The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 11901 - 11920 of total 12032 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 11, 2019 - 10:50am PT

The earliest known life-forms on Earth are putative fossilized microorganisms, found in hydrothermal vent precipitates, that may have lived as early as 4.28 billion years ago, relatively soon after the oceans formed 4.41 billion years ago, and not long after the formation of the Earth 4.54 billion years ago.[1][2]

*Abiogenesis, or informally the origin of life,[3][4][5][note 1] is the natural process by which life has arisen from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds.[6][4][7][8] While the details of this process are still unknown, the prevailing scientific hypothesis is that the transition from non-living to living entities was not a single event, but a gradual process of increasing complexity that involved molecular self-replication, self-assembly, autocatalysis, and the emergence of cell membranes.[9][10][11] Although the occurrence of abiogenesis is uncontroversial among scientists, there is no single, generally accepted model for the origin of life, and this article presents several principles and hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have occurred.
wiki
WBraun

climber
Feb 11, 2019 - 10:51am PT
Humans can't create God ever.

Yet humanity has the limited ability to create by manipulating only the inferior material energies of God.

The gross materialists are only mental speculators who are always in poor fund of knowledge.

Life always comes from life.

Abiogenesis is just another wild st00pid guess from mental speculators that live in a well that never have seen the ocean and lick the outside of the jar guessing what's inside .....
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:04am PT
Thanks for the reply. Do you ever also consider the plausibility of your own views on the subject? Serious question. Or does your fascination end with the implausibility of the views of which you don't agree?

Rephrased - do you question all views?
I'd like to think that I question all of my beliefs equally, but I'm sure there is some subconscious bias between things I hope are true and things I hope are not true. Either way, in my opinion (that I try to form based on evidence) abiogenesis seems much less plausible than the historical accounts of the Bible. Maybe I just like that one of the options has a mechanism. Maybe it's also influenced by the fact that one of them also has a purpose, but I try to be objective.

Although the occurrence of abiogenesis is uncontroversial among scientists, there is no single, generally accepted model for the origin of life, and this article presents several principles and hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have occurred.

Right?
This is the weird part.
Isn't assuming something happened, and then trying to figure out how, an odd way to approach science? Shouldn't the first step be trying to figure out if something can happen without assuming it can?

Life always comes from life.
Funny that that's one of the main tenants of the widely accepted cell theory, yet it directly contradicts abiogenesis.

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Feb 11, 2019 - 11:06am PT
cheers limping crab.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 11, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
Maybe I just like that one of the options has a mechanism.


Interesting to consider what we might like or dislike per stuff like fundamental forces, which don't arise by way of more basic mechanisms that "cause" them.

I remember when I first delved into objectless meditation how my mind kept scratching around trying to frame, label, get a rope around, and generally "know" (objectify) what the hell was going on, impossible as it was to think in terms of anything but linear time, causes and things.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Feb 11, 2019 - 03:39pm PT
https://www.foxnews.com/us/hundreds-of-southern-baptist-church-leaders-volunteers-accused-sexual-misconduct.amp

"Hundreds of leaders and volunteers within Southern Baptist churches across the nation have been accused of sexual misconduct against young churchgoers for decades - many of them quietly returning to church roles even after being convicted for sex crimes.

A bombshell investigation by the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News found that over the last 20 years, about 380 Southern Baptist church leaders and volunteers have faced credible accusations of sexual misconduct. Of those, roughly 220 were convicted of sex crimes or received plea deals, in cases involving more than 700 victims in all, the report found. Many accusers were young men and women, who allegedly experienced everything from exposure to pornography to rape and impregnation at the hands of church members.

The newspapers reported that the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) largely treated the accusations as isolated issues, and took on an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality, even amid growing pressures to create a registry so the accusations wouldn't disappear as alleged perpetrators moved from city to city. The Chronicle and Express-News created a database of convicted sexual abusers with documented connections to the SBC.

The investigation took over six months and involved the cross-examination of hundreds of allegations corroborated by court documents and prison records. The results were startling and reiterated how allegations of sexual misconduct aren't limited to just the Catholic church."

No comment.

Moose
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 11, 2019 - 03:55pm PT
Nor is sexual misconduct limited to churches. Wherever there are humans, untoward stuff is going to happen. No exceptions.

Honesty, awareness and transparency remain the bedrock for any spiritual adventure. Without those, there is no foundation.
Hardly Visible

Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
Feb 11, 2019 - 04:54pm PT
Limpingcrab,

I don't mean to be a dick here, and I usually stay away from posting in this "heavy" discussion, but it's snowing and I'm cozy by the fire with time to ponder. I do have many questions about the historical accounts of the Bible which you seem to find so plausible, would you mind clearing some of these up for me?
For instance...
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24.
The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9.
The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.
Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 11, 2019 - 05:05pm PT
Either way, in my opinion (that I try to form based on evidence) abiogenesis seems much less plausible than the historical accounts of the Bible.

yes, I could not agree more, especially using the bible as evidence
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 11, 2019 - 05:24pm PT
The challenge with abiogenesis is the probability of it happening. Not to say it didn't, but rather the odds are formidable. A few quotes to give some idea.


Clearly to get from the Miller-Urey experiment to a living cell by unguided materialistic processes requires that improbabilities be stacked upon improbabilities. For this reason, Dean Kenyon rightly concludes: “It (abiogenesis) is an enormous problem, how you could get together in one tiny, sub-microscopic volume of the primitive ocean all of the hundreds of different molecular components you would need in order for a self-replicating cycle to be established.”

Biologists currently estimate that the smallest life form as we know it would have needed about 256 genes. (See Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Volume 93, Number 19, pp. 10268-
10273 at http://journals.at-home.com/get_doc/1854083/8551);.

A gene is typically 1000 or more base pairs long, and there is some space in between, so 256 genes would amount to about 300,000 bases of DNA. The deoxyribose in the DNA ``backbone'' determines the direction in which it will spiral. Since organic molecules can be generated in both forms, the chance of obtaining all one form or another in 300,000 bases is one in two to the 300,000 power. This is about one in 10 to the 90,000 power. It seems to be necessary for life that all of these bases spiral in the same direction. Now, if we imagine many, many DNA molecules being formed in the early history of the earth, we might have say 10 100 molecules altogether (which is really much too high). But even this would make the probability of getting one DNA molecule right about one in 10 to the 89,900 power, still essentially zero. And we are not even considering what proteins the DNA generates, or how the rest of the cell structure would get put together! So the real probability would be fantastically small.

Biologists are hypothesizing some RNA-based life form that might have had a smaller genome and might have given rise to a cell with about 256 genes. Until this is demonstrated, one would have to say that the problem of abiogenesis is very severe indeed for us in the field of evolution.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Feb 11, 2019 - 05:37pm PT
Oh no, not the Baptists. There go all the theories about the quirks of the Catholic Church, particularly the idea that celibacy turns good men into pervs. Another idea might be that there is a secret chomo subculture that has developed, a vast conspiracy like something out of the Da Vinci Code. But now we have the Baptists to deal with.

If the phenomenon can be observed in protestant religions as well, then it may be like when people working in day care get caught doing it. Or the brain dead lady in the nursing home who somehow got pregnant. Maybe its just that there are lots of adults who can't be trusted taking care of children.

My theory at this point is that human nature isn't that bad, but anyone who claims to be an expert on God or the Bible is delusional, and arrogant to think they can preach to others. Televangelists are the worst-looking examples, but they're basically all scammers and con men. Why would any parent trust their children with them?
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Feb 11, 2019 - 05:58pm PT
Germs are not a real thing': Fox News host says he hasn't washed hands in 10 years

Pete Hegseth denies existence of germs, saying: ‘I can’t see them, therefore they’re not real’

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/feb/11/germs-are-not-real-fox-news-host-pete-hegseth

...

It's even worse than I thought.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Feb 11, 2019 - 05:59pm PT
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

How many religious individuals take these passages from the old testament as literal? Science is credited repeatedly here as the discipline that thrives on correcting its mistakes. Why can't you give religion credit for that as well? Nobody in their right mind sells their children into slavery based on passages from the old testament. And if they do they are the exception that proves the rule. Bringing up the horrors of the old testament is a tired and worthless argument.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 11, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
The challenge with abiogenesis is the probability of it happening. Not to say it didn't, but rather the odds are formidable.

it depends on how you define life, of course...

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 11, 2019 - 06:58pm PT
Bashing religious text because Jesus didn't actually walk on water is like trying to reduce consciousness to data. If that's the only way you know to view your own life, that's what you're left to do. One could read the bible like a historical text and go away laughing. Try the Song of Songs on for size and give us a take on that. Or the Beatitudes. That's where the money is, not ancient Hebrew law.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 11, 2019 - 07:47pm PT
to theists abiogenesis is not a problem, the spirit in the sky created life from nothing

some of those who pursue a more detailed explanation can come up with a couple of
other premises, one being that life from nothing faces seemingly impossible odds requiring not only a planet like ours just happening to orbit a star the perfect distance from its sun along with a moon of size to keep its orbit stable

another group contends that life from nothing may be quite common in the universe
they would say that just in the observable universe there are hundreds of billions of galaxies, those galaxies contain hundreds of billions of stars and planets, just the overwhelming number of planets perhaps trillions virtually insures life starting from nothing just as it did here on earth

the Fermi Paradox, the Drake Equation make for interesting speculation
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Feb 11, 2019 - 07:50pm PT
I don't mean to be a dick here, and I usually stay away from posting in this "heavy" discussion, but it's snowing and I'm cozy by the fire with time to ponder. I do have many questions about the historical accounts of the Bible which you seem to find so plausible, would you mind clearing some of these up for me?
For instance...
No worries Hardly Visible, asking questions isn't dickish. Without going way off down the rabbit hole, there's a big difference between the Old Testament when people had to make sacrifices to make up for our sinful nature and follow rules to stand out as a chosen people, and the New Testament where that sacrifice has been made for us and all we have to do is accept the gift.

That's a simplistic answer to keep the thread more on topic, but if you'd like to have more of a discussion I tried to answer many similar questions here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2788568/Ask-a-Christian-way-OT

———-
Good examples of the magnitude of the question, Largo. Those numbers are also assuming all of the ingredients are hanging out together in a relatively protected space.

When people use the Miller-Urey experiment as evidence that the question is close to being answered, it's sort of like saying someone knows how the City of New York was constructed and how it functions because they were able to make a brick.

There's a reason more and more respected scientists are ascribing to the theory of panspermia. It's all but proven impossible for the building blocks of early life to have formed here.

———-
Edit: Ed, gonna check that video out after the kids go to bed, I'm interested in your take on people's passive acceptance of abiogenesis.

Edit #2
another group contends that life from nothing may be quite common in the universe
These people are more philosophers than anything else. This is the passive acceptance without evidence that I am curious about.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Feb 11, 2019 - 07:55pm PT
another group contends that life from nothing may be quite common in the universe
they would say that just in the observable universe there are hundreds of billions of galaxies, those galaxies contain hundreds of billions of stars and planets, just the overwhelming number of planets perhaps trillions virtually insures life starting from nothing just as it did here on earth

What if anything does it say about the universe if life and therefore consciousness is/are inevitable?
WBraun

climber
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:05pm PT
another group contends that life from nothing may be quite common in the universe

Never happened ever.

Life always comes from life ......
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 11, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
What if anything does it say about the universe if life and therefore consciousness is/are inevitable?

Why don't you take a shot at answering your own question, Paul?
Messages 11901 - 11920 of total 12032 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta