The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 5, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
So, the fact that you, Largo, are arguing from a philosophical standpoint that this stuff doesn't "make sense" does not impress the college physics crowd around here, I'm guessing.
-


As though my aim was to impress the college physics crowd. Silly rabbit. Or that I am "arguing" as opposed to simply presenting material. Again, this is in my mind a merely diversionary tact away from the simple questions asked and summarily ducked - and that materialsm is woo, that the phenomenon out there that have no mass and no dimensionality are in no way "things," that coming to grips with the experiential realm is an empirical but not discursive process, and that the simple rule that one needs to "shut up and stop calculating" is a facile truth obvious to anyone who makes the honest effort to find out for themselves.

I also think the greatest woo of them all is the belief that truth is held solely in concepts and propositions that one can "prove," and that lest one is actively doing same, you are peddling woo. This of course is nothing more than naked scientism - we can easily see why.

But the question remains: What happens when you shut up and stop calculating? What instantly happens to our vaunted things? "Who' is observing? These questions-of-the-ages will not yield to mere measurements, though if a hammer is all you have in your toolbox, "mind" will appear as a nail.

JL
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 6, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
. . . the fact that everything that exists can be understood as a rate of change


I'm not sure everything can be understood as a rate of change:...

Enlighten us then. I just remember thinking that a lot when I took calculus. Did you not?


Anything that is not "a rate of change", like a piece of rock in my driveway. It may change over a great time period, but it is not "a rate of change" itself. It is a rock. I see what you are getting at, but you're not clear in your presentation.

Please explain in more detail what is inside a "Planck sphere." If there is "no physical extent" you have supported JL's statements. He will be pleased.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 6, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
Again, this is in my mind a merely diversionary tact away...

OHHHHH, so that's what it is. I think I'm beginning to easily see why, at last.
WindRiverWildman

Trad climber
May 6, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
I'm a geophysicist - so I'm guilty of being a scientist.

Religions are often very dogmatic. However, over the past several years, I realized how close-minded and dogmatic scientists and science can be. I was reading about dark matter and dark energy and also Stephen Hawking and his staunch anti-religious stance when I came to this conclusion.

Dark matter and dark energy makes up 75% of the universe. We can't detect it and don't understand what it is - we only know of it's existence because of it's affects on the normal, visible matter in the universe.

That means we only understand less than 25% of the universe (since we don't understand all of the 25% we can observe). That leaves significant room for all kinds of "things" to be possible - even a God.

There are many concepts in science which support core concepts in what I call "faith" rather than religion.

To use Christianity as an example - it says the universe was created which agrees with the big bang. Christianity also has the concept of heaven and hell - other "dimensions" living beings go to when they die. The current M-theory of the universe is an 11-dimensional space - are heaven and hell one of these dimensions? Or are they the parallel universes which our current mathematical theories of the universe say co-exist with our own?

Einstein's famous equation E = mc(squared) says that energy and mass are the same thing and each can be transformed into the other. Christians say Christ was the spirit (energy) of God transformed into man (mass) and then back into spirit (energy).

I'm not arguing for or against religion - only that we should accept that it is possible that God exists. It is beyond man's capabilities to prove or disprove God's existence.

From the religious viewpoint, perhaps evolution is the way God created all things. Evolution gave rise to all the wonderful creatures present and past - blue-green algae, dinosaurs, man. Perhaps physics is the way God designed the universe - and physics provides us a glimpse into the wonderful and sometimes bizarre way the universe works. These don't lessen the "glory of God" but makes his glory even more miraculous.

But the dogmas that exist in both religion and science lead to perspectives which inhibit our ability to be humble and accept perspectives other than our own.
jstan

climber
May 6, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
You all deserve a break. Here is an email I just sent out to the Team here in JT.





At the last meeting of the CT several people expressed an interest in doing a rump session on Aberdeen or Yucca Mesa.
Residents on Yucca Mesa were also up to do a dump clean-up off Security. So we will be meeting at

62(North side) and Yucca Mesa at 9AM Friday May 8

By Friday we will know which we will be doing and can move to the target location.

Progress note:
Wednesday the MBCA cleaned up Sun Ray and 62. Afterwards Steve, his hands closing convulsively said,

"MORE! I want to do more. Is THIS all you have?"


I allowed as how I had a sofa abandoned near the site of the CT's Aberdeen dump adventure of a year ago, so we went there right away. The sofa put up a spirited fight but, well you can guess....

I did keep all to myself three mattresses on Douglas off Yucca Mesa. One of the mattresses was so large any sleeper using it would need to have a golf cart handy. I got all but the south forty done Wednesday and will do the remainder tomorrow.

Still looking for the golf cart though.
John


Edit:
That collection is now all cleaned up. There are two bigger collections several hundred yards to the North. Probably 6 of us will hit those Friday. The biggest has an 8 foot hot tub.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 6, 2015 - 11:26pm PT
WRW,
Thank you for that very clearly written list of thoughts!
I agree with your propositions as they may very well be God's plan
I certainly know there's God, He's proven Himself to me.
And He'll show you if you just ask Jesus:^)



Jstan, I'd love to be there,but Im scheduled to work at that time.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
May 6, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
Yes thanks, WRW. I've been saying similar things for several years on this thread though probably not as articulately. Since I'm a social scientist, I have less credibility with this crowd. I'm more attuned to the eastern views of these questions but try to keep an open mind to all. In an eleven dimensional universe there's room for everybody. Not to mention that all the great scriptures of the world say one of man's greatest failings is his lack of humility.
allapah

climber
May 6, 2015 - 11:43pm PT
jammer- yes to the holographic hologram...great paragraph... any addendum as to how woo-related phenomena propagate through the projection?
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
May 7, 2015 - 04:03am PT
'Our Own Way'

Everyone to no surprise
On 'What is Mind'
And so in kind
'Religion vs Science'
Repeats their stated points
In time with little change
For year on end
There's nothing strange
About the show
Or parts we play

We dare not budge
Or show our cards
But waffle and equivocate
To hedge and then prevaricate
The madness we express

So stultifying to the glass
The broken mirror swept away
To grind the crystal into dust
Like beige white grey
The summer sands
Along our summers highway

We have to have it our own way
Returning to the same crossroads
We championed in our youth
Holding fast to places fixed
Foot stuck in the mix.

-bushman

Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
May 7, 2015 - 04:31am PT

Excerpts from 'The Dark World'

"Long before the birth of light there was darkness, and from that darkness came the Dark Elves. Millennia ago the most ruthless of their kind, Malekith, sought to transform our universe back into one of eternal night. Such evil was blossomed through the power of the Aether, an ancient force of infinite destruction.

There are relics that predate the universe itself. The Nine Realms are not eternal. They had a dawn as they will have a dusk.
But before that dawn the dark forces, the Dark Elves, reigned absolute and unchallenged.
"Born of eternal night, the Dark Elves comes to steal away your light."
Their leader, Malekith made a weapon out of that darkness, it was called the Aether. While the other relics often appeared as stones, the Aether is fluid and ever changing. It changes matter into dark matter and seeks out to host bodies, drawing strength from their life force. Malekith sought to use the Aether's power to return the universe to one of darkness. But after eternities of blood shed my father, Bor, finally triumphed, ushering in a peace that lasted a thousand years. He killed them all.

The Aether was said to have been destroyed with them and yet here it is."

-Odin

Ain't mythology grand?
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
May 7, 2015 - 11:16am PT
WindRiverWildman wrote:

"It is beyond man's capabilities to prove or disprove God's existence."

That about sums it all up - at least for me. We are not the be-all, end-all of evolution, just another imperfect product constructed within the limits created by being the ancestor of something else. There may never ben another sentient being anymore capable than us of comprehending and ascertaining truth. Then again ….
WindRiverWildman

Trad climber
N. Colorado
May 7, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
Sorry to break it to you, DMT, but we will NEVER rule the universe.

We will go extinct just like 99.9% of the species which ever existed on Earth (look it up). We will destroy ourselves, another asteroid will impact the earth, or ultimately the sun will go through it's red giant phase and fry the earth.

Even if we develop the technology to escape the earth and the solar system, according to the theories of dark matter/dark energy, the ultimate end will come with the force of dark energy causing the "big rip" which will tear matter itself apart...
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
Humanity never goes extinct.

Humanity is ultimately controlled by God.

Stupid scientist think there's no God.

They are ultimately idiots .....
WindRiverWildman

Trad climber
N. Colorado
May 7, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
You don't know my paygrade....
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 7, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
What is inside a Planck sphere? It's just everything "not in this moment". The dark matter and the dark energy. So it's the potential values of those field locations not expressed right now (jammer)

JL, please run this by your CalTech friends for a possible second opinion.


;>\
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 7, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
We must, to assume our rightful place as rulers of the universe.

Oh so true... what else can we do? We as productions of the universe are the only entity we know of existing within that universe that actually "understands" its and our own structure at least to some degree.

The kingdom of heaven is set upon the earth but men do not see it... that the ultimate force of the universe is vital in each of us... call it god, call it energy, call it whatever you want it's just words but words can't touch it: the knee crooking joy and mystery of being gnaws at all our certainty.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 7, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
Hundreds of people are lined up willing to pay millions of dollars to be on first unreturnable trip to Mars. A 7mo trip in a bus eating powerbars. When they get there they'll spend the rest of there short life in a 6in thick suit.

Is this the ultimate quest that we should be instiling in young sceintist's mind's?

One 34yro female scientist married, mother of 2, who made the 1st round cut for yhe mission was asked; "Is your family behind you?" She said, "We are a family of adventurers. If they weren't behind me I wouldn't go!"

First scenario ive heard where an 8 and 10 yro have a positive outlook for mommy committing suicide 8^(
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
May 8, 2015 - 06:13am PT

May 7, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
Hundreds of people are lined up willing to pay millions of dollars to be on first unreturnable trip to Mars. A 7mo trip in a bus eating powerbars. When they get there they'll spend the rest of there short life in a 6in thick suit.

Is this the ultimate quest that we should be instiling in young sceintist's mind's?

One 34yro female scientist married, mother of 2, who made the 1st round cut for yhe mission was asked; "Is your family behind you?" She said, "We are a family of adventurers. If they weren't behind me I wouldn't go!"

First scenario ive heard where an 8 and 10 yro have a positive outlook for mommy committing suicide.(

Aren't we a bunch of old fogies here, Blue?

We older (ages 20 to 100) folk are so hard stuck set in our ways about the the coming generations and what might transpire on the human front. We are producing en mass a progeny that is faced with living on an overpopulated planet on the verge of ecological collapse. They are set on this earth amidst a civilization that is ideological ripping itself apart; opposing religious beliefs, opposing political beliefs, opposing economical strategies, with enormous economical disparities.

Civilization is set against itself on coliseum earth in a barbaric suicidal death match to see who will tap out first; will the old world fundamentalist abrahamic religious fanatics who burn through people and resources in their genicidal and planetary ecosystem extingushing crusade to prove to whoever is left that theirs is the one true God win out?, or will the political military industrial financial machine controlled by the rich and powerful of the planet win by continuing to provide both the disease and the cure for all of humanity's disfunctions until a mutant zombie cyborg slave class work force has been established to maintain the robots, computers, factories, machines, and infrastructure of planet Borg?

We don't like these our mad children with their hip hop music, gangs, drugs, tatoos, piercings, electronic lifestyle, slang, disrespect, and crazy dreams with their rockets and ion drive engines, their asteroid mining probes and one way suicidal expeditions to explore inhospitable world's. My grandparents thought that reading comic books would rot my mind, that listening to Beatles music would send me to hell, and that rock climbing was reckless and foolish. Maybe they were right?

It's all too familiar from generation to generation, the difference being that the 'civilization' we are passing down to them is becoming all that more insane.

Whether we just die and leave them the keys and the house in a wreck and a shambles and then expect them to try and sort it all out, molding their lives according to our outdated philosophical beliefs, or we try to educate them and provide them with every possible opportunity to survive the melee and advance their species in whatever form it will evolve to, what the young people and future generations of the world do is their business and we can't blame them for hating us and seeing us as the enemy.

The kids are all right.

-bushman
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 8, 2015 - 06:52am PT


A Book of New England Legends and Folk Lore in Prose and Poetry

Samuel Adams Drake

1883
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
May 8, 2015 - 07:34am PT

"Who's my favorite dog?"

Might the juggernaut of runaway human technology derail the runaway train of the unevolved human mind provided that the domesticated canine associate should remain to lick and soothe the wounds of the domesticated savage human beast thence more.

-bushman
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