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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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HFCS said "Anything less is a deal breaker." In other words any thing other than your view of things. This is fundamentalist secularism and misses the wide view. How about also seeing what you have in common with people who believe differently than you. Otherwise you just create more conflict and suffering.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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What happened at or before or if there even was a big bang remains speculation.
a common misunderstanding which is false...
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Norton
Social climber
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Hi Paul,
over thousands of posts by many contributing here one gets a sense if they are theistic,
agnostic or atheist
it helps me personally to have an idea because it can tell me of any bias in their postings
would you mind stating your own beliefs or non beliefs, and if no that's ok I understand
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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What happened at or before or if there even was a big bang remains speculation.
a common misunderstanding which is false...
"If you are doing cosmology it is perfectly legitimate to assume that the universe has no end or beginning in time. The standard model has no end---it continues expanding into the indefinite future. Keep in mind that the standard cosmic model (so-called "LCDM" that pretty much every specialist in observational cosmology uses) might be WRONG. Scientists don't fully believe their models. They continue to challenge and test them to see if they need improvement. The currently accepted LCDM gives an amazingly good fit to the mountains of data that have accumulated from astronomical observation, but it is still merely the best we have so far. Merely the most reliable accurate fit. The fact that the standard model has a beginning--a point in time where it blows up and stops giving reasonable numbers--is widely considered to be a symptom that it is incomplete and needs fixing. It is apparently not applicable at extreme energy density, so it is not trusted. A considerable number of researchers have gotten interested in modifications of the standard cosmic model that include quantum effects on geometry at extreme density around start of expansion, and the modified models do not fail. No odd or "singular" behavior--no "blow-up" at the start of expansion. So in these models time just continues on back, not uncommonly into a contracting phase. Quantum effects at high density cause the contraction to rebound. It's certainly legitimate to assume that the universe goes back indefinitely in time, just as (according to standard LCDM) it goes forward indefinitely into the future. There are models that are time-infinite in both past and future, and which are just as good a fit to the data collected so far---recover the good fit of the LCDM. But it is also legitimate to assume that it does NOT go back indefinitely. Cosmologists have a choice of models to work with (and presumably if they are wise they never fully commit to one or the other ) I'm not talking about "multiverse" stuff. Ordinary cosmology just deals with the universe we experience and with models we can hope to test by comparison with observation. There was a bubble of "multi" speculation in the mid 2000s---peaked sometime around 2003-2008. Since 2008 I've been seeing less and less mention at the professional level (i.e. conference talks and journal articles)."
Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/infinite-and-eternal-universe.694513/
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So what's your point, Paul? that the God of Abraham model as spelled out in the Holy Bible is just as valid as the current science model?
Get real. One is five magnitudes more valid - that's 100k times! - than the other when it comes to explaining the world.
I won't get lost in your minutia - and I would urge others not to either - when you've proven time and again you're not responsive to it in the first place.
I'm reminded here of the great physician and essayist Lewis Thomas. Ever read him?
"Very few see science as the high adventure it really is, the wildest of all explorations ever undertaken by human beings, the chance to catch close views of things never seen before, the shrewdest maneuver for discovering how the world works".
Very few. He sure got that right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Thomas
Time for dinner.
.....
PS PSP you accused me once perhaps a yr or two ago of reading too much into either you or your post.
On that subject, I'd encourage you to reread the post from which you drew that quote. Here, I'll spell it out for you. That was a suggestion to Cragman to enlighten Paul as to HIS values (in truth, not mere myth) and belief.
Point #2: That said however, I do have a belief system, one that I require to be science and fact based. Anything less would be a deal breaker for me. For me. Now if you or anyone else needs, requires, prefers a belief system that is set in fantasy, go for it. It's the free world here. So your potshot at me was silly and baseless too.
A lot of that here from the woo types.
But make no mistake either. To the extent your fantasy-set belief system interferes with my life and lifestyle (in the past via coercion, violence, bloodshed) in the present or future via politics (social moral issues) you will get a proportional response from me and my ilk / clan. Just as you should as I am an active, proactive earth democratic citizen motivated in large measure by a science education and visions (dreams) of a higher civilization still. Comprende?
Now time for dinner. :)
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WBraun
climber
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science as the high adventure it really is, the wildest of all explorations ever undertaken by human beings
Your type of mechanistic science only is not true at all ever.
It leads to pure atheism and pure scientism of which you preach continually just like those crazy right wing evangelists.
You're no better then them and just like them, ..... insane ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So I guess dinner will have to wait a bit longer still.
HFCS said "Anything less is a deal breaker." In other words any thing other than your view of things. This is fundamentalist secularism and misses the wide view. How about also seeing what you have in common with people who believe differently than you. Otherwise you just create more conflict and suffering.
You think Kim Davis (Apostolic Christian) in Kentucky is missing the wider view? Would you be suggesting I pull back on posting in response to (despite) what's going on the world and just turn a blind eye to all the crazies and backward holdouts in America and beyond, otherwise turn a blind eye to all the so-called identity politics arising and underway in America here. Would that be the responsible thing to do? the peaceful thing to do? the courageous thing to do?
Hey remember this guy? Paul Hill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill
He brought his fundamentalism - it's Abrahamic religious fundamentalism - there's no such thing as fundamentalist secularism that's just more "bouffant" that sounds good to the anti-science woo types - to politics and the streets of America. He had a huge impact on my entry into the work I do now so many years ago. In your wisdom apparently aimed at less conflict and suffering should I have just ignored that and everything else going on around me? then and recently? let's see at the time there was also a religious sectarian war in the balkans (Christians vs Muslims) and days after my visit to Luxor an Islam motivated shootout at Hatshepsut. Should I have just ignored all these things and tolerated everything? Is that YOUR solution?
You mentioned you are a geologist by training? So do you have any years under your belt of any kind of formal education in the life sciences, just curious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_massacre
"Others denied Islamist involvement completely."
You don't say!!1
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WBraun
climber
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You think x in Kentucky is missing the wider view?
You're just like her only worst.
She's got the balls to stand up for what she believes right or wrong where's you HFCS will remain an anonymous coward.
You might as well just wear white bed sheet and hood like the KKK does and keep chanting your crazy slogans "It's Ovah fo jahovah"......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Lewis Thomas (1913 - 1993)
The Lives of a Cell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_a_Cell:_Notes_of_a_Biology_Watcher
"The pieces resonate with the underlying theme of the interconnected nature of Earth and all living things."
"Interconnected nature." Interconnectedness. In other words, mechanistic mechanics. In other words, a nature, a Cosmos, bristling in mechanisms.
.....
Hey here's a thought: Were Lewis alive today, he might wonder if we humans aren't the analog of mitochondria. They joined up with eukaryotic cells to produce a synergy (robust life) more than the sum of its parts (so the lead model asserts); similarly we've joined up with machines and AI, and continue to do so at a dizzying rate. The effect: a hybrid with an amazing synergy again (robust life) more than the sum of its parts.
Human beings: A kind of mitochondria?
Our ever growing symbiotic relationship with machines and AI. Truly an amazing thing / development to ponder.
btw, for this reason, I don't think they'll ever replace us. That's just fantasy set science fiction. Very entertaining though. The t-1000s will need us every bit as much as we will need them. So no worries. ;)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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A reasonable, scientific explanation exists describing 13.82 billion years of the universe...
I just heard a wonderful debate over the speed of light may be slowing. And the whole red-shift could be a farse? Isn't actually true that we have recorded the c to be slowing. Speculation that's trying to be theory thinks light at the second of the BB was a billion times faster then it is today. And what we understand as time and energy today was a billion times faster and stronger at the time of the explosion. We can can see this idea by watching a video of the A-bomb or any bomb going off. At the initial bang the energies and time move apart very rapidly, and after a few seconds, minutes they dissipate uniformly.
Ed, do you think this could be conceivable with our BB theory? That maybe what we predict happened in the first say, 5-10 billion yrs may have only taken 5-10 million yrs, or 5-10 thousand yrs. ?
And, is it even reasonable to think that energy, time, speed would stay constant without any sorta decay?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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it's been a while since the populace of the United States believed that lightning bolts were dispatched by divine intervention.
Yeah, since Ben Franklin.
and only since about the dust bowl that Americans believed that rain follows the plow.
A pretty good percent of the populace still think Global warming is bunk and Angels exist, and water in the Central Valley aquifer is endless.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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HFCS said "Point #2: That said however, I do have a belief system, one that I require to be science and fact based. Anything less would be a deal breaker for me. For me. Now if you or anyone else needs, requires, prefers a belief system that is set in fantasy, go for it. It's the free world here. So your potshot at me was silly and baseless too.
A lot of that here from the woo types.
But make no mistake either. To the extent your fantasy-set belief system interferes with my life and lifestyle (in the past via coercion, violence, bloodshed) in the present or future via politics (social moral issues) you will get a proportional response from me and my ilk / clan. Just as you should as I am an active, proactive earth democratic citizen motivated in large measure by a science education and visions (dreams) of a higher civilization still. Comprende?"
So what is more important; your science based belief system or we live in a peaceful world?
Lets say you become the world leader; if you try to force your way (science based belief systems are the only way) you will reap violence. Hate to go here ; but didn't the nazi's think they were science based? Any belief system held "rigidly" will cause suffering for many.
Check out the Dalai Lama the guy is giggling all the time; no rigidity. But he still commands alot of respect.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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With all due respect that's just an absurd post.
Look to Neil deGrasse Tyson or Bill Nye. Both have science-abiding, reason-respecting belief systems. Do they look like anything you describe? World leader? Forcing our beliefs on others? That's just crazy man. Sorry.
Also, the point about the life sciences experience is that the more you have of it, naturally the more you don't ignore it, the more compelling it is as part of your worldview or belief system. That's all. I've had a lot, engineering science and life sciences in equal measure. And it's just so obvious how many fundamentalist Abrahamic religiosos there are in the world who don't take any of it - ANY OF IT - into acct whatsoever. So no wonder there is so much fracture in the world and its politics and it's no wonder it is nigh impossible to come together on any number of social/moral issues.
As far as the Dalai Lama goes, allusion to him in this context is also pretty silly. For starters it's pretty obvious he's got a natural charisma that plays a huge role in his leadership capability. Moreover, apart from the giggles that charm everybody, just what definitive big moves has he accomplished over the course of his life - regarding Tibet, eg, or overcoming disease, slowing the advance of Co2 in the atomosphere, slowing the 6th extinction, getting the world off fossil fuels or promoting humans as a multiplanet species by way of Mars colonization? Huh?
Perhaps he had a hand in the invention of the internet we don't know about? Perhaps he's funded a bunch of 3d printer technology you and I aren't aware of? Was it the Dalai Lama who persuaded Japan to stop hunting cetaceans, whales and dolphins, I cannot remember.**
It didn't go unnoticed that there were several other points you could've addressed much more relevant to moving the conversation but you didn't.
"if you try to force your way (science based belief systems are the only way) you will reap violence. Hate to go here ; but didn't the nazi's think they were science based? -PSP
Yeah, that's it. That's what those of us pushing for a science-BASED worldview (in other words a science education abiding worldview) are itching and hankering for... to force our way... to take over the world!! Of course, that's it. Hey you've done it - congrats! - you've revealed the CONSPIRACY!!
lol
**So apparently the Great Dalai Lama was not involved in the discovery of Apophis either. I just checked. They list its discoverers and he's not amongst them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Hey Lorenzo, thanks for your replies:) I'm looking into them. I haven't been very intrigued over the Dead Sea scrolls cause I'm mostly concerned with what Jesus said. Although the DSS are on exibit right now in LA and I'm trying to make time to go see'em.
Concerning ur last post, do think that because people then didnt understand "the ways of the world" like we intelligent people today, their spirituality is bunk? I ask because you obliviously have knowledge, but you seem to have a distaste toward spirituality. Or maybe a grudge?
If I may ask..
Also, are you male or female? If I may ask.
Won't matter though, if you want privacy
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Male. Lorenzo should have been a clue.
I have no grudge against spirituality. I like to think I have some.
What I object to is when people use magical thinking to explain the world when evidence, however flimsy, exists that gives more rational explanations, and then try to impose those views on others, Or to selectively ignore evidence that does exist, whether pro or con the texts as we have them.
I particularly object to folks who use a salad bar approach ( pick and chose) to religion without trying to understand the context of religious writings and the known context of the times in which those works were written. And when you read those texts, try and figure out how they have been altered in translation over time to "adjust" and unify dogma. It's the differences that count.
You have to try to understand the world view of the folks who wrote those texts. The modern chronological scientific history approach is a pretty recent and isolated thing. It still isn't accepted in a pretty big chunk of the world. Because those works don't match modern world views doesn't mean they have no value.
See the scrolls. I saw pieces of them in NY at the Worlds fair in 1964 before they were translated. They still made an impact. More importantly, read them. They are online in a couple translations. There's a lot of what you know as bible texts, but some differences. The differences are the most interesting part if you ask why good Jews would use them.
It seems clear John the Baptist could have been Essene, and the text show Jesus was a disciple of his or at least recruited his own disciples from John's ( they were cousins).
Josephus, BTW, also has writings on John and gives the best accounts on his death.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Corny, you're frothing. Take a pill. Don't mean nothin'.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Moreover, apart from the giggles that charms everybody, just what definitive big moves has he accomplished over the course of his life - regarding Tibet, eg, or overcoming disease, slowing the advance of Co2 in the atomosphere, slowing the 6th extinction, getting the world off fossil fuels or promoting humans as a multiplanet species by way of Mars colonization? Huh?
Really dude? Tyson is all about charms and giggles while popularizing to the anti-religious crowd. He's smooth in cosmos with q-cards, but I've seen him bumble facts a few times on one on one interviews. Ha. Not to discard what he's doing educational wise.
And regarding those problems that need solving. Their all science based problems! Why would you disregard a spiritual leader for not solving YOUR science founded apocalyptic end of the earth anti nature no mor water no more air extinction scare us into conformity scenario's?? In science there's only one right answer, right? Why not use your ever impressive science background and give us that answer? Mr. Science Guy! BwaaHa
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Hi Norton, I have no idea how fructose came to the conclusion that I thought more people believed in the Bible literally in the 20th century than others?
I think it must have come from a misunderstanding of what I said about Blu's interpretations being a rather modern development which reflects a particular sectarian view of certain forms of modern Protestantism. Of course most people have believed the Bible literally over the centuries, but we wouldn't have several thousand Christian denominations if there was only one obvious literal interpretation.
Beyond that, I said and will say again, the average person is not much concerned with cosmology. How the earth got here is a small concern compared to what is the meaning of human life, what is a good and virtuous life, and what happens after we die.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Beyond that, I said and will say again, the average person is not much concerned with cosmology. How the earth got here is a small concern compared to what is the meaning of human life, what is a good and virtuous life, and what happens after we die.
Couldn't agree more, though there is a relationship between cosmology and the meaning of life.
The truth is that science is powerful as a method for knowing and mythology is powerful as a method of understanding and as a source of wisdom. The exclusion of religion/mythology abandons that wisdom and the abandonment of science excludes a pathway to precise understanding. Mythology must always keep pace with the nature knowledge (science) of a culture but that nature knowledge can never displace completely the anodyne wisdom of myth.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Thanks Mr. Lorenzo. Didn't mean nuth'in by asking, jus though I read otherwise prior.
Your posts are well accepted and cherished from my end :)
I agree that meanings and understandings are paramount within their time and space. With that said, anything Jewish must always be resonated with the Law, and God's judgement through that Law. Until who they believe is the messiah comes, they must continue to live under that Law. If I said that correctly, is that how you understand it?
For me that history is relative and essential for personal growth. It gives me clarification to the nuances of living under the Law and knowing right from wrong. But since I believe the messiah has come and redeemed me from these justifications I no longer live in fear. Fear of the natural order, "where ever there's an action, there's a complete opposite reaction", "eat or be eaten", an eye for an eye, and ALL that. That which pertains to the Law.
Jesus brought the universe Grace. Divine Forgiveness. Without His blessing we are are all held accountable to uphold the Law. There are lots of people living good lives, doing good deeds, but one slip up and their condemned. The Law is unbending. Just like gravity, which is a Law.
Norton doesn't think the NT was written until 100 yrs after Jesus was murdered. But we know actually the books started showing up around 80ad. Reason being after Jesus was gone the priests ordered those associated with Him to be killed also. So most separated and went into hiding. It was then they individually wrote their testimonies. And it's an amazing fact that their so coherent.
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