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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Yes judgment is an integral part of morals.
Dogs can make moral judgments
The question is "are the judgments being made by Human (Religious morals)",
or through natural processes.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Is not a dog also unique in its way?
Is not a dog also capable of love?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^yeah, along with tastes,sounds,styles,abilities,smells,...
aren't you even being J when you cross pollinate?
how about when you rate a climb?
i mean come'on dude! it's not a bad word
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Rating a climb maybe a judgment call, and a consensus or opinion.
Judgments made with religious overtones are manmade, they are not natural in the truest sense because they are biased from the get go.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Hmmm, what is a natural morality as opposed to a "religious" one? Wouldn't all morality be "natural" if it occurs within the context of "natural" beings? How are the biases of humans any different than those of other animals?
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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'Judgement'
Ezekiel 25:17
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
"That's some cold-blooded sh#t to say to a motherf%cker before you pop a cap in someone's @ss."
-pulp fiction
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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In the modern collectivist state, it's not a question of moral judgement per se , it's more a question of who does the judging. In this regard the novel millenarian idea that the state ,or "the collective" is "progressively" and psychologically transformed into a not-so-radical departure from earlier monolithic religious authority---became a theme not lost on many notable 19th and early 20th century intellectuals. George Orwell immediately comes to mind when he fictionally fashioned a totalitarian world in which ordinary "citizens" need not worry their harried little selves with such demanding moral obligations ,in the form of autonomous considerations ,as 'right or wrong'. Such things were, after all, the sacred domain of "big brother" who only operated with the best interests of the greater social order in mind. In fact , what was good for the social order was good for all within it , and the only good. Moral authority is invested entirely in the state.
In effect , the state ,with the modus operandi of this greater good always in mind, becomes, by stages ,the new God, who rigidly enforces its unavoidable diktats with a turgid regime of 'political correctness' : a not-so-disguised psychological replacement for the traditional censure of "original sin"
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Base: it is a good idea to study other forms of life, and other forms of intelligence. We can clearly see consciousness in thousands of species. They are self aware . . . .
Let’s be clear just what you mean by this term you use: “self aware.” Do you imply that there is awareness of a self as you would refer to self, in all its existential and studied complexity?
1. Do you mean that other forms of life are conscious? They are aware (in numerous ways) of the environment (light, heat, or even predators) they inhabit?
2. Or, do you also mean that other forms of life are aware that they are aware—that they are self-reflective, in fullness? That they know and they know that they know?
When being develops self-reflection, it is then that it starts to develop the characteristics of a studied civilization.
Our various concerns over less-than-advanced human beings seem to be about a lack of understanding of self, of other men and women from other parts of the world, from a lack of inclusiveness with other life on this planet. Is that what you believe that animals exhibit?
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Craig Fry: Everything in our natural universe is unique
every rock is unique, every grain of sand
and every human and every other living thing, they are all unique in that none of them are the same in every detail..
I collect fine crystal specimens, every piece is different in too many ways to describe, and they are obviously less complex than any living thing.
Same with succulents, every one is unique in some way.
I can take a cutting from a plant and grow it in a different pot, now it is unique.
Oh, thank you. ^^ Yes, every expression of life is unique, as is every expression of existence. I don't think nature strives for any sort of absolute uniformity.
It may be possible that some humans think they have experienced free will and possess free will, while other humans think they do not experience free will or possess free will. There is no reason to assume it is a uniform experience of all humans. But it is interesting to find out how other individuals perceive FW, whether they believe they possess FW or not.
Thank you.
feralfae
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Wouldn't all morality be "natural" if it occurs within the context of "natural" beings?
Hmm, are you trolling this one?
i mean lots of animals steal from each other without hesitation. Like birds and cubs and monkeys and such. And the dominate male in herds has sex with all the cows/gals.
they obviously don't consider those in bad taste?
how long would man last if these things were the societal norm
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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When human beings show a lack of inclusiveness towards the earth's ecosystem, in not respecting the nessesary contributions of all life forms, it is a perverted kind of self destructive judgement, misdirected and malignant in its disregard for the credo;
"The needs of the many, outweighs the needs of the few."
-Spock
Our intelect and evolution brings with it the social and biogical imperative of assuming now if not too late the duty of planetary custodian and our work's cut out for us in convincing our human cohabitants to get on board.
A god, if there are any, will not sort this problem out for us.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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it is a perverted kind of self destructive judgement, misdirected and malignant in its disregard for the credo;
mind elaborating on this "credo"? is that natural
and the self destructive judgement, yeah i am enamored with why man continues to smoke,drink,do drugs,drive without a seat belt, stop learning... when we know of all the negative aspects, and having no positive outcome.
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WBraun
climber
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A god, if there are any, will not sort this problem out for us.
How would you know what God is thinking.
You don't even know what your neighbor is thinking.
You're putting your own words into his mouth, imitating and playing God.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan: . . . [I question] whether the states experienced [mystically or via psychedelics] in both are a reversion to a more primitive function of the brain or represent an ongoing more advanced evolutionary change.
Jgill gave us a pointer.
When you are dreaming, it all seems rather natural. You don’t really notice that it’s bizarre or a bit odd. What seems to be your self is some kind of function simply reacting to its drama. Then you somehow come to realize (awareness of self, or reflection) that you are in a dream.
Awareness appears to be infinitely layered. It starts with instinct; then it adds another layer called emotion. Then it adds another layer called myth or story. Then it adds another layer called reason. Next we seem to becoming aware of an interactive engagement with everything around us. (We don’t have a term for it yet.) We’ve arrived at a pinnacle with the full development of ego (autonomy and will), but now we’re starting to see beyond our own individualistic awareness of self.
Everything that you’ve learned and become are little micro-steps in increased awareness. To call them “states” suggests that such reframing is only psychological. Reframing of the kind the NYT’s article refers to is a radical reformulation beyond psychology. It’s showing up in many fields of study beyond psychology.
Dzogchen masters and others say that the most radical reformulation is no formulation at all.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I've long had an interest in the nature of time, from both physical and psychological perspectives. Although the latest ideas from physics elude me, on a daily basis I study certain mathematical processes that range from the infinitesimal to the infinite, with Zeno's Paradox of an infinite number of actions in a finite time period paramount.
Of course, in the real world of computers "infinity" and "infinitesimal" simply mean "real large" or "real small". When I "approximate" an infinite process I rarely go beyond a million iterations, for to go further doesn't improve the accuracy of my calculations.
As to the question whether there is a "smallest" granule of time - Planck time (smallest time between events) or chronon (particle of time with measurement dependent upon the system) - that's a subject for physicists to ponder.
I thought of these things as I read a short commentary today in the latest Princeton University Press catalogue of mathematics books. Since we frequently discuss the difference between "labcoats" and "classics recluses" This might be of interest:
"On April 6, 1922, in Paris, Albert Einstein and Henri Bergson publicly debated the nature of time. Einstein considered Bergson’s theory of time to be a soft, psychological notion, irreconcilable with the quantitative realities of physics. Bergson, who gained fame as a philosopher by arguing that time should not be understood exclusively through the lens of science, criticized Einstein’s theory of time for being a metaphysics grafted on to science, one that ignored the intuitive aspects of time. The Physicist and the Philosopher (Jimena Canales) tells the remarkable story of how this explosive debate transformed our understanding of time and drove a rift between science and the humanities that persists today."
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Ok Werner, you're right, I don' know what God is thinking.
In my humble opinion I believe we are on our own in sorting out this mess.
Bluey, the Spock's dying words could be our credo.
We have to 'own' that humans put the planet in peril and humans have to try to fix it.
The other life forms didn't break the planet, capable or not.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Humans are hardly unique, but - from a viral, fungal and bacteria perspective - we are now an abundant feedstock and we deliver ourselves pretty much everywhere to boot.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Our intelect and evolution brings with it the social and biogical imperative of assuming now if not too late the duty of planetary custodian and our work's cut out for us in convincing our human cohabitants to get on board.
We have very recently become aware of this. But for awhile now we/man have been learning how to be god. A "god" with respects to being able to create our own universe, or castle, or home, and village. In a sense aren't we a type of "god" in the upbringing of our children. Atleast till the age of 18 we are legally responsible and judgemental over everything they do. In a way we are responsible for their character. isn't that "god"-like?
Maybe we've graduated, and God is giving us the reigns over Nature. And allowing us to experience a little more of His job?
when my Dad started me out building houses. He only gave me a hammer and a pencil. He wouldn't let me touch a saw for atleast a year!
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Henri Bergson
A very influential thinker in his time. Kinda unfortunate that Bergson has been largely forgotten; or so it seems.
He believed that knowledge and reality were largely intuitive and experiential .
Bergson formulated some very important and creative ideas intersecting both science and philosophy.
A major thinker in the history of western philosophy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Our intelect and evolution brings with it the social and biogical imperative of assuming now if not too late the duty of planetary custodian...
Yep, way, way too late. It's long been surmised that, out and about in the universe, the first basic test of an 'advanced' civilization is to survive itself. It's a test we are flunking badly based on population demographics alone.
[ And what sort of moronic god would allow a population to go from the biblical 2 to 7 billion? ]
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