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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 20, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
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Awww, dammit.
It is vein.
I hate it when TGT is right about something.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 20, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
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"She obviously doesn't have permits to guide there, and yet she is guiding. Does she just lie to the rangers? "
Report her & her group, the next time you or anyone else sees them in the Park. It would make my heart sing, along with many other legitimate operators. As mentioned, the Rangers have been more diligent in recent years about checking the SUA's of any organized group they encounter in the Park.
Without getting too far into the weeds, there are different types of operating permits for groups in JTNP. Traditional guiding operations fall pretty squarely within the Special Use Authorization system, but there are TONS of other users that climb in the Park under differing operating models...and there's several types of permits to accommodate them.
You can get a SUA for short term use....some groups operate under other organization's SUA's...some groups hold a different type of permit if they are more volunteer/non-paid in nature (i.e. Scouts, school/church groups). They pretty much have to follow the Park's requirement to have an AMGA or PCGI certified guide present, but there's lots of creative ways to work around that.
Groups like MeetUp probably fit into some weird gray area that the Park hasn't clearly adapted to (yet). Make some noise, though, and help put a light on it. We'd all appreciate it.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:27am PT
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the sad truth is the gym has moved outside
this is what has ruined the Gunks
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Olga_i
Trad climber
Ontario, CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 01:45am PT
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Ok, is past midnight and I am just having the time a night to respond to all these posts. But not before I had to reply to some emails. Yes, we get emails too, from the same guys here and that one other area that was mentioned on this post, we supposedly bring large groups to and trash.
We understand the locals and that mentality to want to keep the crag to themselves, I know how that feels. I have been a local before, when I use to surf. We have made it a point to wait a while before we go back, so that the locals can come to realize is not us disturbing the peace and trashing the place. Funny we have even been accused of bringing a big dog into the area, when we don't even own a dog.
We are friendly and meet people just about anywhere. So when we walk into a crag, we see people we have met before at gyms or at other crags. We say hello to them, regardless of if we know them or not. This does not make us friends or guilty of bringing them to the crag.
The places we have been to recently, get frequent visits from motorcycle riders and teenage drunks. We do our share to pick up trash from trails, and we do our part in keeping natural resources and vegetation intact. All this talk about us bringing large groups that are trashing certain crags, is a lie. There may be some confusion as to what number of people we bring and how many of the many that visit the crag, on a certain day, are with us. There is nothing we can do about other visitors.
Like I told someone who emailed me earlier, trade secrets are not to be construed as illegal activity.
Everyone can jump into conclusions about Jtree, but we don't do guiding at the national park. We own land/property in the area and we have all the liability insurance and appropriate permits we need to teach where needed.
As someone here mentioned, Meetup is a great market all guiding services should be tapping into. Meetup is not a Christian network. Meetup is an online world-wide community based network founded by a man that was in NY, and lived there when 911 happened. He realized how many of his neighbors he did not know. How many people were forced together by the horrible event and decided to do something about it. He saw a problem with the community, and he tried to bring something to the world, a tool that would help organizers around the world bring community members together and meet. Simple as that.
About Meetup:
Meetup is the world's largest network of local groups. Meetup makes it easy for anyone to organize a local group or find one of the thousands already meeting up face-to-face. More than 9,000 groups get together in local communities each day, each one with the goal of improving themselves or their communities.
Meetup's mission is to revitalize local community and help people around the world self-organize. Meetup believes that people can change their personal world, or the whole world, by organizing themselves into groups that are powerful enough to make a difference.
I have been organizing events of many different interests for them for years. Long before the thought of RCED.
I was offered several guiding jobs before RCED and I introduced meetup to them as a networking and advertising tool. There is a group for just about any interest, from cooking to surfing, and all in between. And as we speak, there are some guiding companies that are using it already.
On a nice day, we may post a climbing outing for climbers and we limit number of RSVPs allowed for one event to 10 members. So if I am going with my husband, that leaves room for only 8 more people. RSVP lists rarely get full, so when it does, there may be 10 of us, in which case we will find a far away place that is not hit by crowds so we can climb together and not hog up routes. I have been to crags before, especially at Jtree, where you reach a wall you want to climb and a large crowd arrives only to hog up the entire wall without even to common courtesy of asking if we are going to climb a certain route. They simply walk up and drop their rope in front of you, as if cutting in the line would seem ok. We don't argue with people like this, we just educate them. We tell them, nicely, so that when the situation arises again, they don't repeat their mistake. We don't take it personal, because we know they need to be educated. Do they listen? I don't know. We do our share to educate and move on.
I also organize larger events, in which 20, 30 or even 50 people can attend, but these events are not related to climbing what so ever. Some are camping trips, some are weekend adventures, others are hiking. I have a camping trip coming up in Jtree, where I was able to get a campsite for 20 people. Out of that 20 people, only about 5 of us are climbers, and the rest are people that just like plain old camping, hiking, bird watching, star gazing, photographing, etc. So I am sure, there will be many assumptions on that trip and lots of talk about me bring 20 climbers out there - but that won't be the case at all.
Back to when we post climbing events, we expect everyone to already know all the fundamentals. Pretty much have the adequate experience or have taken the classes necessary to gain the required experience necessary to climb outdoors with us. Those climbing events are not business related, so basically we are just gathering with old friends, new friends, and strangers. Yes, strangers because this is what meetup.com is all about. You build a group based on a particular interest, you post your events, and anyone who has joined your particular group can RSVP to your event. Then we all get together, we sit down to talk and after getting to know each other and learning each new person's skill level we decide what to climb. All dependant on the group number of people, and level of skills. If we have some climbers that can only climb 5.5 and we have others that can climb 5.12s then we try and find some walls that can provide us all those options and in between. We don't charge anyone for this. This is where many people get confused. People are supposed to already have experience, bring their own equipment and if they don't have all the proper equipment they need to ask and if accepted into the event, they need to do their share to help carry gear in and out of the crag. Same goes for those beginners, we welcome at times - if such is possible and we educate them (not a class or guiding service) we simply tell them you need to get your own gear, do you have questions regarding what to get? Stuff like that. And even at times, we meet beginners that get to know us, like us, and trust us enough to ask when will our next class will be. This is one of the many reasons why we are different. We build relationships with people on a regular basis. We give people a change to get to know us first too. Tell me how many companies you know do that? Can you call anybody from any other company and say, "hey can I get to know you first for free?" or "hey, can I come out and watch you climb for free?" That is what we encounter on meetup all of the time and we call it an opportunity. There are many people out there that just want to come to climbing outings to get a free ride, and they show up with no gear expecting a belay and freeloaders left and right. We educate them, get your own gear, get experience, or get your free ride elsewhere. Simple as that.
We are a small and family operated business. We also take our family and friends out climbing with us for free. Just like any friend would for another. So just because you see a small group of orange or matching helmets, doesn't necessarily mean we are guiding.
Another reason why I see people get confused with meetup, these meetup invitations are open to our students. Once someone has taken a class with us, they are free to join any of our groups and go climbing with us on a personal level or even join us for dinner on a Friday night. Last Friday, when you were all here beating on us, we were out having dinner through a meetup event I organized and we met a lot of nice people. Some live close by, some live far away. Some were interested in what we do, as well as we were interested in what they do. And all of a sudden I have a new contact person for photographs, a new local person that loves to dance is going to look for places around town that offer dancing so she can invite us, and out of all the people that we met - about 3 of them were interested in trying climbing. Is THAT simple. We just step outside the box, and meet people. Plan camping events. Last weekend we Ziplined in Wrightwood, while being out there camping for the weekend. Introduced several people to the magical world of camping. So simple. Everyone we meet on a regular basis is a potential client for business or personal use, or a potential friend, or all 3. RCED sponsors several meetup groups, one thing is totaly unrelated from meetup itself. Just like people plan trips on meetup that include airfare, but meetup is not responsible for the airline. Or dinners, meetup is not responsible for restaurant foods. Our groups also have other sponsors, including gyms and others.
Back to us, someone brought kids into the picture to earn sympathy. We have 3 of them. We are human, humble and caring people. We are not rolling in the doe like most people think here. We are not skipping steps or cutting corners to make this happen. That is not our mission, nor our program. I am sorry I don't have more time here, is really too time consuming for us. And as I told someone else here too who emailed us, Bob Gains is our inspiration. We need to gain the years of experience, as Bob Gaines did, to earn people’s trust and respect. I am willing to wait for that.
Good night
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 21, 2014 - 02:03am PT
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I am going to read it...It has been read, saying very much ..not saying anything...
I will say
you are a big stinky turd
that climbing spawend such an evil and self serving pile of crap is of no surprise
S T F U you are going to do what ever you want that is clear
Jealous old men who deserve more respect,
and hard working REAL SKILLED EXPERIANCED guides will suffer
so will access and climbing
and you do not care
I HAVE KIDS, TOO, AND TRY NOT TO SWEAR.
After talking to my ten year old and thinking what's the point I felt that I should not say
any more
Fire Flames and no rest to you
the number one rule is Do not wreck it for every one, by messing it up.
the rule above shortens down to a very nice swear but as you and I both have kids
I will not go there
your savvy business acumen is what is pissing off some, not me. I object to a lot of things;
the lack of foresight, for one.
the fact that the exponential damage that will result from you and your gumby horde
is some thing that you wash your hands of,and take no responsibility for.
indoors is coming outside and wrecking the place!
How is that indoor gym thing going?
it is clearly making YOU money
so I guess it is workin' for ya
very funny that you would try and pull the- "we have kids too" stuff
the concern is- that monkey see monkey do,- will as it did in the east,
Get places shut down.
if you do the math then it is only a matter of time before regulations will
ruin the freedom that is left in the hills
Good day
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Oct 21, 2014 - 06:15am PT
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We are not rolling in the doe
do you mean, rolling with the doe?
or rolling the dough?
aaaah, you mean rolling in the dough!
now I get it
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 06:16am PT
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Olga,
You really are the master of spin and crying out like the wounded lamb to the wolf.
As a number of us have pointed out, you have lot's of non answers to direct questions. I did love the part about how locals want the crags to themselves. Again, the wounded lamb routine. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you honestly believe that, then you are delusional.
The groupon/meetup's is pure cover up. What a great marketing arm. You can organize these, list it as sponsored by Olga, then while people are having fun you can now talk up your guide services. The only problem here is that you are not permitted or insured.
You speak of Bob Gaines as your inspiration. Great, Bob's a good guy, he run's an excellent school with excellent guides. If he is inspiring to you, then follow the big arrow that points to permits and insurance.
Frankly, I seriously question and doubt you're ability to not only guide, but to assess the skills of the so called "guides" that you might hire. If you honestly think that Right On was a hard and lousy climb, and that the decent was way to long and difficult, you have no business guiding. That thing is a walk in the park. That decent is trivial compared to some of the stuff that's out here, yosemite, red rocks etc.
So let's simplify this whole thread into a few basic direct questions:
1) Are you insured for liability?
2) Are you permitted to guide in the areas you guide in?
3) NONE OF THE ABOVE
See, that's not hard.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Oct 21, 2014 - 07:28am PT
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I've not read all the postings so kinda clueless how this thread evolved. I wish I could climb, period !!!!! I have a severe case of that damn Plantar fasciitis so there won't be any climbing in my near future. Yes, feeling sorry for myself....I freaking can't even walk, argh!
I love to climb and it is the one activity that keeps me sane, SO, for the time being I will succumb to insanity:)
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Oct 21, 2014 - 07:30am PT
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Olga said:
...Everyone can jump into conclusions about Jtree, but we don't do guiding at the national park...
But yet on your website you show this:
It looks like an event taking place at JTree National Park. It is not the only one. I counted at least 60 events listed as taking place at JTree. You also have numerous pics of some kind of group climbing at JTree National Park. I recognize the crag, and it is definitely in the park. So, my question is a simple one;
How do you reconcile your quote above with the fact that you advertise paid events taking place at Jtree?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 21, 2014 - 07:42am PT
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I agree with Dingus. You're a good man Todd.
Pirate guiding has gone on since the very beginning. I can personally name some world class climbers who practice pirate guiding. But I won't.
That being said, I won't be going to any top rope areas where a group dating site is taking shape.
Keep it safe folks!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Oct 21, 2014 - 07:49am PT
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Olga, You go girl!
Thank you for including low impact ethics in your program.
I've never met a climber who left tape, trash and empty water bottles at the base of the crag but I sure have seen it.
Guys, If I took a big old Boy Scout Troop out to JT or TC or anywhere (which could happen). No one would say squat.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 21, 2014 - 09:35am PT
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Olga, I'd appreciate some clear answers to some of those basic operational questions, too, if you don't mind.
Expanding & refining some of rlf's questions:
*What are the specific crags where you offer your MeetUps? (NP's, USFS, BLM, other)
*For each of those sites, do you hold a commercial operating permit there?
*Does your company have a commercial liability policy? What are the limits?
*How many employees does your company have?
*Do you treat them as formal employees (payroll taxes deducted, worker's comp), or as Independent Contractors?
*What are the minimum qualifications & certifications of your guides/instructors?
That was quite the lengthy tome you posted last night, but it still leaves a number of specific questions unanswered. I'd appreciate your indulgence.
And for the record...I don't necessarily take issue with the operational model of using MeetUp- it's an intriguing strategy, actually. I have a much stronger opinion on the basic operating structure of outdoor programs, how this affects the industry & user experience, and fair competition amongst providers.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Oct 21, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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Everyone can jump into conclusions about Jtree, but we don't do guiding at the national park
Then explain the photos of your "clients" at Trashcan Rock.
So just because you see a small group of orange or matching helmets, doesn't necessarily mean we are guiding.
Bullsh#t, plain and simple. All of your "friends who are climbers and just happened to meet up with you" all forgot their helmets at home and you brought an extra bag of them? Do you really think we are that stupid?
I agree with the above - I know that RLF has a dog in this hunt and will probably help take steps to get this illegal group out of the park. This thread has enough content on them to affect their business as it is.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:04am PT
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Well, apparently there is a serious lack of reading comprehension skills in this thread. There is a far bigger picture than just JT. This isn't about JT. This is about guiding without insurance or permits on public lands. You pretty much can't swing a dead cat without hitting federal land management. NFS, NPS, BLM. Then we get to the state and county/city land managers.
With the litigious nature of society these days, the insurance is the biggest. In no way am I saying that Olga will personally crash the system. But she is a prime example of what potentially can crash the system. The last thing the climbing and the guiding community needs is more intervention from land managers. Believe me, they are in the position to do it, and they will if they feel the need.
By the way, to keep the record straight, I didn't contact the park service. They contacted me. That was two months ago. I want to be very clear on this point.
Simply put, Olga has created this sh#t storm all by herself. She has yet to answer any direct questions with honest direct answers. I also am not buying her claim to how low impact her groups are.
Believe it or not, there is far more to managing a group of people than just making sure the knot is tied correctly and their harness is correct. One of our jobs is to ensure that our clients are not completely trashing the area. It ain't easy once you have someone on the end of the rope and you have people milling about behind you. You have to have eyes in the back of your head.
Simply put, we are stewards of the areas we work in.
Get your insurance and permits Olga, then all this will end. In know way am I attempting to take food off someones table, steal their income or anything else like it. There are certain rules we all have to play by. If you get all this straightened out, welcome to the game!
Also, let's keep any personal insults out of this. It serves no purpose. That's not what this is about.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:17am PT
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The point is taken no personal insults. Sorry.
If Olg_i has friends in high places they will skate along with out being questioned or sited.
The group of Professionals needs to go the Other Way, Go top down.
(Who is in charge, Todd Swain? he knows from the Gunks how to do this)
Join forces, get a free legal advocate and send a letter of intent to all the powers that be.
Stating that you all are also suspending compliance until enforcement is extended to all the parties that advertise or organize groups or whatever.
Seems to me that if you approach this right you can undo decades of regulation, or threaten to.
Are you, as professionals, held to a higher standard for any reasons?
Why is this unfit business, exempt?
She picked your High season on purpose, Point that out. Time is of the essence.
Then tell the Law enforcement Officers to show up that should have a chilling effect.
It is the contract that is in force; you agree to carry insurance and limit the number of clients per guide etc., and the powers that be are under contract to enforce the rules to give a ‘level playing field’ to all.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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So from now of make sure you follow every single rule, regulation and law in the grand old United States of America...
Are you kidding me? You can't even breathe without breaking a law. I can just see the future, "Sorry you took to many breaths. You get to spend the next 20 years in prison watching your cellmate Bob eat his mattress."
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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Hypocrites ONE and ALL!!!...
United we stand, together we fall!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Oct 21, 2014 - 11:57am PT
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What about grinding and driving?
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
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In just 4-hrs of hands-on instruction in the fundamentals of setting top-rope anchors, with Rock Climb Every Day, you too can build bombproof anchors like this. A "must take" class if you want go outdoors.
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