil is a product of human free will. God gave us free will because free will is a very valuable thing. But he cannot both give us free will and prevent us from doing evil."
Not all evil is the product of human free will, for example, natural disasters. If you redefine evil to include only human-caused ills, you still have to deal with the unnecessary suffering of natural disasters that are under God's control.

2. "Some amount of suffering is necessary for humans to develop important moral virtues. Some moral virtues can only exist in response to suffering or other bad things. Examples: courage, charity, strength of will."
This could be accomplished with a whole lot less suffering than exists in the world.

3. "Good and evil exist only as contrasts to each other. Therefore, if evil were eliminated, good would automatically be eliminated as well."
Good can exist independent of evil. Winning a race is good, but losing it is not evil. Buying a toy for your granddaughter is good, but not doing so is not evil when she already has a playroom full of toys.

4. "Slightly different from #3: If evil were eliminated, then we wouldn't know that everything was good, because we can only perceive things when there is contrast."
Even if we did not identify something as good, it still can be good. And it still can be good even if we have no experience of bad. My granddaughters know that having toys is good, although they have never had no toys and so have not had the opposing experience.

5. "Perhaps God has a different conception of evil from ours. Maybe what we think of evil is good."
We trust our own judgment on the evil of gratuitous suffering. No one can conceive of a reason God could have for allowing so much suffering. Why should we worship a God who allows acts that we regard as unspeakable? If God has a different conception of evil from ours, then so much the worse for God. He is then nothing more than an evil potentate. He might have power, but he has no moral authority and no one should worship him. "Good" and "evil" are our words and they name our concepts. It is confused thinking to suppose that some God's opinion would make any difference in our concepts.

6. "Perhaps there is some underlying purpose served by all the evil in the world, but we humans are not smart enough to comprehend it. Have faith."
What could that possibly be? Again, why should we blindly accept acts that go against our very nature? Why would God give us a nature that finds his actions so reprehensible?

7. "God is not responsible for evil. The Devil is.
The Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is stronger than the Devil and so still ultimately responsible.

8. "If we simply weaken the definition of God, then the existence of God may be compatible with the existence of evil. This, for example, he might be unable to instantly eliminate all the evil."
While the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God described in scriptures is hardly benevolent, the faithful of these religions are far more likely to ignore unpleasant scriptural passages than abandon belief in a benevolent God.

Stenger, God: The Failed Hypothesis

http://archive.li/0DLka#selection-929.0-1078.0
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 14, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
http://www.refinethemind.com/why-politics-and-religion-make-everyone-crazy/

http://religionandpolitics.org/2016/08/15/the-moral-tribalism-of-contemporary-politics/

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/09/can-democracy-survive-tribalism.html
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 14, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
6 Ways Religion Does More Bad Than Good

1. Religion promotes tribalism
2. Religion anchors believers to the Iron Age
3. Religion makes a virtue out of faith
4. Religion diverts generous impulses and good intentions
5. Religion teaches helplessness
6. Religions seek power

https://www.alternet.org/belief/6-ways-religion-does-more-bad-good
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 14, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
^^^^ Malemute, thanks for the link, just read the article
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