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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 15, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
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Largo, saying the same thing twice doesn't make it better. ;-)
"Tick"
"Tock"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 15, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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MH2, do you have an actual opinion, or are you merely a rat terrior nipping at the heels of those who do?
Moose said: Largo. First you said materialism = determinism, then you said some materialists believe in determinism.
From my way of thinking, or according to my understanding, materialist and determinists are basically the same animal. I use the word "believe" to connote that such folk are working off beliefs and faith, NOT empirical evidence. Why not man up and put MH2 out of his misery and take a crack at those simple questions? Knitpicking at my wording is a sham, especially from someone whom we expect to be a viable player, not a mere mocker or dodger.
But the real question is: Would you do the wild thing with Ex Machina? Given a blindfold, would "she" seem indistinguishable from the genuine article? Forget Turing - this here is the "acid test."
Seriously, though, this could have been a fantastic movie except it played off the old narrative of the machine outwitting and killing the humanoid.
JL
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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May 15, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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Parsing the whole in search of the whole seems [blank].
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 15, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
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Just laugh and move on. Or back.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
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So many topics, so little time!
"But the real question is: Would you do the wild thing with Ex Machina?" -LG
With Ava? Yes!!!!!!1111
With Kyoko? Yes!!!11
"Forget Turing..." -LG
That's right!
Remember, you heard it here first... The Mrs Turing Test... When Turing is doing the wild thing with Ava, would Mrs Turing get jealous?
Note they are all subjects of the test. Turing. Ava. But most especially, as means of TRULY validating human-level RELEVANCY in Ava... Mrs Turing!
LOL! Now THAT would be the real test!!
You could reverse genders, also. That would work, too. Think about it.
Yeah, I could get jealous.
Thank atheist-God it's only ficton.
Right?
("But honey, they're only AIs. NBD.")
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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May 15, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
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I don't know about all that determinist an undeterministic claptrap, but I only believe in straight up random chaos and disorder. People in church told me from day one that I was going straight to hell unless I did something about it. For having to put up with all that BS I figure God, if there were one, must owe me something big time. So he better send me a bunch of sheep down there and make sure I got some wide boots and some Velcro gloves for when I get there.
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WBraun
climber
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May 15, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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Lord shiva is in charge of the living entities in the mode of ignorance.
Lord Shiva is standing at Cern.
This proves that the gross materialists consciousness is in the mode of ignorance.
Otherwise these so called atheists materially fixated looking for the god particle would never have used Lord Shiva's deity on their premises ....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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May 15, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
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Call it what you will Cranken-Ducks, I think she's art!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 15, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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. . . he is of course talking about a reducible macro model, not an ultimate model that accounts for no-things, from which all things arise (JL)
Jan and Paul (PSP) seem careful to not align themselves with this weird strain of meditational metaphysics. "From which all things arise" is a tell-tale sign of a shuttered mind if not a religious conviction. If it is true that all things reduce to no-thingness, that in itself is not a cogent argument that all things must arise from this emptiness. If I take an egg and break it, it reduces to a disorganized state from which it cannot in reason be risen.
What JL refers to is a God existing at sub-Planck levels that creates matter by raising it up.
In retrospect, JL's previous obsession with Hilbert spaces doesn't seem nearly as bizarre as his current crusade. But who knows? He could be right. His prodigies apparently think so.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 15, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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HFCS:
A critique of the movie, Ex_Machina, written by an engineer who basically says the same thing that Werner is constantly saying: Life can only come from life.
http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/the-cognitive-short-circuit-of-artificial-consciousness/
I like how the article finishes. It reminds me of Paul’s and Sully’s writing here, and it makes the same argument that Largo’s been making about materialism, determinism, and consciousness. Clever writing.
The computer engineer’s dream of birthing a conscious child into the world without the messiness and fragility of life is an infantile delusion; a confused, partial, distorted projection of archetypal images and drives. It is the expression of the male’s hidden aspiration for the female’s divine power of creation. It represents a confused attempt to transcend the deep-seated fear of one’s own nature as a living, breathing entity condemned to death from birth. It embodies a misguided and utterly useless search for the eternal, motivated only by one’s amnesia of one’s own true nature. The fable of artificial consciousness is the imaginary bandaid sought to cover the engineer’s wound of ignorance.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 15, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
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Jgill: If I take an egg and break it, it reduces to a disorganized state from which it cannot in reason be risen.
You’re getting sloppy and confusing yourself. Think.
What becomes disorganized is not the egg but the state of the concept of the egg.
EDIT:
There never was an egg to begin with. There was a phenomenon, and a concept that you attached to it. The phenomenon is illusory even beyond the fact that it was only a thought that appeared to you.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2015 - 07:07am PT
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The engineer's critique of the movie Ex Machina reminds me of hiking in to Mt. Triumph in the North Cascades with Bryan Burdo, when I was complaining about the unlikelihood of a floor covered with snakes in Raiders of the Lost Ark, and Bryan said, "Andy, it's a movie! It's not meant to be realistic."
Bernardo Kastrup does sound like Largo, though, preaching against the heresy of machine consciousness:
For instance, for Haikonen’s machine to be conscious there must already be, from the start, a basic form of consciousness inherent in the basic components of the machine.
Naturally, for this to work it must be the case that there are these ‘bits of consciousness’ already inherent in every bit of matter, otherwise nothing accrues: you can associate zeros with zeros all you like, at the end you will still be left with precisely zero.
As I wrote in my book Why Materialism Is Baloney,
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2015 - 07:48am PT
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re: Bernard Kastrup...
Just ten minutes into researching him, e.g., twitter and his ex machina critique...
http://twitter.com/BernardoKastrup
http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/the-cognitive-short-circuit-of-artificial-consciousness/
etc..
you'll quickly note much common vocabulary between Kastrup, Chopra, Tolle, and Largo. eg., no-thing, materialist dogma, etc..
From first look and see... Kastrup appears staunchly anti-harris, anti-dawkins. But appears he's doing everything he can to get their attention via his tweets referencing them.
.....
Hope you all got the chance... or will get the chance... to catch Aayan Hirsi Ali on the latest Bill Maher. She was terrific.
Once again encouraging the Affleck libs (which includes the likes of Jon Stewart it pains me to say) to get off their asses, to research as necessary, and to actually live up to their creed - i.e., their liberal principles - when it comes to taking the VERY NECESSARY stand against extremist Islam and its bs.
The good news: Efforts are working. Evolution in progress. GP knows more about the atrocious ideology of fundamentalist Islam today than ever before. Tides are turning.
Keep the charge!
.....
We'd all love for their to be a ghost in the machine just as religions (traditional forms of belief) claim there is. But the evidence just doesn't support this claim.
It is what it is.
The good, the bad and the ugly.
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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Ex Machina was so lame, stupid, boring, lifeless and impotent that I couldn't even finish it.
But the evidence just doesn't support this claim.
All the evidence is 100% there of the spiritual soul.
You are a terrible scientist.
Life comes from life ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Ex Machina.
On the imdb scale, it's pulling an 8.1. I'd give it a 6.0 (C grade overall)... 8 for fri nite entertaining... 4 for nothing new in the basics (a lot of Star Trek cliche, eg), 4 for direction, 4 for dialog, 4 for digital/special effects editing.
Could've been better.
.....
WB, you should finish it.
WB, admit it, you downloaded it. A torrent. Through a proxy. Huh?
LOL.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 16, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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I especially enjoyed this simulation of a simulation in the critique:
. . . the mere mimicking, in a computer, of the type of information processing that unfolds in the human brain is no reason whatsoever to believe that the computer is conscious. Here is a rather dramatic analogy to make my point clear: I can simulate in a computer all the chemical reactions that take place in human kidneys. Yet, this is no reason to believe that the computer will start peeing on my desk. A simulation of the phenomenon isn’t the phenomenon.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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Yet, this is no reason to believe that the computer will start peeing on my desk.
You think a machine could not do that? The simulation is like the mind. If you only had a brain, you could not pee, either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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The website hosting Bernardo Kastrup's critque (MikeL link) appears an interesting one...
http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/about/mission/
I'll have to get back to it later today.
MikeL, it appears to be yet another response (work in progress) to the excellent inquiry you posted yesterday...
"I’m always curious of what the model would be that brings all of the fields of study and all of their models into holistic alignment and integration. Where is it?" -MikeL
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKrN8vqAAVg
From the SAND About page...
"The gathering is a celebration of the core truth of our existence – that in our distinct and individualistic arisings and turnings, we are truly not limited, bound, or separate."
Really? We are... not limited, not bound? Not separate? In our arisings and turnings. And that's a core truth of our existence? How would you know?
How about the mayfly? Bound? Limited? How about the abalone living under a rock shelf 100' down in the Monterey Canyon pestered every day by the local octopus determined to prey on it? Not limited? Not separate?
How about any of the 200 girls in Africa recently kidnapped by Boko Haram? Not limited? Not bound?
Sensing a lot of voo.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 16, 2015 - 09:26am PT
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Moosedrool: Have you been watching Matrix recently, MikeL?
MH2: "Andy, it's a movie! It's not meant to be realistic."
The Matrix is probably a better movie than Ex_Machina. It will probably end up more popular, also, because The Matrix touches a fundamental nerve in most viewers.
The conceit in The Matrix is that what appears to be stone-cold solid reality is just an elaborate dream of which everyone is a part. It takes a drug and some mechanical disconnections to pull a being out of The Matrix.
I suspect there is a nerve, sensibility, or intuition in all of us that suspects this might be the case in what we think is reality. At times we get a glimpse of it, just as the boy in the 10 Ox-herding pictures gets a brief glimpse of it. Fast-forward to today’s times in the here and now, and a number of researchers from many disciplinary fields are suggesting the very same thing. Things are not quite what they appear to be, not on the surface, and not way down deep. A lot of social construction going on.
In a manner of speaking, who and what we conventionally think we are, may well be presented indeed as Ex_Machina. We think we’re real, but we are functioning. Experience is a state of mind reliant upon a body and brain, but there is no mind that can be found.
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crankster
Trad climber
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May 16, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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