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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 13, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
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Again, that humans do bad things to one another is a given... the issue is cause and effect. People kill people for any number of reasons, sometimes even for pleasure or entertainment. Ironically the methodology for discovering and killing witches was remarkably scientific with the presentation of evidence and conclusions drawn from that evidence through repeated demonstration and so on.
Humanity, as a reflection of nature, is inclined, in a very natural way, to be cruel. Does religion make them better, us better? I'm inclined to think so.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
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Humanity, as a reflection of nature, is inclined, in a very natural way, to be cruel.
Nope.
It's pure goodness.
It's when humanity strays from nature is when it becomes cruel ......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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^^^ that's just f--ked! To insinuate from the posts here that Paul has a war on anything only insinuates your lack of understanding?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
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Thank You Lynne for that link!
I'm really proud of Bono for saying that out loud, it is a gimmie for Christians, Grace over Karma. Grace is what has brought Gods children into modern times. And Grace is what will take anyone into infinity ...
This may sound queer to most scientist, but just add the name Jesus to all your hopes and ambitions and see what happens...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2016 - 08:05pm PT
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Fossils are physical evidence of animals and plants that lived a LONG time ago. It isn't a matter of paradigm or mythology
Thank you, Base.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 13, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
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A moment of clarity in the midst of a theological discourse. Admirable.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
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I'm a bit more direct than that. Queer, huh
My hope is that your a bit more than all of that..after all this conversation is about originalism.
"Queer" was never conceived to be regarding toward sexualism.....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
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I struggle to see how you could see it as anything but metaphor.
Well I'm truely excited about your contributions to this thread. Although I would like to hear your ideas of what a metaphors is? In your opinion does a metaphor constitute nothing but truth ?? Or does a metaphor still still constitute questions?
I am stoked as to your contributions here ,Lorenzo!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 13, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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Thanks. Google is your friend
metaphor
[met-uh-fawr, -fer]
noun
1.
a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”.
Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def 1).
2.
something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2016 - 10:11pm PT
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[quote]1.
a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance[/quote
Well if that's scientific, I can presume that what God said He did in a week, that is create the universe. And what science said took 15 bil yrs are both metaphores?
If you can't relate, that's ok.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2016 - 10:34pm PT
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Well if that's scientific, I can presume that what God said He did in a week, that is create the universe. And what science said took 15 bil yrs are both metaphores?
No. That God created the world and the life on it in seven days/stages/periods progressing/evolving from simple to more complex forms of life is a metaphor. That is figurative use of language.
That the earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old based upon radiometric data from terrestrial, lunar, and meteorite samples is an observation. That is literal use of language.
Why is the distinction between literal and figurative such a problem? It's not that hard!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 15, 2016 - 11:48am PT
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Mark Force: “Fossils are physical evidence of animals and plants that lived a LONG time ago. It isn't a matter of paradigm or mythology.” Thank you, Base.
Every word that’s written is a term referring for a concept. Every word.
BB:
Find and read a summary of Lakoff & Johnson’s book: “Metaphors We Live By” (1980). The book is good, but you don’t need to read the book. Their data analysis and argument show that metaphors are in every sentence that’s written. For example, how can I say that a metaphor is “IN” a sentence? How can one “FIGHT” for an argument or point of view? How could I “LIVE UP” to my own expectations? (Why UP? Why are more sophisticated or better ideas expressed as UP?)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 15, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
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He, like many of the rest, doesn't post what his religion or belief is. I wonder about that, but from his posts, I assume he is a Buddhist. The point is, he is a spiritualist.
-----
No cigar on that one, amigo. Chasing spirits is not part of the secular meditation practice of Mike or anyone else I know of. Stop trying to conflate the subjective adventures with any form of religion. These are simply projections, having nothing to do with empirical evidence, nor yet direct experience - unless it is yours. And if you have experience chasing spirits, tell us all about it.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 15, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
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And if you have experience chasing spirits, tell us all about it
I'd love to get my hands on a shred of ectoplasm!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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Then grab your own self ^^^^^
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 15, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
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LOL!!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 15, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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ectoplasm turned out to be cotton gauze
stained with vaginal fluids
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 15, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
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“Fossils are physical evidence of animals and plants that lived a LONG time ago. It isn't a matter of paradigm or mythology.”
~ Base
"Thank you, Base."
~ Mark Force
"Every word that’s written is a term referring for a concept. Every word."
~ MikeL
"Every word written above is referring to a concept."
~ Mark Force
So? Language is a conceptual construct. It's not a big deal. Some use the tool with precision; most don't.
Thoughts, concepts, language, observations, metrics, models, theories are tools. Tools are only as useful as your knowledge about their use and skill in using them. A telescope makes a lousy microscope, but that doesn't mean it's not a wonderful tool if you know how to use it correctly as a telescope.
"What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
~ Morpheus from The Matrix
Yes, I got the memo about 45 years ago while reading the Vedas and Upanishads about our imperfect ability to experience reality as it is. Very few will argue about that point as it is essentially self-evident. So? Awareness of the imperfection and working toward narrowing the gap is sufficient. Talking about the phenomenology surrounding it from a scientific perspective can be interesting. Perpetually rehashing it philosophically just gets boring. Take the lesson, incorporate it, and move on - I have wood to chop and water to haul.
Too much talk can get in the way. Talk is not the sound of rubber meeting the road.
Metaphors....not every communication is a metaphor. If I say, "I am going to chop wood." And, I go and chop wood, I have used the symbols and conceptual framework of language to communicate my intention and the action that will most likely follow. No meaning has necessarily been communicated other than that.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
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then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
If you go along with this then you never even read the Upanishads ....
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