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Paul
Trad climber
Muir Beach, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 9, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Just got back from the Yo. We came down the Gunsight (between Lower & Middle Cathedral), and WHAT THE F*CK! Someone had spray painted bright orange dots marking the way down, on the rock face. There were about 15 "dots" mostly in the middle section. I came down the Gunsight in July, and there were not dots, so this is a recent job. Forgive me if I am an old stoggy back-country trad climber, but I did not know it was okay to spray paint the rock. Any one out there know what's going on?
Thanks,
Paul
PS - there was a rattle snake at the lower sling (tree) anchor. Of course, next to a spray painted dot.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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weak sauce
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Mimi
climber
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This should be interesting. Unless it was a rescue.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Looks like another Facelift project.
Ken
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Mimi
climber
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Maybe it's temporary paint.
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Orange dots on the talus on the way to Dana, too.
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Mimi
climber
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The plot thickens. Must be rescue. If not, Ultrabiker, get the rope.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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it sounds like the trail markings you see at squamish, up to the grand wall, or at many trails off the carriage road at the gunks. in those cases it's more to keep people on trail and decrease the "social trail" affect from wandering climbers.
good thing someone made that descent "safe", lordy only knows what all these climbers did before 2006!
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Paul
Trad climber
Muir Beach, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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Nothing was temporary about this paint. I'm still finding it hard to beleive that someone drags a can of bright orange spray paint up/down a gully to mark the way. Feck, go to the gym if you want to mark the place up. After scratching around on a couple new and old school routes, the last thing I want to come across is some pee-pee face weenie marking the way.
Errrrrr...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I only use day glow orange, so it was not me.
Juan
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Ouch!
climber
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Maybe it was directing you to the rattlesnake.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 12:02am PT
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No rescue occurred in the Gunsight, we never paint markings, we use flagging and at night cyalume lightsticks if we need.
Strange .........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 10, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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I think the snake did it.
yeah.
That's the ticket.
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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It is totally bogus. Pretty soon they,ll have passing lanes on the Nose.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 12:57am PT
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Good idea john. I will design big wall traffic lights.
LED's of course, to conserve power ..........
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 01:27am PT
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Perhaps you could set up small solar panels on dolt tower or mammoth ledges for the season and light up the routes with fiber optic cables .
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LuckyPink
Mountain climber
north bay today/someplace else tomorrow
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Sep 10, 2006 - 01:59am PT
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I've seen this type of trail marking in other areas outside USA, ie Russia, Italy, Mexico.. hope someone gets it off. I'm sure that's a bureaucratic mess to use an actual solvent chemical in an environment managed by the feds. May have to be covert.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2006 - 03:10am PT
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It's totally wrong and out of line.
But just for a little tidbit from the past, the ledge trail used to be marked with paint.
Peace
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Sep 10, 2006 - 03:14am PT
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I knew YOSAR wasn't behind it.
If Werner and his Crew were painting up their rescues there would be orange spots all over The Valley.
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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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Sep 10, 2006 - 08:21am PT
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wbraun wrote
> Good idea john. I will design big wall traffic lights.
This was done once on "Traffic Jam Chimney" at Seneca.
I think a generator was hauled up to power the traffic signals.
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BPorter
Big Wall climber
Quartz Hill, Ca
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Sep 10, 2006 - 03:44pm PT
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Don't know about the dots in the Gunsight, but this is normal practice in the European Alps. Spent some time in both the Bavarian Alps and the mountains outside of Innsbruck. All trails had either fully painted small rocks or painted dots on larger rocks along trails. Sooooo, the Euros did it!!!
Cracko
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Michael Golden
climber
Mountain View, CA
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Sep 10, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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>But just for a little tidbit from the past, the ledge trail used to be marked with paint.
The ledge trail still is marked with paint, isn't it? It was a few years ago. Maybe you meant "back in the day, somebody marked the ledge trail with paint." I don't recall requiring the paint on the ledge trail in order to find the proper route.
It (the ledge trail, not the paint) is good fun once you get past the loose and fresh glacier point rockfall debris, which is both tedious and disconcerting.
-Michael
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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To the DayGlo Alpine Tag Artist:
In the near absence of any scathing open criticism, whoever you are and for whatever reason you or your party deem this kind of flagrant and illegal degradation of the environment necessary to meet the needs, real or imagined, of your party, to travel safely in a National Park (much of which is wilderness), let me be absolutely clear. You belong in jail and should immediately and inequivocably cease to spray paint anything than your face. Cairns are one thing, other trail markers another. Permanent orange spray paint is right out.
Anybody involved in establishing this blight needs to come forward if they don't understand the impact. If you think you are justified, think again. Nobody's needs are served here other than some overzealous need to protect people from themselves. While this is common abroad, and has some local historical precedent, it is complete and utter bullsh#t. Surely it would be better for you, or whomever you're seeking to assist, that you learn the navigation skills necessary to move through this terrain, as so many others before you, and leave no trace. Whoever you are, knock it off.
Disrectfully yours,
Mimi deGravelle
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Sep 10, 2006 - 06:12pm PT
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Ms deGravelle is right.
The Painters didn't need paint to find their way, but they think the rest of us are too stupid to find our own way. A condenscending attitude permanently immortalized on stone. An insult to my intelligence and route-finding abilities, and outright theft of my accomplishment of finding my own way.
Thieves, Vandals, and Know-It-All Jackasses who we would all be better off without.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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Here's what you do:
Backpack sprayer full of water, and spray cans of removal 330 or 320 or 310, whichever is the spray can.
Removal is environlmentally safe, and it works great.
YOu can find it on the internet, used to be 8 or so bucks a can.
I have used this stuff before, you have to stay with it and keep it damp with freahs spraying for severl hours and then rinse off the bubbled up paint with water.
I'll talk details with you if you like, email me, or ask here.
I have pics of test patches done on old graffiti on sandstone with removall if yo uwant to see em.
Whenever we can get good enforcement, we (THe City forester n me, plus helpers) are going to removal all the graffiti from the city park that has our best boulderfield around Bham Alabama, moss Rock Preserve, in The city of Hoover, which had the good fortune to gain a gift of the boulders and the wisdom ro take care of them, unlike Atlanta, where the Southeastern Climbers Coalition had to BUY as much of Boat Rock as we could afford, to save it from developers, who blew up many nice granite boulders.
And to whoever did the spray painting, unless it was for rescue, You truly suck. Screw Europe and what's common there. Spray painting rock is viewed as disgusting here I hope you get your ass beat, which is what vandals deserve at the very least.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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Dingus,
IF anone wants the crap off there, I'm telling how to do it, in the best way possible. There is no easy way. If it is not removed, that stupid paint will be there for years.
ONe more thing, when you wash off the residue, its probably a good idea to have something like paper towels to catch the crud with the pigment and binder in it.
YOu know, I've been experimenting with Graffiti removal for years, there are a lot of things people try that actually make the problem harder to fix, or damage the rock.
THe procedure I outlined has been tested, it works quite well, and you ought to have a little respect.
What do you have against coming up with something helpful?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 11, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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I for one fully support the color marking of all approaches and descents in The Yosemite Valley.
Juan
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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'THe procedure I outlined has been tested, it works quite well, and you ought to have a little respect.
What do you have against coming up with something helpful?'
The gunsight isn't some 40' chosspile you can just stroll up to with a pack sprayer full of water.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
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weak
how old was the stuff? could have been there quite a while as there aren't too many crews going down the gunsight anyway. (lower is closed half the year for perigrines).
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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I... confess... I did it.
I also chopped down the cherry tree.
Personally I think that it was a Bush/Clinton job.
Anyway, it sounds lame.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 11, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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Spent some time in the Bavarian Alps and the mountains outside of Innsbruck. Trails were marked with painted rocks or dots painted on bigger rocks. Don't know how you could get lost as you could always see the next mountain hut!! Soooo, as for Gunsight, it had to be Euros !!!
Cracko
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 11, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
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Is it even possible to get lost once you're in the Gunsight? Perhaps it's the handywork of nonclimbers who are going up it to fish in Bridalveil Creek or hike around?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 11, 2006 - 05:26pm PT
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Is it wrong to assume that this has "Euro" written all over it?
Last time I saw orange dots was going up to the Torres del Paine lookout in Patagonia. There was one about every 30ft, it was rediculous and ugly...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:20pm PT
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HEy caughtinzipper, shut your pie hole, moron.
You are totally clueless as usual.
If you had any decency about you, you'd be trying to help fx the problem, not carping at me, you little SH!T.
I don't give a fvck how big it is, it can be cleaned up.
But not by pissants like you, who only bitch.
It will take a lot of work by people who care about such things, and they won't be bitchy little internet sport climbers.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:26pm PT
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Dirtineye
Can you link me a website here for the 330 or whatever it's called removal product.
Thanks in advance, WB
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:27pm PT
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Ok loser. Keep posting your great 'advice' about things and places you don't understand and have never been to.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Sep 11, 2006 - 07:54pm PT
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"Can you link me a website here for the 330 or whatever it's called removal product."
I think he was talking about products on this page:
http://www.biowash.com/products/
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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Davidji
Ok, thanks, got it.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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Werner, sure.
BTW, I foudn this:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado__rocky_mountain_region/happy_hour_peace_signs/105828802__1
These people did NOT take my advice, and they screwed up,as I warned in my posts about graffiti removal. YO ucan see what happened in their pics.
Now they have created a really tough problem.
here is the original post I made about removall:
The products are Removall 330 and its cousin 320, if I remember correctly.
They are environmentally safe.
One is spray on, the other is paint on. I have used both. Both work, both are tedious, both are expensive. The process takes time, but works very well.
What you do:
Low-powered water spray. A LOW-powered pressure washer if the rock is hard enough, backpack sprayer if unable to get access for the P-washer, any sort of hand sprayer will work, but it takes a while. (the back pack sprayers used in lawn care are one example).
You can buy Removall in spray cans, (expensive but good for places with small graffiti or difficult access) or in 5 gallon tubs and use a paint sprayer.
The point is, whether you paint it on or spray it on, it must remain gooey-- it must not dry out.
This means repeated coats for several hours in very bad cases.
After the product has worked, (more on how in a second) you Gently spray it off with very light water pressure, from an angle, not directly or perpendicular to the rock. (why in a bit)
This takes all day. If done correctly, you will be amazed. I have thought of starting a business to do this, but as I am a bit under the weather now, it ain't going to happen. And besides, nobody really takes the issue seriously enough in my opinion, but maybe they will some day.
OK, the theory (well not just a theory, it's been shown to be true):
This product works by lifting the PIGMENT AND binder. It does not dissolve the binder like strippers, it gets under the binder and pigment, and bubbles it off mechanically. This takes a long time.
Graffiti with more binder is easier to get off that than that with less.
Old is harder to get off than new, because the binder fades but the pigment remains, in the pores of the rock.
Flat paint is harder than gloss paint, because gloss has more binder, and the glossy crap too, and sits on top better, while flat has a different binder that soaks in more. UGH! Still the treatment works, it just may take more applications.
YOU NEED A LOT OF PATIENCE AND DETERMINATION TO GET THIS RIGHT.
IF the graffiti had been blasted with a high-powered pressure washer, pigment may have been driven deep into the rock, and these shadows may never come out. SO, NO HIGH POWERED P-WASHERS, got it? Good!
Also, HPPwashers will fvck up the rock badly, chipping it and etching it. You can dig holes in concrete with a HPPwasher, don't use one to remove graffiti from rock NO MATTER WHO tells you it is OK, OK???
I can post pics of test patches on old and new Graffiti, removed with the spray-can version of Removall, on hard sandstone. Did this with the city forester of Hoover, AL, in MRP.
One day when we have good enforcement and houses nearby with neighbors to report a$$holes spraying, we will remove all the graffiti with these methods that we have tested.
BTW, it had been several years now, the product is truly safe, the rock has not suffered at all, and I am sold on it.
We also used the brush-on stuff at sandrock with some success, but the fvcking redneck 'artists' saw a new canvas and re-painted the place within 6 months.
They should all be in prison, strung up by their thumbs in my opinion.
I think that's about it, if you have questions or I left something out, let me know.
I think I will post this to its own thread, and maybe others would like to know about this but they might not see it here.
Curt Johnson
IT is hard to find 330 now apparently! All my old links are dead, LOL. I have the address of the company that makes it somewhere, I'll try to dig that up.
Here is a place to buy 320, the 5 gallong brushable cousin of 330, the spray can, and 310, the 5 gallon can that you need a power paint sprayer for.
http://www.dtep.com/removall.htm
Here is a place that apparently has a pump sprayer of removal, as well as the others:
http://www.biowash.com/products/RemovALL.php
THis place does not have a good website, DOH, I guess you would haveto call em to make sure you get the right thing.
Really, I have used the 320 too, as the old post says, we used that at sand rock, and it works pretty well. And it is much cheaper than buying spray cans, although it is less convenient.
there is also something new, called elephant snot.
http://www.graffitisolutions.tv/graffiti_removal/products/default.htm
I have not used elephant snot, I don;t knwo a thing about it. It might the the cat's meow though, and their shadow max product is waht those guys who screwd up with wire brushes need.
This shadowing is a big problem. it is caused by pressure washing and forcing pgiment deep into the pores of the stone. Rubbing with rages nad scrubbong with wire brtushes can also do some of this.
Once you remove the binder and you have left pigment behind, as in a bad job of cleaning, it is much harder to get the stain off.
Here are some test patches of removal 330 at work. these pics are 4 or 5 years old. I visit this pallace regularly, and the rock is in great shape-- removal does no harm to the stone.
BY the way, some people seem to feel that this removal thing will not work, or that a back pack sprayer can't be dragged up somethiing that people 3rd and 4th class.
Well they are just wrong. Anybody fit can carry 30 or 40 pounds up 5.4 for god's sake. YO ucna take towels to cathc the runoff, which woudl be a good idea.
Sure it's not terribly easy, but I have spent a long time learningthe stuff I wrote, much of it came from experts in graffiti removal, the rest came from actual testing, and I know it works.
Send me a ticket and plan a time when I am not fvcked by the chemo and I'll come help you do it myself.
I fvcking HATE graffiti, and paint vandalizm on rock, I put a lot of effort into fixing it, I've used these products with good success, and damnitall, there just should not be paint on our climbing areas.
Be warned once again that while the removal process is tedious, it is really simple if you follow my instructions.
The things I warned against will screw up your rock if you do them-- again, see proof of that in in the mountain project link.
DO it wrong and you have a long term eyesore.
Leave the vandalism there and others will repeat the act. Monkey see monkey do is one of the guiding principles of graffiti and vandalism in general.
Whoever did the painting needs to be put in jail, and or fined, and that fact needs to be widely publicised.
I suggest that you guys in Yosemite put up signs that say painting the rock is illegal, and painters will be prosecuted.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:28pm PT
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Dirtineye, I've had to deal with graffiti on rocks before and we didn't know what works back then.
This is great information, thanks again .....
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
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Werner, you would not believe what people have had to go through with this to get it right!
It's still an uphill battle, because you have to fight well intensioned ingnorance as well as the graffiti vandals.
I'll say one more time that you have to apply the removal well and keep it wet for several hours for best results, and the newer the paint is the better. also, warmer temps are better than cooler for the stuff to work faster and better.
I'm glad that the info helps you.
Do what you can to spread the gospel of graffiti removal, now that you are enlightened, LOL!
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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How do you know that the dots were marking the way down, and not up?
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ladd
Trad climber
land of fruits, nuts and flakes
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Sep 11, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
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LOL.. its the gunsight.. if you're there, WOW - cool, you just climbed something NICE.. get ready, aim - fire it, and ignore the blighters - they's one in every crowd...
cheers
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
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I suppose a wire brush or one of those plastic sanding wheels on a 12 volt drill might work on 2 or 3 inch marks.They would maybey need a little camo paint or some dirt rubbed into them. Could any of the painted rocks just be flipped over? Werner, would it be illegal to bring a drill like that into the backcountry, even if for a benevolent purpose.
Dirt has the best solution though.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:48am PT
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John, I hope you are joking about drills and wire brushes and camo paint. That is a disaster in the making. Painting over graffiti to camoflage it is a bad idea that gets in people's minds and won't leave, because it sounds simple and easy.
More paint is not the answer. You have to keep going back and touching it up. FOREVER. And it looks bad.
About removall,
ONE more time, and briefly, it is the binder in paint that removers work on. once the binder is gone and the pigment is driven into the rock, you have a big problem. Rubbing with rags or hard brushing can do this.
Given that gunsight is not at ground level, you will need some towels or paper towels to catch the removed paint as you rinse off the removall and paint crud. Spray with the sprayer set on stream, at an angle that is almost parallel to the rock, because you want to get under and lift the layer of goo.
IT's very important that your workers not get in a rush. The removal needs to stay on for possibly hours, and you should keep it wet with fresh coats. Since your paint is new, it may come off much sooner and will be MUCH easier than old paint.
Make some tests to find out the best working time for your situation before you go whole hog with a crew of helpers.
A nylon brush, like a tooth brush, used very lightly, along with the water, may help a little, it depends on how much binder there is and how well the paint loosens, but be very gentle and let the water do most of the work.
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:43am PT
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Graffiti sux...
But there are situations where some judicious use of paint (flat red is more common here in Switzerland) can avoid dangerous detours and unnecessary social "fugowi" trails.
Was at Salbit (www.salbit.ch) this weekend. We spent a lovely night finding our way down a rappel route. Some small reflectors to point out the well hidden rappel anchors (one of them is under a block !) would have saved a few hours on our descent. We were lucky and conditions were balmy, but in bad weather our situation could have become dangerous.
Salbit hut - CHF 20
fresh batteries for the headlamp - CHF 3
moonlight rappel - priceless
What are a few bolts or paint dots compared to these wee holes ?
http://www.blsalptransit.ch/en/frameset_e.htm
http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/
Pascal
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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There's an escalating notion that all "risk" should be removed from outdoor activities, including killing all the predators and rap bolting cracks--and now, spray painting markers down a long-used descent route. It's unlikely that whoever did the painting was just some palooka--those kinds usually stick to the standard trails, and don't come equiped with spray cans. The sad part is that in some minds this person thought they were rendering a service, while others will heap virtue on the effort for making things "safer."
I'm afraid thre's no turning back on this one till the wilderness is totally tamed--meaning it no longer exists.
JL
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
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WEll, that may be Largo, but I hope that this incident and the paint will be erradicated from the face of the rock, and that the perpetrators will be caught and strung up by their thumbs.
Let these Euros build a bigger gym in their own backyard, but don't bring that sh!t here.
Painting on the rock here is vandalism.
Finding your way is called adventure climbing, and if one can't stand the adventure aspect of climbing, especially on a trade route/descent route,then one should stick to single pitch sport climbing or better yet, the gym.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
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I don't know what a paloka is, but I was under the impression that it was relatively common for anglers to go up the Gunsight and know of a few peak bagger types who have sought it out as a 'climb'.
A couple of years back there was a fixed rope on the one short technical section of the Gunshight that had butterfly knotts spaced along it, seemingly for the purpose of going up.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:55pm PT
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Palooka: weak boxer, clumsy person.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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Anglers going up the Gunsight? For what? To fish where?
I remember scrambling down the Gunsight after the first ascent of Mother Earth and don't even recall using a rope--and we were beat and had a pig with us? And so far as the spray paint goes, where do you think folks might get lost in there. They don't call it a Gunsight for nothing (as in straigh shot down). It boggles the mind . . .
JL
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
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I don't fish, but I was told that people liked to do it as part of their fishin' adventure in Bridleveil Creek...when I asked my partner what the rope ladder was for. I would guess that the steep fixed bit would still be scarier for a chubby old guy w/ a fishing rod than it was for you guys with your pigs just getting off of virgin 5.11+R A4 (or whatever scarey grade Mother Earth is rated...)
The (near?) impossibility of getting lost in the Gunsight once you're in it...especially if you had the skills to get yourself to the top of it...is why I figured that most climbers wouldn't want to bother. Did someone climb the E. Buttress of Lower with a can of spraypaint?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
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Anyone know how run out Mother Earth really is? What grade runouts w/ potential injury?
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:22am PT
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Maybe it's that paint they use to mark stuff on road construction? It washes away in the rain?
Why am I painting orange dots in that cartoon, Ouch ? Hahaha
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telemama
Trad climber
midpines
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:57am PT
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Re: questions about if people really go up the gunsight to fish...
Well, I am both a climber and an angler and I went up the Gunsight for both reasons (as an angler I won't divulge where I fished, but it's not hard to figure that one out). I'm not sure why fishing was brought up in the first place. I guess it was part of the witch hunt that is beginning to find the perpetrator. It could have been anyone.
Also, since the image of a fat fisherman was brought up...Imagine scrambling up talus with a 5ft. aluminum case on your back, banging into the rock and almost knocking you backwards as you lean a little too far forward as you ascend the rock. Then fishing all day. (Wait. I'd better explain that too. fishing doesn't always mean sitting in one spot all day, beer in hand, cooler close by. It also means: Casting while standing, rock hopping from pool to pool and bushwacking to the stream.)
Back to the fat fisherman in the Gunsight (who happens to be a petite woman in the gunsight, and two athletic fisherman)...
So, after ascending the Gunsight, fishing all day, re-fueling, the fat old fisherman then descends the Gunsight and gets back to the Valley Floor happy as can be.
So, just because someone isn't a "climber" doesn't mean they aren't fit and doesn't mean they don't love and respect Yosemite as much as the rock jocks. As I said, it could have been anyone. I just hope it doesn't happen again and it can get cleaned up properly.
Note: I'm not offended by the fat fisherman comment, just having a little fun and trying to educate those who really have that stereotype. PS, fishing s**cks, don't take it up.
Dirt: I'm a little skeptical about how environmentally safe this product is. To some standards Round Up is safe. I'll have to check out the product closely.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:13am PT
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"Why am I painting orange dots in that cartoon, Ouch ? Hahaha "
Werner, I guess to keep Karl on the right track. He wanders off route and you're in for a rescue. Looks like your aim might be kinda bad.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 13, 2006 - 08:59am PT
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telemama, the main ingredients in Removall are glycerine and water, or so I was told. It washes off with water. Rewmovall has no methylene chlorode in it like most strippers (never use a methylene cholride stripper on rock, it dissolves the paint, makes a HUGE mess, and will fvck you up bad if you get it on you, breathe the fumes, or get some in your eye)
Removall 300 series claims you can get it on your hands and it is OK, Since I know a bunch of people who have done this, I sort of agree. You still want to wash it off, but it is NOT like The meth cloride at all, which I used on wood once upon a time.
Removall workes buy getting under the paint's binder and lifting the paint off the rock.
I still recommend using paper towels to catch the runnoff, cause otheriwse little bits of orange paint and the removall goop will be all over the place in a situation like gunsight.
Removall did not seem to hurt the plants around the test area, which was at a boudler field and close to the ground. We also used removal 320 extensivley at Sand Rock Alabama about three years ago, but the vandals appreciated the fresh canvas and quickly repainted.
Those test patch pics are 4 years old, and the rock is sandstone. there is no damage to the rock at all.
check out the Napier site link I gave, (the one that says biowash in its url) that is to company that makes removall from what I can tell.
I tried a lot of products before settling on Removall, but there are some new ones now that deserve a shot, like that Elephant Snot stuff for instance, if it turns out to be safe.
By the way, using the term witch hunt to decribe the way people feel about the vanadalism of Gunsight is a bit snide. Make no mistake, painting on the rocks like that has no defense, and the vandals should be punished as severely as possible. The incredible hubris and even narcissism it takes to do such a thing as paint the rocks is deplorable and disgusting, and a lot worse.
Maybe after you've spent some time cleaning up afer such people you will feel less kindly toward them.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:01pm PT
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"I'm not sure why fishing was brought up in the first place. I guess it was part of the witch hunt that is beginning to find the perpetrator. It could have been anyone."
I wasn't trying to say that a fisherman painted the dots...just that other people really do use the gully so it wasn't necessarily a climber. Really my goal in bringing up fishing was to say that anyone could have done it...not necessarily the Euros, or climbers, or fisherman, or whoever.
But fwiw, it IS easier to go fishing when you're fat and old than it is to climb a 5th class route that gets you to the top of the gunsight. Largo was asking who would need the bights on a fixed rope to get down the gunsight...and the goal of my response was to suggest that someone who wasn't in prime climbing shape might find it very useful. I didn't mean to imply that I thought all people who fish (especially those intrepid enough to head up the Gunsight to do it) are old and fat.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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He asked: "Anyone know how run out Mother Earth really is? What grade runouts w/ potential injury?"
This is another question beyond that of the spray paint but I'll say this: Mother Earth is pretty run out, but not horrifically so if you're tight climbing up to about 5.10A with little pro and 5.9 with no pro. The nailing above the big ledge has a touch of A4 but is mainly A2. I think pitch 8 has a short stretch of 5.12 by a bolt, and other places on the route have some 5.11, usually pretty well protected.
That route was put up (with Ron Kauk and Mark Chapman) in 1976 so the bolts--old 1/4 inch buttonheads--would need to be replaced. We all thought it was one of the best walls we'd ever done. Middle is really big right there.
JL
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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Mellisa,
A witch hunt is no time for rational thought. The only responsible way to handle this is to round up all fisherman and euros in the park and cane them severely.
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telemama
Trad climber
midpines
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Sep 13, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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Dirt,
Thanks for answering my question and doubts about the safety of the product. from what you said, it sounds like the perfect product for the job. I do hope it gets cleaned up and think I may be able to help.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 06:33pm PT
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Thanks for beta on Mother Earth - esp. that it needs a rebolting. Been up a couple routes on North Face Apron. Strange that nobody seems to climb there anymore when stuff like Stoner's still gets lots of traffic. North Face of Middle stays in the shade almost all day - great if you want to climb in Valley mid-summer.
I'll be sure to bring a wire brush if I'm ever up there.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 13, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Telemama, get in touch with Chicken Skinner, AKA Ken Yager. He's planning the removal, and doing testing and preparation now.
IT will take a few people who are willing to spend a good while doing this, so it's great you are volunteering.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 13, 2006 - 07:00pm PT
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Today I called Napier, the company that makes the removall products, and set up a talk wiht them about specific issues for graffiti removal on rock.
I also found that there is a new removall, removall 400 in a spray can, that might be the ticket for gunsight.
BUt I'll know more tomorrow. Napier has several other new product I want to find out about.
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Sep 13, 2006 - 07:48pm PT
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I need orange dots to lead me to the bar.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:30am PT
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Camnotclimb,
Try closing one eye.
Ken
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:33pm PT
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Werner did it, he just won't admit it.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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Hahaha, I did it?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Hahahaha! I always knew you were a practical joker.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:57pm PT
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Saffron fatty, those ropes are saffron.
Why do you think they call him the Dali Werner?
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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I've removed small paint markings on rocks with small propane torches and a brush and putty knife.. Works great on oil paint.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:21am PT
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I believe this is how Dirt would tell us not to clean paint. Mea culpa. The horror!
From the Smoke Bluffs, about 15 years ago. There was a lot of paint there - popular teen party spot. And we didn't know better. Luckily, it rains a lot at Squamish, the moss and such grow quickly, and it only took a few years for the brilliant white cleaned areas to blend in. They didn't seem to be otherwise affected.
This may not work at the Gunsight anyway. Requires a compressor.
Anders
ps Possibly one of climbing tabloids would buy this - "Space Aliens Invade Smoke Bluffs" or some such.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:39am PT
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sand blasting is extremely bad for sandstone and pretty bad for every sort of rock.
You don't want to errode or polish or etch the rock, which is what blasting will do.
A putty knife and a blow torch, that's a new one. sounds like a disaster in the making.
works on wood, if you are really careful, but wood is not rock.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Sep 15, 2006 - 11:51am PT
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Just an update.
As per Dirtineye's reccomendation I contacted Napier products and they are donating their product for the Gunsight. The product is eco-friendly. I have also lined up 2 water sprayers with backpacks. I will practice on some smaller rocks at home that I have spray painted and perfect the technique. We will take on this project at the Yosemite Facelift.
If anyone has had experience with graffitti removal and would like to take on this project you can email me.
Thanks,
Ken
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 15, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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WOO-HOO!!!
Go KEN!
And THANKS Napier!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 20, 2006 - 10:16am PT
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More than just a slightly interested bump.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 20, 2006 - 02:15pm PT
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Positively chemoed out irrascible bump
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sketchy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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Sep 20, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Thats good news for the removal. Any luck with the witch hunt?
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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My buddy Bob decided that it was a climbers job to clean up the Gunsight. Not wanting him to go without a belay his wife Dawn and I went along. We were joined by Keith from YOSAR. Sure enough, at the first steep section, there were the dayglo pink dots. We used Ken and Dirt's magic cleaner. We tried spraying it on, leaving it for a while, and blasting it with water. Didn't work. In the end we used the spray and a wire brush with plenty of rinsing with water. Got them all. The cleaned areas do not stand out at all. Since we had only one wire brush we had time to climb around and check out the Gunsight and to BS and tell stories. A casual and fun day.
The Gunsight doesn't quite have the Tolkienesque quality of the Middle/Higher Cathedral gully but it is a cool place and climb. I think the dots were put there by canyoneering types who thought it would be helpful. I've read a Gunsight climb description on one of the canyoneering websites and it fits that vibe. I took some pictures which I'll try to post later.
See ya on the rock.
Zander
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks for the effort! A great help with the facelift. It would be fair if every kilogram of water, cleaner, brushes etc you carried up counted in the total "booty" for the facelift. The paint dots you "collected" couldn't have weighed much, but overall the effort was substantial.
It may help if somehow the individuals/community that painted the dots is informed of why they were removed. A bit of education. Although it may be hard to figure out who. Perhaps a discreet post to the caver's website you mention?
Anders
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Hip hip hooray,
Lobo's learned what to spray.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Yes, Thanks and Appreciation for hard word that benefits us all.
Peace
Karl
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Oct 20, 2006 - 02:17pm PT
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Way to go Zander and Bob. Thanks a lot.
sm
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 17, 2006 - 09:19am PT
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OK a few things about the effort.
It's great you got the paint off completely. Getting to the paint while it is fresh and the binder is intact gives you a big advantage over say, having to remove old paint or paint that other methods have been tried on.
First, what was the temp when you say the method, which we know to work, failed? Temps above 70 are needed for Removall to work faster and better.
Second, you say you left it on a while. How long is that? Removall often takes hours to work correctly. On new paint it might take as little as one hour, but still an hour is a long time, longer than a while to most people.
Longer is better, and keeping the removal wet (with re-applications) is also important. This helps avoid shadowing, which is when the binder is gone but pigment is left down in the rock, typically forced into the pores by bad removal technique.
There is no quick and easy way to take graffiti off rock and leave the rock unharmed, that's why it is such a pain to do it right.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 10:06am PT
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Thanks for the levity, Ouch!
I have to deal with spray-painted graffiti occasionally, and the one item that works wonders is
COLD FORMULA EASY OFF OVEN CLEANER. The kind that doesn't require heating the oven to work. Stuff is wonderful and fast.
It may not be as "environmentally friendly" from a chemical standpoint as this other product discussed here. But maybe the harm is offset by the speed with which removal is accomplished, meaning less people/gear/rinse water needed.
We need a seperate thread about the shocking and amusing ways the "Euro's" peculiar relationship to mother nature manifests itself (i.e. painted markings, ten-foot high cairns on obvious trails, crapping on the trail then "covering" sh*t with a rock, etc.).
Another idea: let's sabotage the Gunsight painters! We'll re-direct the painted spots so they lead right over a steep drop, maybe one with a seasonal waterfall! Ha Ha Ha....that will teach them. Oh, wait - that IS already where the dots lead. Never mind.
Maybe re-paint the dots so they go straight up one wall of the gunsight? that will confuse the buggers....
Bill (saddened that someone has added aid gear to his first descent of the Gunsight)
EDIT - Zander, Bob and Dawn - you all rock, HARD! If you're ever feeling down, look in the mirror and remind yourself of the public service you jus performed.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 11:00am PT
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I missed this. Zander, that's great work you guys did in scrubbing off that paint. Middle C. is like a shrine to us who squandered our youth on the thing. Thanks a lot.
JL
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Nov 17, 2006 - 11:09am PT
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They did a great job and Keith Lober helped them. Here is what it looked like. They removed about twenty of them.
The next day Dawn went and took care of some graffitti in the Lower Yosemite Falls Amphitheater.
Ken
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 17, 2006 - 11:28am PT
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Wild bill,
OK, haha very funny.
Now, imagine getting that stuff in your eye.
Laugh if you want, but this is a big problem in any paint removal situation. The caustic strippers are dangerous even in a controlled environment, and dealing with a spill on your skin or in your eye without a good supply of water is asking for big trouble.
If you've done much work with paint strippers, you've probably gone running to the sink or hose when you get that stuff on your face or any skin, cause you literally know right away it is a bad thing. It will begin to burn you as soon as it makes contact.
That's one reason Rmoval products are good-- even though it is not a wonderful thing to get it on you, when you do, you have time to act and the stuff is not going to be anything like the caustic strippers. We had Removal all over us a few years ago, painting it on graffiti at Sand Rock Al for hours, and while you do notice some effects, and you do want to get it off, it's MUCH safer that the bad stuff. Removal is not a caustic.
Typically, people want to use the tools at hand. they don't want to make the effort to learn anything new, or do research to find the proper way, they just use a wire brush or methylene cholride strippers and make a huge disaster, with products that can cause real harm to the workers as well as the rocks and surrounding plants. This is an uphill fight to get everyone to do the right thing, how about helping?
Please don't encourage people to do stupid things when dealing with graffiti.
There really is no easy, fast way to take off graffiti, other than prevention.
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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Damn Dirt!
You caught us. We only kept the dots wet for 15 minutes, not the one hour you recommend. Fortunately, the granite up there is so hard and beaten by the weather we were able to scrub with the wire brush without doing any damage. We'll be good next time, I promise.
Dirt, we still gotta date with Mount Goode when you are ready. A few more lines have been taken but there are plenty left.
Zander
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Nov 18, 2006 - 09:18am PT
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Dirt:
Not trying to be funny, so please don't think I'm minimizing your efforts to contribute to a solution. Hats off to you for your guidance and for keeping this thread focused on fixing things.
And yes, EASY OFF COLD FORMULA really works on spray paint. Try it sometime, if you have a less environmentally sensitive problem. Like the stop sign in front of my house, for instance. Works great on that.
--Bill
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 18, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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ZANDER!
Mount goodies is on the list, things are beginning to look up, and I am determined to get out there when the chemo is done and I can get in a little bit o shape.
Thanks for your great offer!
About the time thing, can't blame you for that. IT is tedious stuff. I'd say the fact that the paint was fresh, and probably not one of those flat paints helped you out, as well as the nature of the rock.
IF you attack any old paint or flat paint, do it in warm weather and be prepared to wait, wait, wait, and reapply. And wait some more, heh. With more porous rock, the danger is deep shadowing of the now binderless pigment. It can still be gotten out, mostly, but only with great difficulty and lots of time.
Wild BIll, with a name like Wild Bill, I sort of expect you use Easy Off as bug repellant, or rellish on your raw meat, haha.
Good to know it works on spray painted street signs.
Keep up the good work.
And I was sort of trying to work in my favorite movie line somehow, and that would be, "NO way kid, you'll shoot your eye out"
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Mimi
climber
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Another classic conversation about graffiti on the stone and its removal.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 19, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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"Bottom line is if people demand more climbing sh#t, they'll bump it."
bump
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| Messages 1 - 95 of total 95 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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the spray paint had to be marking the way down, since the dots got closer as they "led the way" to anchor stations.
Let us know!