The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 24, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
You feel there is blood involved?


In Syria and Iraq, yes, as religious/tribal fanatics wield their swords. Not so much on this thread. We are gentle souls, here.

Incidentally, George Will has the best take on the middle east: States which should never have been states are unraveling. Virtually nothing we can do about it regardless of political party.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
May 25, 2015 - 08:37am PT
Impossible as it is to predict the future of the Arab world and the Middle East, it's as impossible to predict the future of politics in our own region. What we believe should happen and what think might happen are our own projections based on our own ideas, fears, and assumptions. Putting our biases and intervention aside, what is the logical progression for that region, a part of the world that has seen the most conflict since WWII and Vietnam?

Ok, I'm done screwing up this post.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 25, 2015 - 11:08am PT

Google plans to eliminate human driving in five years...

http://www.wired.com/2015/05/google-wants-eliminate-human-driving-5-years/?mbid=social_twitter

Here's a self-driving car...


"The car has no steering wheel or pedals, so it’s up to the computer to do all the driving."

Here are two self-driving vitifers (living organisms)...


Each at work expressing agency and/or competency, for better or worse, in the pursuit of a goal.

Self-driving selves - no matter mechanical, electrical or biological - are wholes comprised of parts, each obedient at base to physics and chemistry and physiology, the rules thereof.

That is mechanistic science. I love mechanistic science.

.....

What a cute page...

http://www.boogle.com

What hasn't Google thought of?

"Never tell the truth to those unworthy of it...." -Mark Twain

Mr. Twain!!!1
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 25, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
Each at work expressing agency, competency

i think it relevant Fruity keeps posting this pic. While in awe over the mechanistic movement of these two creatures he loses sight of any moral message. The message one could perceive from this photo is evolution in progress. The strongest will survive, Eat or be eaten. The distinquishing of the weak and the uncontributeable. Taking a closer look at the pic it's easy to recognize the competency of the full grown mature adult male Jaguar in all its strength and speed and cunning tracking down on the newly born, grass eating, unthreatening, unhostile antelope. NOT very honourable any way you dice it! Maybe the Jaguar is the ultimate bully? I realize if one is an attendee to the church of evolution, their moral attitude toward this is, if the strongest survives and natural selection got us humans here then this type of killing, and weeding out the worthless is morally justifiable. If its good for Nature, it must be good for us! But aren't we human's, specifically Americans, becoming enlightened to a more compassionate model over the compenecy model that was thrust upon us? The ancheint idea of killing those opinions and the people that hold them, is, well, Prehistoric! And Immature!! Perhaps only the Elderly in society's are able to recognize this? If so, we need to speak up! When something lands on our plate that isn't to our taste, shall we continue as the child does and push it aside declaring, "I hate this!". Or shall we reason why the distaste, and maybe add some salt?

Today in the USA we have 4 times as many animal shelters as we do human homeless shelters!

WHY??

Recently, the people of LA spent nearly $10,000 to rescue and operate on an old Pitbull dog because it had been discarded from the dog fighting ring. Meanwhile there are Thousands of children who cannot afford to see a dentist.

WHY?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
The idea that a complex animal like a Chetah (sp?) might have some kind of equivalency to a self driving car strikes me as a bit silly. Might as well compare it (the Chetah) to a coffee maker that turns off automatically or better yet a doorknob. Complexity doesn't make for life.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
REPUBLICANS, that's why.


More like human nature... look around the world.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
Yeah, Im sure.
How bout a 787 Dreamliner?
The Hadron Collider?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
Oh yeah.

One could make the argument that the H. Collider is, in fact, more complex as a "machine" than a bacteria. Why isn't it alive? What's the difference twixt the two? The reliance on complexity for AI or life is simply a journey down the wrong road.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 25, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
Nice to see you guys can see through the woo, science illiteracy and hate / hater rhetoric (so immensely pop now amongst esp fund Christians**) as the case may be.



**Understandable. What else do they have to retort with? Facts? Reason? Science? Evidence?

We're witnessing a revolution in belief with each passing day. Exciting times.




The Christians/Muslims say...

"There is no God but Jehovah."

Atheists agree with 2/3 of that.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
Nice to see you guys can see through the woo, science illiteracy and hate / hater rhetoric (so immensely pop now amongst esp fund Christians**) as the case may be.

Not sure who here is the science illiterate hate monger advocating for woo? My best guess is his last name is Strawman.

I'm not a wooist and certainly not a hater and I've had plenty of science but I also see an arrogance in the practitioners of science that serves nobody very well. It's an arrogance that sometimes rivals the certainty of a religious zealot of any stripe. Given the strangeness of our being in this strangest of all possible places it seems remarkable that anyone can claim with certainty that their particular method of knowing will lead us to any kind of certain and final knowledge and that they can then say with perfect certainty there is no final term.
jstan

climber
May 25, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
it seems remarkable that anyone can claim with certainty that their particular method
of knowing will lead us to any kind of certain and final knowledge

I, too, have always found such claims remarkable. Can anyone imagine the arrogance
possessed by those who say, on no data whatsoever, they know for a certainty that I will
burn forever in Hell if I don't obey them and their book?

We have, recently, had a great demonstration for lack of arrogance. One group of people
had measured the polarization possessed by the cosmic microwave background, found the
mode patterns suggesting, for the first time, we had data supporting the existence of gravity
waves generated during the first moments of our universe. Another group found alternatively
those patterns might have been partly generated by light scattering off dust found in the
field of view.

And here is where it got good. The first group was not fully invested in their being "correct
with certainty." They repeated the second group's analysis and agreed dust could have had
an impact, and that they had more work to do.

Science has a very fundamental strategy for dealing with arrogance. Scientists have a goal
that is more important than their goal of proving they are "right".

It is to prove that they could be wrong.

Edit:
And, still, I hear nothing from you about the arrogance of the religious. The bible is their
"method". No comment there? The declining birth rate in Italy is persuasive data suggesting
even there the bible is subject to cherry picking. Any comments on this ongoing breakdown
of that "method"?

And of course there is yesterday's vote in Ireland. The bible as a "method" is looking rather tattered.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 25, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
Certainly not, silly moose!

Even Fruity has a moral or two. But I see different reasonings between the mechanistic and the spiritualist points of view. Most secularist condone to thou shalt not steal. It's easy for the mechanistic to visualize and materialize once they've been ripped off, that it's not good, therefore they agree no one should do it. And the rest of their do's and don'ts come by way of this experimentation. Kinda like the child that keeps playing with fire till he finally gets burned. But for the believer in Christ the rules differ. There is number one, an understanding under love. A trust and belief, then a faith(acting on that belief) that confirms our love is receiprecated. A child can learn a flame burns merely through loving words from a loving relationship. The Truth that fire burns, therefor can be learned one of two ways, materially or spiritually. Spiritual Christians don't take morals such as "thou shalt stay a virgin until your married", handed down by our heavenly Father as to be a fun buster! The mechanistic says, usually after a few drinks, "I want to, now she wants to, it feels good, so why shouldn't we have sex?" or "what if after we're married we don't have fun in bed?" these are again, mechanistic worries sought to relieve the need for pleasure today instead of the painstakingly hard work of planning for a future. The Christian on the other hand hears the loving gesture from our Father above and trusts in that belief of saving oneself's greatest pleasure of the material body for that unique someone that is worth committing a vow toward a lifelong experience, will walk in faith.

In harnessing natures urging to procreate, and the pleasures therein. God shows us a path that brings a higher esteem and value towards the act of sex. With higher esteem and higher goals, maybe brings a higher quality vision of how we want to bring our higher prized offspring into the world!
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
Science has a very fundamental strategy for dealing with arrogance. Scientists have a goal that is more important than their goal of proving they are "right".

What you're saying is that the method itself is infallible because it relies on the discovered fallibility of particular instances. But science may reveal something as certain that is entirely false and is then held as certain truth for an extended period of time prior to the revelation of its falseness and herein lies scientific arrogance: when the "method" itself bestows certainty upon what may or may not be true... I'm not arguing against science, I'm arguing against an arrogance that confuses method with reality.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 25, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
Continently skipping the eye for an eye thing and many, many other horrors?

The eye for an eye thing is really a mediation of practices of absolute retribution and vengeance that are so common to the human race. Someone from a nearby village kills your brother and you can no longer go over to his village and kill everybody in it. Eye for an eye is a constraint on vengeance. Good, considering the historical moment.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 25, 2015 - 04:20pm PT

. Can anyone imagine the arrogance possessed by those who say, on no data whatsoever, they know for a certainty that I will burn forever in Hell

Excuse me, isn't yours to say with fact that ALL of our bodies were onetime in a burning Star?

So how about I say, for certainly your gonna end up buning forever in a star, Although,, i offer you this book declaring to be the life force energy of the entire universe,and the creator of every shape and form. And through His words YOU can become a director of your energies, and a planner of your destiny.

Well, regardless to how someone might twist your arm, by handing you the book, or from the way outfield of threatening your end of existence if you don't : (

The mere fact of the bibles history in mankind should be enough for any researching, reasoning student of mankind. The bible being the oldest, and first published book, is the longest living archive of the evolution of mans humanity. And should be considered as a scientific manual for doctors dealing with personal disorders, societal disorders, every conflict of the mind and heart has been predicted, tested, and tried in the bible. All those Truths are there for the taking and wouldn't you agree, Truth should be shared
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
May 25, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
DMT: The wooists will just change their definition anyway ;)

Much as the scientists will switch theories?

jstan: Science has a very fundamental strategy for dealing with arrogance. Scientists have a goal that is more important than their goal of proving they are "right".

Science says nothing at all about arrogance. What it has to say is about data, metrics, and tests. Arrogance is a human value. Science has nothing to say about human values. I think you’re a little mixed up.

Furthermore, what a person’s or group’s goals are impotent. What matters (if Matter matters) is execution or implementation. If Matter matters, then measurable / observable results is all.

There is no “proving” anything. Not by science, at least.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 25, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
"There is no “proving” anything. Not by science, at least." -MikeL

LOL!

And this from a college professor? Blu I understand. Go-B I understand. Pat Roberson and Westburo baptist I understand.

You should be ashamed. I mean really. You do a great disservice spouting such nonsense.

And how many times have you relied on medicine I wonder? or on satellite communications? or how many times have you trusted in the proofs of science, many and various, flying in an airplane?

Dennett's comment I posted yesterday seems to fit you to a t.


To use your ed in such a way is truly shameful. Just my opinion of course, but one so thankful I have.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 25, 2015 - 04:55pm PT

many other horrors

Your reading from the OT. Theat was written by God's law giver, Moses. He gave them to God's law abiders, the Jews. i'm pretty sure it sez that in the first paragraph. Are you trying to talk about what today's law abiding Jews STILL abide to? And sadly a lot of Christians.. The OT was merely a shadow of things to come, the NT. God told them He would be sending a Messiah. Most Jews are still waiting. They expect He will swop down and destroy all Israel's enemy's and prop them victorious. Christians know He has already come, on a donkey, and proclaimed to "love your enemies!" the Jews ego stood as a blockade to their hearts. They refused to love Gentiles then, and still today. They just call them Palestinian's and Iranian's now.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
May 25, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
HFCS: You should be ashamed. I mean really. You do a great disservice spouting such nonsense.

Tu quoque. You continue to proffer science as what it is not—at least not in theory.

It’s one thing to be dealing with technology, math, and data for instrumental bourgeois purposes. It’s another thing to use science to find truths.

I believe you have experiences with the former, but not that latter.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 25, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
Thanks Dan Dennett. Absurdity is right.

.....

Meanwhile, for all you young millenials out there, check it out
if you haven't already...

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