The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 8, 2018 - 10:16am PT
I love the original Time Machine. Especially the opening. How about that guy drinking all that wine. And the maid? And the host busting in all torn and battered after his adventure in the future? And the romantisized life of the squire, in his hand-tooled abode full of books and tradition.

jogill

climber
Colorado
Jul 8, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
I enjoyed the two Time Machine movies, the first more than the second. The tv series Timeless was entertaining as well. Too bad it was axed.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 10, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
Why do we do it? Why do we persist?

In part, in memory and honor of this guy...


Can't recall? Check out Cosmos 2.

Funny thing, I enjoyed more the second round.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jul 10, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
I like the part where the moon breaks apart. But Largo would tell us that could not happen if we were not looking at it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 10, 2018 - 08:58pm PT
"In the absence of a conscious entity, the moon remains a radically ambiguous and ceaselessly flowing quantum soup." -Chopra

Imagine that Thai cave now. Dark. Empty. (I mean, except for all that urine and CO2 buildup, lol.) Forsaken. No more conscious entities contained within.

"In the absence of a conscious entity, the Thai Cave returns to a radically ambiguous and ceaselessly flowing quantum soup."

Well, maybe. :)

...

Could anyone say it better...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dasQ7HnDoI

PS

lol, carbonic acid in the lab, on the table!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2018 - 05:45am PT

When I was a teacher with Boston University’s Core Curriculum, I heard Elie Wiesel lecture on the Binding of Isaac. The lesson I gathered from Wiesel was that the near-sacrifice of Isaac involved Abraham testing God as much as God testing Abraham: Is this a god that would demand such a thing? Is this then the God that deserves my worship? And in the end this God does not require that Abraham go through with the sacrifice. Wiesel argued that the most important thing about this story is the imperative to question, to be alive to the justice of God as a problem, not a command to be obeyed unthinkingly. Abraham’s God wants us to question, to test Him. That leaves room for philosophy in this transient world: While we live, we must always begin our wanderings rooted somewhere, with the seeming givens of the context we inhabit, but to capitulate to these givens is to abandon the human calling to transcend the given while still preserving and reconstituting it, for we have no other dwelling between earth and sky, between the Here of a beloved contingency and the There of a transcendent judgment. We are given over to the paradox of a situated transcendence, and this paradox is how we can mediate between Being as the eternal and Being as the time-bound specificity of our historical, emplaced belonging. Only by learning to live by negotiating this paradox ever anew may we face down the pathologies of fascism emerging in our time.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 12, 2018 - 07:56am PT
Niel deGrasse Tyson presents a romantic, moralistic, optimistic story. It’s endearing.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 12, 2018 - 09:05am PT
Backhanded compliment, MikeL?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Jul 12, 2018 - 09:16am PT
"In the absence of a conscious entity, the moon remains a radically ambiguous and ceaselessly flowing quantum soup." -Chopra

pure woo
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 12, 2018 - 10:20am PT
Dig this Sapiens (Harari) fans...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bookmark/ridley-scott-asif-kapadia-adapt-fiction-bestseller-sapiens-1126224

No less than Ridley Scott!

"The adaptation will explore how man became the planet's dominant species."

But hold some of your horses... Scott only to produce.

...

Wow, something's going on with Robert Wright...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=157&v=5QWUqtoaqpc
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 12, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
HFCS: Backhanded compliment, MikeL?

If I look at the video as a production, as a text, as rhetoric, then I’d say it plays a vision where everything good is possible, and where all understanding will be found. Literarily, that would make it a romance. It also seems to suggest the idea that science is a moral good. That would make it a persuasion.

I can’t say what’s in your mind, but since you posted the video, how would you describe it in review? (Imagine yourself a media critic.)

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jul 13, 2018 - 07:40am PT
HFCS and MikeL, interesting dialogue here about the Spacetime Odyssey video segment.

It prompted me to watch it, Hey Mikey!

:)

When it comes to painting the big picture of the cosmos in words, distilled from billions of tiny data points and organized by theories tested by local experiment, it necessarily relies upon narrative and story telling.

When it comes to scientists getting it wrong, it's in these sweeping, big-picture stories it is mostly likely to make grand, sweeping mistakes; to have it all wrong in this or that aspect.

There is no doubt that the rhetoric deGrasse Tyson uses in that segment is romantic. Clearly he borrows from age old human story telling and myth making to pluck emotional chords in the human psyche. It is no accident imo, that one could easily replace his scientists and cosmos, with prophets and god, and tell the same uplifting story with virtually the same uplifting words.

I am not ascribing deceit on deGrasse's part. I am not making equivalence between religious and scientific myth making. I am saying, this is how we humans tell stories and get others to listen.

In that sense, deGrasse is a preacher, getting the message out.

So I have to tip the hat to MikeL for his comments. The piece struck me exactly the same way. I say, no fault, no foul. But I would also add, it is important to recognize that common note between the music of religion and the music of science.

When there is criticism that science ends up being 'just another religion' to some people? It's that theme, I would submit, that stirs those thoughts.

Again, I say there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I see no harm in recognizing it. My response is that it should not be taken as a backhanded compliment.

It is not a backhanded compliment like this one, for example:

"You're really quite emotional, aren't you?"


Cheers
DMT
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jul 13, 2018 - 07:52am PT
Very well put, DMT.

Thanks for chiming in.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
“So I have to tip the hat to MikeL for his comments.” -Dingus

“Very well put, DMT… Thanks for chiming in.” -MikeL

lol

...


Well, what’s clear after a gazillion posts is that MikeL and I do not always share the same common language. Likely due somewhat to our differing personalities and dispositions in regards to these subject matters. So the ambiguity (per usual?) of MikeL’s post left me wondering about its meaning. I grew up – and I aged (lol) – in an arts and sciences-respecting, Enlightenment ideals-respecting culture and my vocabulary and vernacular reflect this... acculturation.

So in lieu of MikeL’s phrasing...
“Niel deGrasse Tyson presents a romantic, moralistic, optimistic story. It’s endearing.”


...mine would’ve/could've been along the lines of...

"Neil deGrasse Tyson presents in this short piece an inspiring, science and history-minded, didactically-minded, didactically-motivated, didactically-effective recapitulation – yes, somewhat in story form, which is great - of a number of thinking tools (four or five) that together serve wonderfully not only as a tool but as stoke for scienteers (those impassioned by science). Effective and endearing."

For scienteers at least - if not others.

I could go on but I left it short to parallel MikeL’s response. Also let’s remember - as it's pertinent - that this was a just a clip of an ending (hardly comprehensive) that recapitulated both the episode and the entire 13 episode series.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:13pm PT
continued...

I suppose another way to respond to Neil’s piece - along the lines of a critique - would be to give it a grade, an OVERALL grade (mindful in the background of a report card’s component grades too). In this case, personally, I’d have no problem giving Neil’s piece an OVERALL A grade. So what OVERALL grade would MikeL give it? (A rhetorical question? that’s fine.)

Dingus writes,
“I am saying, this is how we humans tell stories and get others to listen… In that sense, deGrasse is a preacher, getting the message out.”

Fair enough. But all teachers, all educators, then – not just Tyson (either here in this piece or elsewhere) - are “preachers” "in that sense" “getting the message out.”

Most everyone’s aware: “Preacher” is first and foremost part of a religious/theistic “way of talking.” Some folks nowadays (instructors, teachers, educators among them; parents too) - who are bent toward the modern scientific and would identify as nonreligious if not irreligious - are simply not interested in this identifier as part of there own modern (idiosyncratic) “way of talking.”

If I were an educator/teacher, and that's what Neil Tyson is, I would likely not appreciate being called a "preacher" in many settings esp if the caller were a known detractor/disparager of some stripe.

Hence the pushback here.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
I can’t say what’s in your mind, but since you posted the video, how would you describe it in review? (Imagine yourself a media critic.)

Four stars.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
If I were an educator/teacher, and that's what Neil Tyson is, I would likely not appreciate being called a "preacher" in many settings esp if the caller were a known detractor/disparager of some stripe.

Well he can ignore the feedback from down here in the congregation, as he chooses. If he gets upset about being called a preacher, well, them's the breaks.

DMT

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
MikeL and I do not always share the same common language. Likely due somewhat to our differing personalities and dispositions in regards to these subject matters.

"Willful," is how I'd characterize. You mis-regard each other's words as you choose.

..mine would’ve/could've been along the lines of...

"Neil deGrasse Tyson presents in this short piece an inspiring, science and history-minded, didactically-minded, didactically-motivated, didactically-effective recapitulation

Seriously? Well, ahem, don't quit your day job, Brother.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
"Willful," is how I'd characterize. You mis-regard each other's words as you choose.

So Darwin to Dawkins, Sagan to Tyson are part of my panoply of influencers. Happy to acknowledge this here. So too, the Enlightenment ideals Pinker's recently articulated in his latest book, motivate me as well. Wouldn't want it any other way. Them's the facts, too.

...

Seriously? Well, ahem, don't quit your day job, Brother.

Your last bit I don't get.

If you're referring to Tyson, he's currently (2018) probably the country's - if not the world's - most celebrated science communicator.

Edit: He's nothing if not EXTREMELY didactically effective. With millions of people.

Research it.



All this shows just how hard communications can be.

For the record, the video under review...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dasQ7HnDoI

The next couple of minutes in the episode were great as well, too bad they weren't included here.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jul 13, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
Cheers to you, and them too!

:)

Have a great weekend too.

DMT
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