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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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jgill: Largo says that Zen Buddhism is not a religion. What do you experts say? If over a period of time masters guide your meditative efforts toward a specific result, is this similar to a priest guiding one to God?
Any discipline does this. Meditation occurs almost hourly for most people, and they are oriented to specific results.
Your writing is getting sloppy and over-generalized, IMO.
Malemute: . . . instead of a rational, factual argument, . . .
Hey, show me some data--not just what people think. Cite an peer-reviewed empirical study.
I see no experts on Religion posting to this thread.
Hey, for a fellow that does nothing (seemingly) but post URLs and almost endless diatribe about the evils of religion, you sure seem to put yourself out as a knowledgeable editor or gatekeeper of understanding about the subject.
Get a grip on your behaviors, man. You’re a little obsessed and out-of-control here on this subject. Take a step back and take a break. You’re in the thick of your own obsessions. Breathe.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mark Force, I've said this before more or less, but I would posit that science is more than a methodology. It's the methodology along with the great body of interdisciplinary knowledge that was acquired using this methodology. I think that scientism is a derogatory term that means nothing.
Eeyonkee,
Science is a methodology, mentally and physically. It is a pursuit of determining what is real as closely as can be determined upon current vetted data from following as closely as possible the scientific method. Those dedicated to science who I have known and worked with are quite clear of the usefulness and value of mechanisn, reductionism, modeling, theory, and other facets of the chase that is science.
It is useful to be clear that a map is not the actual terrrain.
When the limitations of these methods are overlooked, meaning is commonly superimposed upon the observations and data that is beyond the reach of the science itself. This is scientism.
I'm a lover and defender of science. I love the "beginner's mind" -soshin - that appears innate to the lover of pure and unadulturated science. Research in it's pure form isn't about proving your suppositions and prejudices - it's about discovery and challenging what you (think) you know! And, if the results shatter the integrity of something fundamental you've believed to be true about reality, so much the better! That's the juice! It's also about being critical and being clear that all about and even in science that agendas can pervert the observation of what is.
Scientism - the belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry - diminishes, rather than respects, the scientific method and resultant science.
I'll take science over scientism any day.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Me:If over a period of time masters guide your meditative efforts toward a specific result, is this similar to a priest guiding one to God?
MikeL:Your writing is getting sloppy and over-generalized, IMO.
Meant to be a joke. You're just so darn serious. Relax.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Scientism - the belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry
Would you mind giving an example of a "field of inquiry" which isn't suitable for science?
I don't mean cases where direct experimentation would be unethical or impossible. I mean a situation where it would be preferable to approach the unknown with wild, irrational guesswork and dogmatic stubbornness, rather than something like "science" in the broad sense of the term.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jgill: Meant to be a joke.
This medium needs more cues. Subtlety is not easily rendered in 25 words or less. I guess that’s why there is “conversation.”
Bryan: I mean a situation where it would be preferable to approach the unknown with wild, irrational guesswork and dogmatic stubbornness, rather than something like "science" in the broad sense of the term.
A biased characterization, at best. At worst, outright prejudice. (Why don’t you tell us what you really think?)
It’s been argued that all insight is self-arising and not the result of rational, analytical thought. I think it was Bohr who said that the starting point for every discovery was a wild guess. Those so-called “wild irrational guesses” and a will of dogged determination more often looks like scientific practice than sitting in a church being quiet and contemplative.
Direct apprehension for any insight and understanding are essentially unexplainable. Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go when one is finished with them? What are thoughts, anyway. No one apparently can say. Hell, it could be either one hemisphere of the mind “talking” to the other in the authoritative voice of “God” (cf: Julian Jaynes’ “bicameral mind”), or it could be a direct communication from the unconscious. Apparently no one knows. It seems relatively clear, however, that it is not from some little man inside the brain who is little but a computer prioritizing scripts and agendas from a given repetoire in an established database.
Mark,
Impressive explanation. I especially like that you are clear about your position in addition to the explanation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Byran, thanks for posting.
I hope to respond to the subject later.
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re: the value of copy and paste, the value of a global internet, the value of science types like Richard Dawkins who go public beyond their science and get involved in the sociopolitics that interest them
Coincidentally, a copy n paste link from Dawkins just this morning...
"Faris did a public service by translating these barbaric tweets into English, so we can see what decent Arabs have to face. http://bit.ly/2k74q8g What do you think of a religion that has to resort to this in order to survive?"
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Truth is, I rarely copy and paste text. Usually it is links.
But this is too good not to assimilate. This last comment assumes you have an interest in what's happening globally, internationally and not just provincially. (If the latter, just skip it.)
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I especially liked Dawkin's comment concerning what "decent" and/or "atheistic" Arabs have to confront in their own cultures. Just imagine it. Imagine it. It affects me, it draws me, to "get involved" because I consider these science-minded Arab "atheists" to be like-minded types.
Here goes. My longest copy and past of text in quite awhile...
I'm going to translate some tweets in this hashtag #مرتد_حفرالباطن the world must see this. -Faris
Background: (a) An atheist in KSA went public & criticized Islam. He just got sentenced to death. Now look how some Saudis reacted to this. #مرتد_حفرالباطن (b) Link: https://twitter.com/Faris_dream/status/856829788140515328
1. Quran and Hadith are the constitution of KSA. We all know the punishment of apostasy.We won't disobey God to satisfy people. #مرتد_حفرالباطن
2.. If you're lowkey atheist that's fine. But once you talk in public & criticize God or religion, then you shall be punished.
3. Hs should be consulted 3 times, if he didn't change his mind, kill him. This is apostasy punishment in our religion "Islam". #مرتد_حفرالباطن
4.. "I wish there will be live streaming when you cut his head off " #مرتد_حفرالباطن
5. He deserve to die. Please God, let me be Muslim forever. #مرتد_حفرالباطن
6. God willing, your head will fly. That's what freedom brought to you. Also, wait for bigger punishment in the afterlife. #
7. (talking to people in his city) Go dig a hole and bury him. #مرتد_حفرالباطن
8. I demand to cut his head off in public. #مرتد_حفرالباطن
9. if someone criticized your family you'll kill them, but when it comes to God criticizing, it's freedom. (that logic tho) #مرتد_حفرالباطن
10. I've never seen more stupid than Arab atheists! Yes he shall be killed because he's poisoning people's brains. #مرتد_حفرالباطن
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and the list goes on and on. As far as I'm concerned I think guys like this "Faris" are heroes.
Note item #10. Like the rest, it is a tweet by an Arab Islamist or Arab fundamentalist. Yet the words look rather familiar not only from our neighborhood from our ST Fire. No?
If your interest is not just local but global, these issues relating to science and belief remain important. In my view.
Thanks, Richard, for the link. It's important to me to know what people are thinking in other cultures in regards to the subject matter we find interesting if not vital to building a better world.
Richard's link this morning...
https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/938768678367186945
KSA is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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What do you think of a religion that has to resort to this in order to survive?" -Richard Dawkins
It requires criticism. Ultimately, it requires rejection.
Thank goodness today we have the power of the internet to shed light on all of this barbarism both in ideas and practice and to help us move beyond it.
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WBraun
climber
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Background: (a) An atheist in KSA went public & criticized Islam. He just got sentenced to death.
A theist can criticize Islam in public in KSA and will be sentenced to death also.
Your whole arguments on this is 100% ignorant as you ultimately clueless to religion, to begin with ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Werner, did you read #10 above? Sound at all familiar?
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Thanks, Faris, for translating this. You are right, the world outside fundamentalist Islam - whether in or out of KSA - needs to keep abreast of this.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I am also “clueless” about religion. I haven’t a clue why I should believe the fanciful tales upon which religions are based.
I also realize that the billions of people who have faith in these tales will not be swayed by arguments from those who don’t...so I offer none.
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WBraun
climber
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When I was around them we had to stop every day for them to pray to Mecca 5 times a day.
Right after praying to Mecca they started smoking, drinking and doing all sorts st00pid sh!t opposite of their so-called religion. LOL
You should study why India created Pakistan .....
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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The Catholic church used not to allow those accused of heresy (Hus, a prime example, and Wycliffe, another) a chance to speak out in their own defense.
The clerics were that afraid of their claims.
They did the same to those who brought forth ideas like solar-centrism (Galileo).
Religions specialize in using fear and all are invariably cruel. They promise hope and love but they are based on fear and superstition.
I am losing my religion after all these years and it took one book to do it.
"The Swerve" by Stephen Greenblatt (2012).
Carry on my long-winded friends.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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This "Faris" has an interesting home page at twitter.
Here's his "pinned" image and "pinned" tweet. I totally get it. Anyone else?
"The west worked very hard, revolted, spilled blood to bring justice, equality, human rights, to stop church's dictatorship and separate it from state. Today what so called liberals are the ones who fight liberty by advocating an oppressive, dangerous and discriminative ideology."
https://twitter.com/Faris_dream
If you don't get it, I'll help. It totally cries out:
"Liberals, we're on the same side! Help us!!!"
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Fair enough, Mark. Here is the philosopher, Daniel Dennett's, take on Scientism.
It's an all-purpose, wild-card smear...It's the last refuge of the sceptic. When someone puts forward a scientific theory that they really don't like, they just try to discredit it as 'scientism'.
—Daniel Dennett[11]
Also, here is one definition of science from Dictionary.com. It's not just about the methodology.
Systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Thanks, eeyonkee.
I was going to post up about being "hung up" on the scientism "smear".
But I think between you and "Uncle Dennett", it's been handled.
Well done!
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"Thank you for sharing my thread Mr.Dawkins. As an ex-Muslim, I feel obligated to expose the radical part of this ideology and show people the hidden side of it. The fact that those tweets were posted by average Muslims, not ISIS fighters, tells us we have a major issue." -Faris
https://twitter.com/Faris_dream
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I also like what Bryan asked of Mark Force.
Would you mind giving an example of a "field of inquiry" which isn't suitable for science?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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What good does religion do? Good grief, it must do something good for humanity considering it's as ubiquitous as it is. There isn't a culture on earth that doesn't have some religious practice at its base. So what is it that religion does that benefits people?
What some in the science community just don't get is their own hypocritical prejudice toward religion based on the bad actions and intolerance of some of faith’s practitioners. However, look at what science has yielded for humanity: thermonuclear threat, pollution, chemical warfare, a list of killing devices that bend the mind. What I understand is that it isn’t science’s responsibility for the use of its production, but the fallibility of human character that’s the problem and the same is true for religion.
I don’t know what’s so difficult to understand in this regard, but plainly it is.
Scientism is the belief that science will solve all our problems and that, of course, is bunk. Science can’t mend human character. In my humble opinion religion might.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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A metaphor...
The setting: c. 400 A.D.
"What good does oil lamp use do? Good grief, it must do something good for humanity considering it's as ubiquitous as it is. There isn't a culture on earth that doesn't have some oil lamp practice at its base."
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"Scientism is the belief that science will solve all our problems and that, of course, is bunk."
Yes, Paul. Please share your definition with Mark F.
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You should think about reframing your thought process, Paul. Instead of "science" substitute "technology". There will be a study / discipline / field emerging in the future that will address technology's downside and its threats.
Insofar as you impugn science, you also, by extension, impugn knowledge (knowing) even education. I don't think you really want to do this.
Your "religion" is problematic (1) because it is pre-scientific, (2) because its conceptual foundation - here in the West at least - is theology and theology's over and done (even if your average Tom Dick and Mary don't know it yet).
It's the 21st century now. No reasonably educated person, certainly not these educated, up and coming millenials, desire a mythologized belief system. They want a reality-based belief system, evidence-based, reason-based that provides them lifeguidance and community support. Such is emerging. The last thing they will want to do is call this new updated "belief system" of theirs "religion."
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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What good does religion do?
Did, not does.
Many surviving hunter gatherer societies, though superstitious, do not have gods or religions. Storytellers that relate tales emphasizing cooperation and reinforcing their egalitarian societies are among the most popular individuals.
Early religions developed alongside agriculture and the concept of property.
We need to grow up. We don’t need these fairytales anymore; they do more harm than good now.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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A metaphor...
The setting: c. 400 A.D.
"What good does oil lamp use do? Good grief, it must do something good for humanity considering it's as ubiquitous as it is. There isn't a culture on earth that doesn't have some oil lamp practice at its base."
Unlike oil lamps there are still billions using religion effectively. A small fact that seems to be outside your understanding. Your metaphor is anemic to the point of irrelevance. The idea that you see science as a replacement to religion speaks volumes: scientism!
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