The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 10161 - 10180 of total 10269 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:01am PT
re: evidence-based belief
re: belief in human rights, belief in the rights of the individual


What's the difference, really, between (a) believing in human rights (e.g., the rights of the individual) and (b) believing in God? since the former is just as made up and fictitious as the latter. (See Harari, for eg)

Believing in the rights of the individual (or believing in human rights) is, at bottom, an idea; it's entirely made up; it's no more evidence-based than believing in God.

- Asked by a questioner in response to a speaker encouraging evidence-based belief.

"it's no more evidence-based..."
But is this true?


(My consideration of the day.)

...

Merry Perihelion!
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:11am PT
Credit: sycorax






Lady Macbeth with the Bard seated above her.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:11am PT
Obligatory post to own post.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:12am PT
...narrative...
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:14am PT
Credit: sycorax







Prince Hamlet with skull of Yorick.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:15am PT
Credit: sycorax









Prince Hal.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:18am PT
Credit: sycorax




Shakespeare's Fool.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:20am PT
Credit: sycorax







Falstaff, Prince Hal's foil.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:25am PT
Credit: sycorax

Scottish coffee shop where J.K. Rowling began Harry Potter on napkins, unable to afford paper.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 09:31am PT
Credit: sycorax

Encumbered by publishing industry sexism, Rowling opts for male-sounding pen name as did the Brontes and George Eliot ( Marianne Evans) over a century before.
sempervirens

climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 10:56am PT
What's the difference, really, between (a) believing in human rights (e.g., the rights of the individual) and (b) believing in God? since the former is just as made up and fictitious as the latter. (See Harari, for eg)

Well, since you asked, the difference is that the first is a belief in a concept, i.e. that humans have certain rights. One who holds that belief may or may not believe that those rights are granted and respected. Like an opinion, it is neither fictitious nor true. The second is the belief in the actual existence of God as an entity.

I agree that these are both constructions of the human mind.
Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Jan 3, 2018 - 10:58am PT
trump is god
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 11:38am PT
Encumbered by publishing industry sexism, Rowling opts for male-sounding pen name as did the Brontes and George Eliot ( Marianne Evans) over a century before.

This is simply not true. In Rowling's own words:

"...to publish without hype or expectation and pure pleasure to get feedback from publishers and readers"

Furthermore:

"Robert fully intends to keep writing the series"

As regards the atmosphere of recent posts, there is perhaps nothing more vacuous,
unproductive, and unnecessarily incendiary than the retroactive superimposition of relatively contemporary ideologies upon the distant past-- in this case baby boomer feminism upon the 18th and 19th centuries. But such absurd historical methodologies will doubtless continue as long as people feel unrestrained in their pseudo-moral posturings; or to live exclusively within the cultural bubble boundaries of their own times.
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Jan 3, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
Shakespeare is God.














Credit: sycorax
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
Shakespeare is God.

Agreed!

Although my own sense of the Bard was he was much thinner, somewhat frailer appearing than this tourist-inspired depiction.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
sempervirens,
I agree that these are both constructions of the human mind...

That is right. They are constructions. In other words, fictions, or made up constructions. (Original definition of fiction.)

In Harari's work (Sapiens, Homo Deus), he uses the word "fiction" rather loosely as synonymous with a made up construction or made-up convention.


It seems to me, belief in human rights, or belief in the rights of the individual (vis a vis the state), though invented (a made-up construction; a made-up fiction), is in a sense "evidence-based" because ad hoc (after the trial) the belief's been tried and tested and shown to be productive/beneficial to society.


Then again, I suppose a few (like Paul here) could say the very same about belief in God as well, that the belief has been shown to benefit society, and thus it too, in a way, is evidence-based.

Hmm.

Still, one could make the case that belief in God is other-worldly while belief in the rights of Man (e.g., individual vs state) are secular and this-worldly. So when it comes to values, in some cases, this might be the more important characteristic (as opposed to evidence-based) distinguishing the one made-up convention (or fiction) from the other made-up convention.

Okay, I'm done. :)

...

Afterthought...

So basic ideas, just like plans, strategies, playbooks, methods, policies, etc. can be assessed/judged ad hoc (after the fact, after the testing, after the play-action) for their productive value or benefit - and then the outcomes/results become the... evidence. Thus "evidence-based".

"Who knew it could be so complicated?" :)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 3, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
Belief...a loaded concept given that there are so many ways (often contradictory) that lead to belief or non belief.
When it comes to God, I rest comfortably in my non belief.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal..."

Good thing Jefferson didn't overthink it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 3, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal..."

Nice.

v2) "We hold these truths to be evidence-based that all men are created equal..."

v3) We hold these ideas (cf: conventions, formulas, propositions, sets of ideas, constructions, made-ups, statements, declarations) to be self-evident that Man has rights under Nature...


Interesting though that usage panel (Merriam-Webster) does NOT equate "evident" (clear to the vision or understanding) and "evidentiary" or "evidential" (designating or of evidence) in any instance.



Food for thought...

"Yes, self-evident but not evidence-based, Sir."
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jan 3, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
Shakespeare is not God.
Messages 10161 - 10180 of total 10269 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews