The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 10, 2019 - 11:52am PT
Excerpt from The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives...

"I have tried in this book to present the basic concepts of randomness, to illustrate how they apply to human affairs, and to present my view that its effects are largely overlooked in our interpretations of events and in our expectations and decisions. It may come as an epiphany merely to recognize the ubiquitous role of random processes in our lives; the true power of the theory of random processes, however, lies in the fact that once we understand the nature of random processes, we can alter the way we perceive the events that happen around us.

The psychologist David Rosenhan wrote that “once a person is abnormal, all of his other behaviors and characteristics are colored by that label.” The same applies for stardom, for many other labels of success, and for those of failure. We judge people and initiatives by their results, and we expect events to happen for good, understandable reasons. But our clear visions of inevitability are often only illusions. I wrote this book in the belief that we can reorganize our thinking in the face of uncertainty. We can improve our skill at decision making and tame some of the biases that lead us to make poor judgments and poor choices. We can seek to understand people’s qualities or the qualities of a situation quite apart from the results they attain, and we can learn to judge decisions by the spectrum of potential outcomes they might have produced rather than by the particular result that actually occurred."

Leonard Mlodinow

...

Example: It's fascinating to consider probability science and "how randomness rules our lives" (along with Mlodinow's anecdotes in randomness in this great book of his) in conjunction with thinking about Honnold's Free Solo and the countless variables in "sample space" he needed to negotiate / work through on the way to his breath-taking achievement.

"We do what we can until our destiny is revealed to us." -Algren

One thing about the modern scientific worldview is that it gives you endless material to meditate on - not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but nonetheless many. And to meditate on - not in the vipassana sense but in the contemplative, introspective, imaginative, creative senses.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 10, 2019 - 02:29pm PT
" And to meditate on - not in the vipassana sense but in the contemplative, introspective, imaginative, creative senses."


Good point. As MikeL pointed out, playfulness helps, too.
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2019 - 03:18pm PT
"We do what we can until our destiny is revealed to us." -Algren

The gross materialist's destiny is endless cycle of birth death disease and old age in various material bodies and not all on this planet nor in human bodies.

Endless cycle of birth death disease and old age in various material bodies is NOT the goal.

The gross materialist's scientists waste all their time manipulating and contemplating dead matter all while believing that is the goal.

The gross materialist's scientist misleads all of humanity due to the cluelessness of life itself into more and more material bondage ......
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Mar 10, 2019 - 03:22pm PT
Why do disease and old age come after death, Werner?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2019 - 03:29pm PT
They don't come after.

Birth, death, disease, and old age are the four main defects of materially conditioned living entities.

We are not Material.

Life is never material nor has it ever been material.

Life always comes from life.

The gross materialist's scientists are in the greatest illusion of them all, all while completely misleading humanity .....
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Mar 11, 2019 - 06:27am PT
Got it, thanks.

DMT
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Mar 11, 2019 - 11:32am PT

We are not Material.

Even Madonna?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 11, 2019 - 07:07pm PT
Here's a closing comment from Daniel Duane (NYT) about Alex Honnold's FS achievement. I just wanted to leave it here...

"Reasonable people consider projects like these idiotic to the point of outrage. That is perfectly defensible. Honnold doesn’t have children, but he does have a mother who loves him very much. If you count yourself among those inclined to negative judgment, and even if you don’t, I hope you’ll indulge a mental exercise for fun. Allow your mind to relax into the possibility that Honnold’s climb was not reckless at all — that he really was born with unique neural architecture and physical gifts, and that his years of dedication really did develop those gifts to the point that he could not only make every move on El Capitan without rest, he could do so with a tolerably minuscule chance of falling. Viewed in that light, Honnold’s free-solo of El Capitan represents a miraculous opportunity for the rest of us to experience what you might call the human sublime — a performance so far beyond our current understanding of our physical and mental potential that it provokes a pleasurable sensation of mystified awe right alongside the inevitable nausea."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/opinion/el-capitan-my-el-capitan.html?module=inline
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:45am PT
. . . a performance so far beyond our current understanding of our physical and mental potential that it provokes a pleasurable sensation of mystified awe right alongside the inevitable nausea."


I too am awed by Alex's achievement. I'm also awed by a great number of almost incomprehensible or improbable achievements outside of climbing in every area of life: in music, painting, writing, academic theory-building, running sub 4-minute miles, cutting-edge mathematics, the miracle of the production of life, and so on.

Is our experience of our own lives so paltry that we must have heroes?

It could be safe to say that every professional athlete is a freak of nature.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 12, 2019 - 06:59pm PT
re: the coddling of college students

Hey SJW,

If you want to dispute the narrative that students are overprotected at elite liberal arts colleges such as Sarah Lawrence, you probably should not put a demand for unlimited free fabric softener in your third demand (out of more than 90) to the president. Just sayin.

http://www.sarahlawrencephoenix.com/campus/2019/3/11/demands-westlands-sit-in-50-years-of-shame

Demand that Sarah Lawrence provide unlimited free fabric softener.

Woke.

tags: 1 "grievance studies" 2 feminist geology 3 liberal arts colleges 4 the coddling of the American mind
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Mar 12, 2019 - 07:27pm PT
If you want to dispute the narrative that students are overprotected at elite liberal arts colleges such as Sarah Lawrence, you probably should not put a demand for unlimited free fabric softener in your third demand (out of more than 90) to the president. Just sayin.

Once again a ludicrous exaggeration then applied as a broad and inappropriate generalization. A very uncritical method of argument.

Sarah Lawrence is a fine school that has been the base of a number of remarkable mentors including J. Campbell. Disparaging an institution based on the acts of a few of its students: ridiculous. Your complaints are based on your prejudices and biases and not much more.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:29pm PT
Once again a ludicrous exaggeration then applied as a broad and inappropriate generalization...

What is it, Paul, are you just not aware of what's going on in all these subjects (e.g., social sciences, humanities) or venues (various liberal arts colleges, e.g., Evergreen, Portland, Yale, etc). I really can't figure it.

Caring people who actually pay attention to these things, who follow this stuff, and are genuinely concerned about these various subjects care enough - they care enough - to critique them where they are falling short as means to trying to help bring some quality control to them where needed and raise performance.

With you it is as if the mere mention of certain words here by a "science type" triggers in you that proverbial knee jerk reaction / partisan response. Subjects and fields need critiquing, they need being subject to open discussion and error-correcting selection processes or they do not advance.

I really can't figure you out here. Really whether it's religion in the modern world... or social science or humanities... or colleges and their admin. Where is the deeper, nuanced thinking on your part? the due dilgence? in regards to both the specifics at various levels and the big picture. If you're sincerely so concerned about the fates of these entities. I just don't see it.

It reminds me a bit of Bill Maher who's always having to explain to a certain clique every so often and fend off the criticism - You hate America! Why do you hate America? - that it is just the opposite, that he loves America, and that this is precisely why he critiques it where it needs critiquing. To raise quality control. To advance it. To raise performance.

If you think I do not care about the state and future of the social sciences and the humanities, you are mistaken. Imo, you ought to dig a little deeper sometimes on these many issues and current affairs; I can't help thinking your response might then be different. But then again, perhaps it is something else altogether.

Disparaging an institution based on the acts of a few of its students: ridiculous.

Curious, did you even visit the link? or research this current topic in the news?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:46pm PT
FYI,

The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas are Setting Up A Generation of Failure

by Jonathan Haidt


https://www.amazon.com/s?k=coddling+of+america&crid=345SXB36YNGFF&sprefix=coddling+of+America%2Caps%2C226&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_19

...

Paul, dig a little deeper. Contribute.

Think Professors Are Liberal? Try School Administrators

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/opinion/liberal-college-administrators.html
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 13, 2019 - 12:29pm PT
Why does the Dalai Lama wear glasses? Myopia is a medical condition.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 13, 2019 - 07:35pm PT
HFCS: Caring people who actually pay attention to these things, who follow this stuff, and are genuinely concerned about these various subjects care enough - they care enough - to critique them where they are falling short as means to trying to help bring some quality control to them where needed and raise performance.


"Quality control?" I get what you're going for, but your choice of terms might be regretable. We are products? Machines? Outputs? In need of "checkers" who will send folks back for re-engineering or re-programming?

One could look at the notion of "care." Care can show up in many different forms. You can be a teacher, a mentor, a coach, a parent, a counselor, a facilitator, a colleague, a manager, and yes . . . a philosopher--all in the service of others and "quality control" (ugh).

"Performance" as a concept applied to human beings, is a topic worth exploration at another time.

Be well.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 14, 2019 - 10:00am PT
"Hard work dissipates ignorance."




https://youtu.be/bd993w3syBM
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 14, 2019 - 11:40am PT
Sarah Lawrence is a fine school that has been the base of a number of remarkable mentors including J. Campbell.

SL has descended into the same abyss of nascent totalitarianism and undisguised intolerance that most of these elite schools have in recent decades. Many of the parents have bribed their little packages of joy into these institutions of fineness and they are run consequently as finishing schools for the political and business upper crusts. Many of such "students" are shoehorned through the ivyed halls on the wings of the aforementioned bribes and family connections to receive a "degree" which operates as a status symbol only; as entry tickets to inclusion in the hallowed ranks of the ruling class.

My heart goes out to those students who have managed, against all odds. to have reached such exclusive places due to their hard work and character-- only to be forced into enduring the legion of spoiled brats and corrupt overseers.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/sarah-lawrence-college-students-protest-politics-professor-over-conservative-op-ed

Oh yeah, and fabric softenerism , lest we forget.

jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 14, 2019 - 05:15pm PT
Unfortunately, his op ed piece is behind a paywall at the NYT.



4Arctan(1) Day!
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Mar 14, 2019 - 05:53pm PT
How science works
https://youtu.be/bd993w3syBM?t=365


thanks HFCS
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Mar 14, 2019 - 07:07pm PT
Comparisons are odious, said someone:

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