The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Oct 5, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
And blublocer, you've never seen someone die a long agonizing death kept alive by machines and surgeries to the profit of the medical profession when all the patient wanted to was pass peacefully, or you wouldn't hold the view you do, let alone blame one particular political party.

I saw this at an early age as I worked as a nurse's aid in a county nursing home when I was in high school. It had little funding as all the patients were on welfare (before Medicare). Our version of this was to force them to eat when they just wanted to die in peace. One old lady in particular prayed loudly from morning to night, "please God let this be the day I die". To force her to eat, we held her nose shut so she couldn't breathe and then poured liquid soup and jello down her throat. She either had to swallow or choke. Real humane that prolongation of life was!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 5, 2015 - 10:59pm PT
Jan, I did just witness Blitzo commit doctor advised assisted suicide murder, well almost two years ago now. He was on welfare and couldn't get the help he deserved😡

As far as politics, I'm unaffiliated. I pointed at democrates because Fruitys link was referenced by them, that's all. But after all it is their triumph.

Can you reference any other country in history that has made this many laws to leagally kill of its own citizens?
👺
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Oct 5, 2015 - 11:53pm PT
The sad truth about Blitzo is that nothing medicine could do was going to save him, it could only prolong the suffering. There is no cure for what he had and it is extremely painful.

As for other countries and their laws, abortion is legal all over the world except in Muslim and Catholic dominated countries. Assisted death to end suffering is legal all over western Europe and is quietly practiced many other places, including Canada, Australia, and the U.S.

We have no problem helping animals out of their suffering so why is it we feel the need to make humans suffer?

And why is it so many men can get so worked up over abortion but love the idea of capital punishment and going to war? They value a fetus but refer to the deaths of women and children in other countries as collateral damage?

I say the issue is not the preservation of life, but the preservation of male power over women's bodies.

In my ideal world there would be no need for abortions because people would act responsibly, there would be no capital punishment and no war. No one would exploit animals cruelly or kill them for food. Until that happens, we all live with shades of gray.








MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 6, 2015 - 07:14am PT
And please, what scientist is not "literal-minded?"


I'm impressed by your conviction, Paul.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 6, 2015 - 07:48am PT

I say the issue is not the preservation of life, but the preservation of male power over women's bodies.

Hope you don't think this is the Christians motivation for preserving unborn people. It has always been the Christians ideal to not have sex outside of marriage. Just guessing but prolly 59 1/2 out of the 60million abortions have come from simply stooped choices. Holding up a higher moral mindset is about giving people tested and proven avenues to a more dignified lifestyle. It is basic evolution provoked by the environment. 🌈
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:25am PT
"Can't use birth control can't have an abortion, the shaming of unwed mothers, you guys SUCK. You seriously suck."

Thank you, Dingus!

Cheers,
hfcs
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:26am PT
^^^your certainly a see the tree and not the forest type of guy.

Sad you've let your prejudice rule your mind 🙈
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Jan and PSP:

I don’t know if one way is better than another. One gets some interesting group experiences even though one does not “converse” normally with other people sitting, perhaps not unlike one can have some interesting experiences going to a highly ritualized ceremony. The sense of gravitas and meaning can be awesome. On the other hand, taking private retreats is another awesome experience, too. Apples and oranges? Would it perhaps be somewhat dependent upon levels of so-called expertise? Would it be useful for novices to start in groups, and experts to take private retreats?

Who knows whose mind? (That’s kind of a joke for you two.)


Healyje,

You seem to suggest that having a teacher or a leader is stupid, to include following a teacher’s own method of learning.

I’m assuming you are making this criticism specific to meditation? Should I assume that your criticisms do not apply equally to other areas . . . let’s say, science?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 6, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Islam and the Future of Tolerance,
Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz

Available: Today!

"Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz know more about Islam than Reza Aslan, Glenn Greenwald, Karen Armstrong, and all the other smearests of critics of Islam combined, and they prove it in this wonderful short book. With unwavering honesty, they delve into what truly inspires Islamic violence, oppression, and hate, whether it is the Quran, Hadith, or Muslims following Muhammad's example, they aren't afraid to address the true inspiration for radical Islam. Each approaches the subject from their own background, Nawaz as a moderate Muslim, and Harris as a free thinker, to address what can be done to increase tolerance in the Islamic world. This book is vital to both non-Muslims AND Muslims to realize that beliefs matter, motivation matters, religious doctrines matter, and increasing secularism in the Islamic world is essential if Islamic oppression is going to recede. This book is a strong primer that everyone who buys into the hype of 'Islamophobia' should read. It is OKAY and NECESSARY to criticize religion. This book is a much needed critique and discussion that more people ought to have the courage to have."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674088700?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0674088700&linkCode=xm2&tag=wwwsamharri02-20%22
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 6, 2015 - 11:46am PT
^^^so read it,and let's get busy. In your own words please 👨‍❤️‍👨
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Oct 6, 2015 - 11:59am PT
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Oct 6, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
The problem here is that any religion like science itself is only as good or bad as its human practitioners.

Here's a scientific experiment: name five positive things religion does for humanity and five negative things science has done to humanity. Then do the opposite and explain why either science or religion as methodologies or ideas are at fault and not simply the human manipulators and practitioners of those disciplines.

When someone dictates to you what you can and can't do with your body when you're not affecting anyone but yourself it is wrong.

But to paint with a broad critical brush based on the perception of individual human actions against a belief system that promotes love and kindness and has done much positive in the world doesn't help much.

Nobody blames "science" for Dr. Mengele and I don't blame religion for a bunch of testosterone ridden goofballs in the Middle East.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Oct 6, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
W
abortion is legal all over the world except in Muslim and Catholic dominated countries. Assisted death to end suffering is legal all over western Europe and is quietly practiced many other places, including Canada, Australia, and the U.S.

This is a pretty muddled statement which doesn't reflect realities. If you want to talk "quietly practiced" you need to include abortion.


Italy is 88% Catholic and Rome is the center of the Catholic Church, and elective abortion is legal in the first trimester.

Ireland, Argentina, and Brasil ( all overwhelmingly Catholic) allow abortion in cases of rape, incest, or threat to the mothers life.im not sure of Ireland and Brasil, but Argentina includes a couple other exceptions. Most Argentines who seek abortions take the ferry across the Rio de la Plata to Uruguay ( also overwhelmingly Catholic) where abortion is legal in the first 12 weeks.


In the largest Muslim country in the World, Indonesia, abortion is technically illegal, but freely available. 2.4 million abortions were performed there in 2012, with access to clinics available online.

In arguably the most conservative Muslim country in the world, abortion is also available for a price. Abortion can be had in cases of rape or "emotional distress" , which requires the consent of three doctors and a husband or male relative.

The penalty for aborting otherwise is paying blood money to the family of the fetus. So it is available to the rich.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 6, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
Jus the facts,
Abortion Statistics



There are approximately 45 million abortions per year worldwide.

In the US, there have been 40 million since 1973, when abortion was made legal.

There are 126,000 abortions per day worldwide.

In the US each day, there are 4,000 abortions.

Planned Parenthood is the nation's largest abortion provider.

Every fourth unborn child is aborted.

An unborn baby is killed every 20 seconds in America.

Abortion is the most frequently performed surgery in America.

95% of abortions are done as birth control, 1% are done because of rape/incest, 1% because of fetal abnormalities, and 3% due to the mother's health problems.

Abortions outnumber live births in 14 major metropolitan areas.

45% of the women that walk into an abortion clinic have already had at least 1 previous abortion.

Child abuse has gone up 500% since the legalization of abortion.

95% of women who have had an abortion say that the abortion clinic gave them little or no information about the fetus living inside of them.

Many people believe that women who are victims of rape and become pregnant by this violent act is a good reason for them to have an abortion. In Victims and Victors (Acorn Books, 2000), a book written by David Reardon, Amy Sobie, and Julie Makimma, 192 women were interviewed. These women had had abortions after they became pregnant from rape. Nearly all the women said that they regretted the abortion, and over 90% said they would discourage other rape victims from choosing abortion.

49% of pregnancies in America are unplanned. 50% of these unplanned pregnancies are ended by abortion.

55% of women who have abortions have at least one living child already.

43% of women will all have at least 1 abortion by age 45.

There are 50 million abortions performed each year worldwide. Out of these 50 million, 30 million are performed legally.

**52% of females who have abortions are aged 25 or younger. Teens take up 20% and women aged 20-24 take up the remaining 32%.
**
Of women who have abortions, 66% plan to have wanted children in the future.

Black women are 3 times as likely to get an abortions as white women are; Hispanic women are 2 times as likely.

Women who claim to have no part of any religious affiliation are 4 times more likely to have an abortion than women who are religious in some sort of way.

Catholic women are 29% more likely than Protestant women to have an abortion.

Out of all the women who have abortions, 66% are unmarried.

Out of all women who have abortions, 75% say they had an abortion because the baby would have interfered with their life; 66% say that they couldn't have afforded a baby; and 50% said they didn't want to be a single mother or were having problems with their partner.

14,000 abortions are done because of rape/incest. (This only makes up about 1% of all abortions.)

93% of abortions occur in clinics/doctors' offices.

The majority of abortions performed occur at 7-8 weeks into the pregnancy (38%).

16% of abortions are done at 6 weeks or less (even though almost all clinics will not perform abortions less than 6 weeks, because it would be too hard to make sure all the babies' body parts are out).

23% of abortions occur at 9-10 weeks, 11% at 11-12 weeks, 7% at 13-15 weeks, 4% at 16-20 weeks, and 1% for 21-40 weeks.


😭
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 6, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
I wrote this elsewhere... but if one is going to angst over the issue of abortion, one should look at the largest cause of abortion, which is spontaneous. Nature is the largest aborter of life.

As for the question, "what does science have to do with it?" as far as the morality of abortion, one might look at the "natural history" of human reproduction for at least a baseline of what to expect in a "normal" pregnancy.

31% of all conceptions end in miscarriage naturally
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198807283190401

only 50 to 60% of all conceptions advance beyond 20 weeks of gestation
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra000763

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscariage

these estimates may be on the low side
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

"Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant."

This is not to demean the feelings of the "sanctity" of a person, or the potential represented by every conception. However, the most likely outcome of a conception is miscarriage, also referred to as "spontaneous abortion." And it is not uncommon among animals whose reproduction includes similar pregnancies. Humans are not exceptional in this regard, the biology of reproduction is shared across species.

And while I don't think it is necessary to have a religious or philosophical answer to the question: "why is spontaneous abortion so common?" it would seem to be a legitimate question in the context of these debates. Not to make too fine a point of it, one could make the case that "nature" is the largest "abortionist" (using the contemporary rhetoric). Why would that be so?

I fully recognize the complexity of the issues regarding individual liberty. Here the liberty of the mother is balanced against the liberty of the potential person. "Viability" seems to be the current boundary, if there is a societal interest, it cannot extend to the time before the "potentiality" of the person is real, that is, a viable life independent of the mother. The above statistics indicated that independent of the mother's intent, most of the conceptions do not result in persons. Does this mean that society should pursue a program of decreasing the rate of spontaneous abortions to zero in order to assure the liberty of a "potential person"? How that question is answered has to be relevant to this discussion. Taken to its extreme are all gametes subject to protection because they all have the potential to create a person? Should all mothers be provided with free health care, and supported throughout their pregnancy to bring it to a successful conclusion by the society that expresses the interest in that outcome? If society isn't going to do it, does it have any weight in the decision?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Oct 6, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
I don't think anyone should interfere with any decision made between an expectant mother and her doctor. Such things are only the business of the mother.

But isn't it interesting all the agonizing socially/culturally about such decisions. Why are humans so concerned about doing the right thing. Where does all that moral need come form? And please don't recite the evolutionary success mantra; these concerns in all their complexity grow from moral systems that "literally" defy any evolutionary relationship.

Without religion what and how is a moral system? That is what is it based on surely not evolutionary efficiency? Otherwise we would test every pregnancy and abort those with inferior product. Where does freedom come from? Morality? Wisdom? All remarkable human achievements...

Seems to me humanity with its (and in spite of its) awareness of mortality has done something quite remarkable culturally on this planet... good for us.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 6, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
And please don't recite the evolutionary success mantra; these concerns in all their complexity grow from moral systems that "literally" defy any evolutionary relationship.


interesting and very uninformed statement...

for instance, one reason why human females have "hidden estrus" may be to confuse the group of possible males who could have fathered the offspring as to whose offspring it actually is... this reduces the incidences of infanticide among the dominant males (which happens in other apes).

this is definitely an evolutionary strategy of females, child production being a huge investment in their resources.

one can pull that thread a bit to see how the issues involving abortion, and its regulation, play out in modern society... that is, who has control over reproduction...

but the origins of that issue could extend back millions of years and have an evolutionary origin.

In that sort of setting, the morality questions disappear completely and the clearer explanation of "energy use" comes into the fore... while not a "noble" explanation, it is a much more credible one.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Oct 6, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
But evolution's role in human reproduction isn't the issue; it's the role of evolution in a social morality of the good and what that means. The issue is the human ability to rise above the demands of evolution for what is a human consensus of the good.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 6, 2015 - 03:06pm PT


Jan Re the solo vs group retreats. I think they are both wonderful and i don't think a beginner would have much success in a true solo retreat. IMO they just don't have the practice base for it to be a fruitful endeavor.

What I was trying to get at regarding group practice was more about the dynamics of communal living and practicing at the same time (this is what occurs in alot of US zen centers). Communal living in close quarters with numerous people almost immediately brings up personality conflicts. Daily practice in the zen centers typically involves two sitting periods each day one in the AM and in the PM. So along with the inevitable personal conflict comes rigorous practice with monthly retreats. The mix of the two creates a powerful dynamic that can greatly increase the chances of the practitioner to see their own negative habitual patterns and to let them go.

ZM Seung Sahn used to say it was like washing potatoes, if you put a bunch of dirty potatoes in large vat and stir them around they clean themselves; the same in the communal zen center.

Below is the schedule for a three year retreat in nepal. As you can see it is not a casual affair ( not that you thought that, but others may have) of doing what you want for 3 yrs by yourself; it has a very scheduled program and alot of teaching. Each activity is listed and with the number of days dedicated to practicing it listed below it.

i found it very interesting.










The Schedule of Practice
in the Special Six Yogas of Naropa
Three Year Retreat Center

The Practice


Number of Days
1. Vajrakilaya
7
2. The Four Ordinary Foundations
12
3. Prostration and Refuge combined
45
4. Recitation of 100 Syllable Mantra
30
5. Mandala Offering
30
6. Guru Yoga
45
7. Sadhana of Lord Marpa and ritual
33
8. Sadhana of Lord Milarepa
21
9. Sadhana of Lord Gampopa
21
10. Sadhana of Karma Pakshi
21
11. Four Foundations
4
12. The Outer Practice
7
13. The Inner Practice
7
14. The Secret Practice
7
15. The Very Secret Practice
7
16. Long Life Practice
7
17. The Four Activities
1
18. Fire Offering
1
19. Seven Points of Mind Training
15
20. Shamatha Meditation
15
21. Vipashyana Meditation
15
22. Vajrayogini :- outer, inner , secret, mandala, fire offering
194+
23. Chakrasamvara:- Outer, inner, secret, fire offering
150+
24. Six Yogas of Naropa – Four foundations
12
25. Six Yogas – Tumo
60
26. Six Yogas – Illusory Form
25
27. Six Yogas - Dream Yoga
30
28. Six Yogas – Luminosity
21
29. Six Yogas - Bardo
17
30. Six Yogas – Phowa
12
31. Gyalwa Gyamtso – outer, inner, secret,very secret, combined, fire offering
150
32. Amitabha – Outer, Phowa, sadhana ritual, fire offering
32
33. A Feast of Chod pratice, the Precious Garland
10
34. Accomplishing Chod(while remaining seated)
7
35. Fire Offering
1
36. White Tara, the Wish fulfilling Gem
7
37. Sadhana Ritual
7
38. Fire Offering
1

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 6, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
You seem to suggest that having a teacher or a leader is stupid, to include following a teacher’s own method of learning.

I don't see how you could possibly come up with this statement from anything I've said. I haven't in any way put down using groups or teachers if that's your want. But to imply - let alone boldly claim - that the only meditative experiences worth having are in groups with a teacher is just plain so mindlessly stupid it's breathtaking. And to say you need a teacher or even that a teacher is highly advised isn't much better. There's plenty of folks who've found their own way on their own.

Now Largo may be speaking of group synergies and energies, which are fantastic, but those meditative experiences are quite different from those which you can ultimately only have by and through yourself.
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