The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 10, 2019 - 08:32pm PT
Honest question.


Now that's damn funny. You might want to look those words up especially "honest."
The most important thing in trolling is honesty. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 10, 2019 - 09:43pm PT
That entanglement has been validated by measurement doesn't address what it is, only that it is. In what sense does the collapse of time/space differ from what is colloquially described as a miracle?

you seem to not have followed any previous discussions on threads you post to. Einstein's critique was that the thought experiment proposed in the EPR paper violated "local realism." I think that your reference to "the collapse of time/space" is the comment that two distant photons somehow communicate to each other once one is measured, "spooky action at a distance," this communication would have to be faster than light.

The usual quantum mechanical explanation is that while we think about the two photons as being individual objects, they are a part of a quantum mechanical state, and they are entangled with respect to some measurable quantity, say the state is represented by the pair of numbers (+1,-1) or (-1,+1) which are set once the photons are created. What we are measuring is not the single photon, but the state made up by the pair of photons. Quantum mechanics says that these two states are equally probable, so we don't know which one we are looking at until we measure, then we know, say we measure +1 for the one photon, the other one is -1, because that is the state they're in.

This wave function of two photons can span a large physical space, and that is an odd thing indeed, but not magic. If nothing interacts with either photon then that state can grow in size and we'll still get the same result.

The size of stars is measured using this sort of "interference" of photons emitted from the distant limbs of the star, and interact in this quantum mechanical way to give an interference pattern, this was developed by Hanburry-Brown & Twiss who made radioastronomy observations of the star sizes.



The more sophisticated understanding of Einstein's criticism has developed since Einstein (the paper was published in 1935) and the concept of "local realism" has been greatly expanded on as it was developed. You can read more '...classical physics must give up its claim to one of three assumptions: locality (no "spooky action at a distance"), counterfactual definiteness (or "non-contextuality"), and no conspiracy (called also "asymmetry of time").[4][5]'

But mostly this demonstrates that science invites the sort of questioning about really fundamental issues, and resolves them through careful experimental and theoretical activity. Which one of the three things classical physics has to give up is not resolved, and the implications of giving one up is not entirely known, but we don't consider that magic, just more work to do.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 10, 2019 - 10:27pm PT
you seem to not have followed any previous discussions on threads you post to. Einstein's critique was that the thought experiment proposed in the EPR paper violated "local realism." I think that your reference to "the collapse of time/space" is the comment that two distant photons somehow communicate to each other once one is measured, "spooky action at a distance," this communication would have to be faster than light.

This is a surprising sort of analysis. I've followed both of these threads with some interest. I understand the EPR paper but what remains is exactly that "spooky action." It remains a mystery that in spite of distance entanglement remains. If I told you that God exists and the proof of that is nestled in the realization that space and time are simply illusions and that space does not exist and the center of the universe is simply conscious mind you'd call that "magic" of magical thinking and rightfully so. On the face of it entanglement falls into a similar category. You may not want to call it magic but it has that taint.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 10, 2019 - 10:32pm PT
I don't agree with you, but obviously I'm not convincing. All I can say is that you have the ability to learn about it yourself, without taking my word for it. Science does not have priests leading their flocks, it is an open book for all to learn and understand.

If you don't want to, that's your choice. But certainly without that knowledge your sense of "taint" doesn't really have much behind it, except it what you're feelings are.

AntiChrist

Gym climber
Urth
Jan 11, 2019 - 05:26am PT
The approach of science:

But mostly this demonstrates that science invites the sort of questioning about really fundamental issues, and resolves them through careful experimental and theoretical activity.

The approach of religion:

5000 year old "sacred" texts contain deep wisdom about human existence that can be interpreted in 1000's of different ways depending on the subjective experience of each person, each validated by virtue of the source.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jan 11, 2019 - 09:08am PT
HFCS: rest assured there is a kind of freedom that comes from ignorance also

+1

Paul: there is a distinct and observable tendency to exaggerate the plague of identity politics that has currently found favor in some quarters of the academic world. 

+1


Gentle Readers,

I think the word or term of “magic” used here is a cartoonish characterization, much like the one that sees God is as an old guy with a beard and flowing robes.

In studies of ritual and religion, “magic” presents a black-box transformation that appears to change situations in the real world. “Magic” is not religion according to those academics. Here’s one simple example: ancient hunters would make models / tokens and manipulate them in dramas to influence what would happen when they went out to hunt dangerous animals. If the hunt went well, then they performed the magic properly. If it didn’t go well, then they missed something in the ritual.

So, can you think of any physical or material explanations for how that magic might have “worked?” (You know, Skinner described the mind’s operations as a black box.)

I suppose Ed could say that might be fine and dandy for personal or social behaviors and outcomes, but he might admonish us for applying that kind of understanding to events that are disconnected to any human participation. But it is exactly there that a conundrum arises: What could be said to occur, and shown, without observation? Furthermore, some physicists have told us that observation changes observations.

Things might be a little more complicated than cartoonish / simplistic characterizations might suggest about anything—religion, science, humanities notwithstanding.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 09:37am PT
+1
lol

Per usual, you're all over the place, MikeL. Here...



https://youtu.be/xWhuQOVTFGw

Specifically, it is AS IF at 18:16, Helen Pluckrose for a couple of sentences is speaking DIRECTLY to you...

"If there was a word for the extremes of marxism, it's totalitarianism; if there is a word for the extremes of postmodernism, it's disintegration, it's fragmentation. So we're looking now at something very different, something very intangible that is coming in and saying we cannot access an objective truth." -Pluckrose

Disintegration. Fragmentation. (Hm, sounds familiar. Who here most reflects this? I think we know.)

Who thinks if science and engineering and business and industry operated off of postmodernism or today's far left academic ideologies anything would get done?

...


Paul, just as this new-age academic crap (e.g., feminist glaciology) is tainting the humanities, it's also tainting science and the science community. Just look over the commentaries. ("F*#k the science community", etc.) Coming from fans of Jordan Peterson, scientist, no less. How naive, mixed up and ironic is that?

Lay people, naive people, otherwise the public... conflating extremes and agendas in the social sciences, political science - and largely from far left liberal arts schools - with "science" and the "science community" in general. What a mess.

Folks who care about academia, the humanities and science need to pay attention to these latest new-age generational developments.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 11, 2019 - 09:44am PT
I suppose Ed could say that might be fine and dandy for personal or social behaviors and outcomes, but he might admonish us for applying that kind of understanding to events that are disconnected to any human participation.

I think you know that I wouldn't say that, fully acknowledging the role human perception has in our understanding. I have stated many times that I think that "science works in spite of humans" as a comment on how individual and societal bias can be so strong and persistent.

Another point that I have made is that we should abandon talk about "truth" in science when what we mean is "understanding" and explicitly acknowledge the provisional nature of that understanding.

While these sentiments are used by science protagonists to excoriate me, they are used by science antagonists to demonstrate that science is just like any other human belief system. I do not think that it is like any other belief system, especially since one of its primary creeds is to rid science practice of "beliefs" of any kind, a miracle does not appear.

Interestingly, the existence of the AlphaZero code introduces the idea that this intelligence can understand a "simple" game like chess at a level that cannot be comprehended by humans. Many in the chess community look forward to the time when such machines are available to coach human players in the game. Many critics seek to diminish the skill of AlphaZero by saying it plays surprising chess because its learning was free from human bias. But the point for the future is that we may build a generation of such machines capable of understanding very complex problems, and finding solutions, that humans may not be able to comprehend, solutions free from human bias.

How interesting that these sorts of ideas emerge from science.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 10:16am PT
I am very thankful...

that I am grounded in the evidence-based hard sciences.

They are my rock.


In these crazy, topsy-turvy, confused times...

they are my rock.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Jan 11, 2019 - 11:22am PT
Most people have not had the extreme experiences with religion that its critics here seem to have had and thus not the extreme reaction. If science stands for calm reason and objectivity then the highly emotional response of some here against all religion is the furthest thing from a scientific world view.

Has it ever occurred to some of you that family members of those bombed in Dresden or Hiroshima, or the loved ones of people tortured to death in eugenics experiments, or those burned by napalm or delivered of mutated children after being sprayed with Agent Orange might have an equally strong reaction against science?

It is my observation that those injured by science have the wisdom to not blame all of science for their suffering but rather misguided humans misusing science for their own purposes. Would it not be logical to do the same for people suffering the ill effects of religion?



paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 11, 2019 - 11:38am PT
I think I've said this before but it bears repeating here: Science and the scientific method is one of the great achievements of the human mind. Science has done much to improve the lot of humanity and it continues to amaze us and do good. Of course science can serve any master and since those masters are human with all the foibles of humanity, science can be used, and has been used for, very bad things. But the great gift of the scientific method properly, is its perfect neutrality.

Unfortunately how and for what that method is employed is not a function of perfect neutrality but one of our own very human, very tendentious nature. And what is the ameliorating, mediating antidote to that nature but the humanities. And by humanities I'm referring to the wisdom literature of the world from the Bible to Ovid to the Bhagavad Gita, to Shakespeare, to Kant, to Schopenhauer, to Joyce, and everything in between. Dismissing that literature, dismissing theology, religion and even faith does not benefit science or scientific progress. Faith must submit to the nature knowledge of any given society nor should it be be a roadblock to that knowledge, nevertheless, faith remains both a comfort and a discipline for billions of human beings and that by and large is more of a benefit than otherwise. But the parochial view of faith as simply a product of irrelevant fairy tales that should be squashed for the benefit of modernist progress is a scientism, a belief system that ignores the humanity within us all.

With regard to the terms "magic" and "entanglement," I used those terms only in my "brief history of science." up thread. A "joke" played against the "brief history of religion" previous to it. Didn't mean to bring that subject up again but for so much reaction.
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 12:40pm PT
There is no possibility for life nor for science to ever exist without God period for everything is part parcel of him.

The gross materialists are always ultimately in very poor fund of knowledge ...
AntiChrist

Gym climber
Urth
Jan 11, 2019 - 01:33pm PT
But the parochial view of faith as simply a product of irrelevant fairy tales that should be squashed for the benefit of modernist progress is a scientism, a belief system that ignores the humanity within us all.

Who said it should be squashed?

Should fairytales from a particular tribe be given special treatment in public schools (seminary)?

Should federal politicians be expected to have faith in the same fairytales?

Should there even be a discussion about prayer (always judeo-christian) without equal consideration of Native American song, Tai Chi, Buddhist meditation, or Lipan Conjuring?

There is a huge difference between squashing humanities and putting one set of tribal fairytales in their place. I'm fine with equating the bible to the works of Shakespeare or any of the others you mentioned... teach classes on it, have annual festivals, whatever. Just don't elevate it to the level where laws are based on it or some bullshit moral authority is ascribed to it and/or its followers. And certainly don't exhault it as "the Truth."
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 01:42pm PT
You are a clueless brainwashed nutcase with no clue to prayer itself.

Meditation in its various forms is prayer.

You should stop running your st00pid mouth and actually get a life which you don't have and stop your clueless brainwashed interpretations ....

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 02:10pm PT
AntiChrist, it seems some here, like Paul and Jan, don't really get what we're saying - that times are changing, that some of us are not supernaturalists and therefore (a) religion doesn't work for us, it's a problem and (b) that we're moving on.

I remain confident: As soon as a new and better description comes along (in language, in our case, in English) to express our holdings (incl beliefs) people of all stripes will understand, they will get it.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 11, 2019 - 02:15pm PT
Imo I think the friction arises when one succumbs to the urge to tell others it ls not working for them, either. But I know you get that. I’ve seen your approach and tone change over time and totally appreciate and respect that in you. However some other persistant critics of religion are not so respectful of others.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 02:21pm PT
Hi Dingus, I've missed you. :)

I would say the way forward through this impass in life management, in belief, in understanding, in philos, way of life, however you prefer to say it... as I've expressed here before numerous times and I know you know it it too.. will require a number of strategies - and not a small number - run by a number of different player types, not just one player type and deployed over time (generational time). Not unlike in any number of games and sports we both are familiar with.

Think "good cop bad cop" as a metaphor. Or quarterback, tight-end, runningback... Or leader and second.

But I'm confident: Progress, even much progress, lies (lay?) ahead. Providing society holds itself together long enough of course to see it through.

P.S. Don't get me wrong: the life management system I speak of (for lack of a better word, currently) won't be for supernaturalists or blind faith devotees - who already have their religion and theology and theism to guide and comfort them. Instead it will be for naturalists and science types like myself for same. So we too will have something instead of nothing. In hard times. In community. I believe this development is already underway. It's just that "Rome wasn't built in a day" and, what's more, I'm actually happy with the current 2018 rate of change, believe it or not. It's been "tremendous!" (channeling Trump) lol

...

Here, this packs a lot of goodness and hints to my love of science, math and engineering that started in youth...



https://youtu.be/ds0cmAV-Yek

I had never heard of him before. Now I'm a fan.

Internet what it is, I got there from here...



Who knows what this is called?

Note completely mechanistic, completely ruleset-based. Note the appearance of both elements of chaos and elements of order in the system.
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 02:30pm PT
some of us are not supernaturalists

Then you would instantly be dead.

Proves you really are a spiritual living entity and not material .....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 11, 2019 - 03:22pm PT

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2019 - 03:48pm PT
Ding, ding!



https://youtu.be/RU0wScIj36o
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