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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
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Groups can do pretty much as they please. The Boy Scouts have some large groups here in the winters down in Indian Cove. YMCA, etc all the same. If they hire a guide service, then there are restrictions on where we get to go if it's on weekends/holidays.
little Z has a point. Nobody but a competing top rope specialist gives a good goddamn.
You might want to think a little bit on that attitude. There are some broader issues here. This has nothing to do with top roping.
I'll give you a hint, think land managers, access, liability.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Oct 20, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
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Thanks for the reply rlf. I agree that it is not about top roping, and only slightly about crowds. IMHO, it is about access, RCED not paying their way and (probably) a pair of marginally experienced climbers selling lessons to noob's who really don't know any better.
FWIW, it really looks like these folks are running a guide service in JT with no permit.
This is from their website:
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stormeh
climber
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Oct 20, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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Man, you guys are really sh1tt1ng on this woman. I'm guessing the most vehement detractors have "pirate guided" at least several times in their lives, probably when they were new to guiding and couldn't cough up the money for permits and/or insurance.
rlf, what say you? Have you ever pirate guided in your life? Perhaps when you were just starting out?
I also find it funny how ST sh1ts all over AMGA certification but then seems to require it when they don't like a new guiding company, and says "look, these guys aren't even certified!"
I agree that in an ideal world, all guides should have proper certifications, permits, insurance, etc. But do you really have to be so harsh on someone that is trying to share their love of rock climbing with n00bs, and make barely enough money to survive doing it?
I feel like the old guard are the ones that are protesting the loudest in this thread, even though their entire guiding career was in the heyday when none of the things they are calling for were required.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
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stormeh.....old guard, noob, man, woman.....who cares! The bottom line is Rock Climbing Every Day is operating a pirate guide service in a national park, and regardless of whether the detractors have done it or not, IT ISN'T RIGHT. Time for the Tar & Feathers!!!!!
edit...drljefe is soooo right. What a "BARNEY!"
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 20, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
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I like the idea of The Cosmic Craigsman's School of Rock.
We could get an old school bus and paint it colors and stuff. Drive it out to the desert every weekend.
Get a busdriver that looks just like Manson.
$50 bucks a head, paid in cash, directly to Cosmic. Plus travel expenses and $5 for a cheap BBQ hot dog and a bag of chips.
BLM land only: Graffiti, broken glass, whatever.
And, they would get some good instruction, Cuz that dood does know how to climb.
EDIT: Motto " Yer just gonna die anyway. "
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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Nope, I have not. I learned a long time ago the problems and the stigma this creates in small communities. It has taken me a long time to become a member of this community. I have worked hard to get where I am today. Am I some kind of hot shot guide? Nope. I do my job well, and I take pride in the job I do.
I received a phone call from a friend of mine who lives in the L.A. area. He and some friends developed a small area with about 40+ sport routes. This was with their own money. They took the time to create established trails to the climbs, and maintain them.
There are now getting really worried the BLM will start seeing the vegetation damage etc and close the place down.
Then comes Olga. Apparently she has been bringing huge groups to an area that cannot handle that much constant traffic. Apparently the area is now getting trashed due to the amount of traffic. Lot's of new trails despite their efforts to keep it contained. Litter ect. They have tried to talk with her about this but she just isn't interested in listening.
Despite Todd's plea's of what a delicate princess she is, the more I am hearing the more I am realizing she could care less about anything or anyone other than herself.
The people who put these routes up are concerned because it's on BLM land. They never imagined somebody would start massively abusing the area like this. I trust his word.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 20, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
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"IMHO, it is about access, RCED not paying their way and (probably) a pair of marginally experienced climbers selling lessons to noob's who really don't know any better."
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
Same kinda bullshit happens in all kinds of professions, though. Caveat emptor, is the usual retort amongst those who don't have much of a stake in the whole affair.
To those who make it a career choice, though, and want to do the best work they can do, it really sucks having put all of time & effort into your career, only to be perceived by the customer as equivalent (and cheaper!) than some unskilled, well-intended, inexperienced upstart. (I'm not gonna mention REI's Outdoor School as being in this same vane. Ooops...I just did.)
Edit: " ...the more I am hearing the more I am realizing she could care less about anything or anyone other than herself."
I'm down with you most all the way, but to be honest, I don't get this sense about Olga. Her program is just another well-intended, naive, inexperienced 'guiding' program in our industry. Annoying, but not necessarily with ill intent.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
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vein
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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Apogee, I frankly thought the same thing in the beginning. But, the more I've been digging, the more I see her game. She has some very clever way's of skirting the system. She love's the meetup and groupon sites. She just says it's a day of climbing with friends. Yet, she is charging per head.
I've received some emails etc, not to mention the phone call that indicate to me otherwise.
She has completely refused to answer any direct questions. But she completely claims this huge complex that everybody is out to get her. I ain't buying it for a second.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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"Your So VAIN." You probably think this post is about you, don't you, you're so VAIN.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Oct 20, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
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I got almost no skin in this game and I go to JT only a few times a year, but I am curious about this. I have a few friends that guide (legally, with permits) here in AZ and know that the local land managers look don't like and go after pirate guides. With that in mind, I am curious how RCED gets away with it in a place like JT. She obviously doesn't have permits to guide there, and yet she is guiding. Does she just lie to the rangers? Does she have her "clients" lie too? How does it work?
That being said, tapping into the MeetUp system and helping people to move from gym to crag seems like a good business opportunity. One of you experienced guides should be ALL OVER THIS, and provide this potential customer base with the opportunity to learn from some legal and experienced guides. Then again, I have no experience with this market and I might be way off.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 20, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
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What if I only want to rock climb on Thursdays?
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
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Dave Kos.......as rlf has indicated previously, with minimal searching (Olga, Rock Climb Every Day, Yelp .... or Inland Empire Christian Climbing Group) you'll find that Olga has tapped into Yelp, Facebook, Groupon, Meetup, Christian churches, etc. She has left NO stone unturned regarding utilizing social media to tap into the potential for beginning climbers hungry to get out of the gym and TR in a highly social situation.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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What if I only want to rock climb on Thursdays?
I'm available. The only problem is that your young, smart, capable, and will out climb me :) I on the other hand am old.
As far as the marketing is concerned, that's up to the owners of the schools. Those groupon/meetup groups are bottom dollar at best.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 20, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
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Take it easy Ben Chapman.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
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I've said a number of times on this thread, all she has to do is get her permits and insurance in order and she can do whatever she wants to do.
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DVS
Trad climber
Downey, Ca.
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Oct 20, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
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Anyone with connected brain cells should demand complete and total transparency from the organization that they are intrusting their lives to. If said company refuses to provide it, run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. I totally agree with the statement that this impacts the entire climbing community in a negative way. This is the kind of thing that ends up denying us access. Beyond that, if I were Bob Gains, or some other guide, I'd be pissed at the fact that I'm complying by shelling out the big bucks for a permit and insurance only to have some rogue outfit moving into my turf free of charge and with no credentials, and probably snaking potential clients with their cut-rate prices that they can afford to offer because they haven't spent the money to be in compliance. The first time someone gets hurt and land management gets sued, we'll all be impacted. The climbing community needs to come together and shut this down before they shut us down.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Oct 20, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
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I disagree any bonehead can learn to do it you did. It's not rocket science. I think you could get a couple of college credits for what a day of guided rock climbing costs.
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Jawon
climber
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Oct 20, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
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In all seriousness, there seem to be some reasonable charges here against RCED. As an unbiased observer, I'd say silence hurts rather than helps.
I'm not one to jump to conclusions, but I also don't have much appetite for people and businesses who try to sweep issues under the rug... or claim to follow the letter of the law but knowingly break the spirit of it.
If you are legal, how hard is it to respond? I have no skin in this game so maybe I should shut up, but it just rubs me really wrong when businesses are shady at the expense of their customers as well as other businesses trying to do things the right way. This does not seem to be a victimless offense.
So who's gonna start a "pirate guide" thread?
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