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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 15, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
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On a drive to a crag, a friend asked me to define a FFA. I told him that usually it means to free climb some route that has been aided in the past. The leader must climb without falls and 'sent' the pitch(es). He asked me, "but what if the first ascent party climbed the route free, but the leader hung on a hook to place a bolt, or on a piece to clean a crack ahead, is that considered an aid climb? Another party can actually claim a FFA in this case? Cuz I do not think the line needs a FFA if a leader used a hang on one of the ten pitches to clean a section but otherwise climbed it free?" Couldn't really disagree with that. But what does the internet say?
So I was brainstorming and a few questions came up...
If you are doing a first ascent, would you give it a technical and an aid rating if you climb up, use a hook to drill a bolt, but climb to and past that bolt free? What if you hung on the bolt to get the pump out of your calves after drilling, but otherwise climbed to and past it free? When would you give a free vs free and aid rating? Are there any exceptions?
PS: These questions are silly but would love to hear if opinions on this topic are different...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
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often working a route (like bolting from hooks) and all the shenanigans that go into it are "forgiven" when the team does the route ground up cleanly...
in some ways, the team forgoes the credit for FA on aid having done all the moves free on the run through after everything is in place (not best style, but fun anyway!).
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
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If I even say anything about a first ascent or descent..
I simply describe it as accurately as possible.
Example .. 3 pitches p1 4th class.. p2 4th class pulled on gear.. 3rd pitch 5.3d stepped on pin.
In this case it would simply be a FA
Next person to come along might rate it... FFA 4th class .. or "scramble up some crap".. couldn't find the route. Did find an old pin though.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Sep 16, 2014 - 12:11am PT
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IMO - if I hang to drill, I have to lower to the last no-hands rest then climb from there, to call it free.
DMT
Gunna agree with DMT on this one. As long as you return to a no hand's rest or the ground and redo a section that has aid on it for whatever reason, it's an FA. I'd be surprised if someone climbs a route with a hang and calls it an FA without giving it an A0, A1, rating to explain that,
but ethics are grey and change over time for someone. I can see a person justifying a million things to themselves based upon past experience, telling themselves, "I've lowered before, this section is only 5.whatever, I know I can do it, no need to lower, waste of time, need to get going, blah blah blah and then call it good.
It's all in the head of the leader and follower to decide how close "truth" is to "fact" when reporting an FA. The earlier yo are in your FA career, the more your reports seems to be about fact whereas the later you are in your career, the more you care about truth.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 16, 2014 - 12:16am PT
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I have to lower to the last no-hands rest then climb from there
What if the route is 3 overhanging pitches?
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aguacaliente
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:10am PT
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Strictly speaking, if you have to pay an entry fee to get into the park it is not a free ascent.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:47am PT
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If i do all kinds of shenanigans to get it cleaned and get the bolts in it is an FA. I almost always try to come back the next weekend and free it. I think on a verry big route with only a few hangs to drill clean or trundel there might be a bit more wiggle room for simply calling it an FA and being done with it. but i have never done a really big fa. 3 pitches is my longest and that is still just cragging.
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Sep 16, 2014 - 05:44am PT
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It's not free until someone has climbed it bottom to top without hanging - at all, in my book. Hanging includes hanging belays.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 16, 2014 - 07:04am PT
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Sport Climbing and Aid Climbing are basically the same thing.
If an aid climb was changed to a sport climb then there is still no FFA.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 16, 2014 - 07:16am PT
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FFA is the first free ascent, without aid.
Install permanent manufactured belay ledges on all overhanging multi-pitch free routes, hanging belays are stupid anyways.
The difference between doing a repeat ascent of a route verses the first ascent, is like buying a movie ticket or actually being Robert De Niro.
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:01am PT
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Sport Climbing and Aid Climbing are basically the same thing.
If an aid climb was changed to a sport climb then there is still no FFA.
Translation: I am sofa king we todd it.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:07am PT
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These questions are silly
Yes
This what happens to people who take this sh!t way too serious .....
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Barbarian
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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Climb a route from the ground up without pulling or hanging on any gear in any manner...the ascent was free.
Does it matter? Only for those who values lists and records more than the experience of the climb itself.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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"If an aid climb was changed to a sport climb then there is still no FFA."...
WTF???
Shorter, climbs
Free is pretty simple, at least in my little mind.
No hanging on gear...
Hooking to drill, hanging on gear to place pro or to clean, etc.
if you do any of this stuff, you did a FA.
then you still need to climb it free.
Extra long climbs.... well I'll go with DMT
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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Hahahaha ^^^^
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:27am PT
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When I read the OP, the thought immediately came to mind, who got the FFA of the BY? Did Bachar come back and lead it without hanging (OK, showing my history knowledge)? I imagine that Bachar wouldn't consider it a free route until he got it without hangs.
BITD, when I was hanging off hooks and drilling, we didn't consider the pitch free until it was lead from the belay--as a party coming up to do the route would do it. I understand Dingus' model of lowering to the last rest, and if it's an obvious ledge that works too, I suppose.
I remember going up on the West Face of the Sentinel, thinking it had an FFA. Ha! That was a pretty fun, and funny, ascent.
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rincon
Trad climber
Coarsegold
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Sep 16, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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"but what if the first ascent party climbed the route free, but the leader hung on a hook to place a bolt, or on a piece to clean a crack ahead, is that considered an aid climb? Another party can actually claim a FFA in this case? Cuz I do not think the line needs a FFA if a leader used a hang on one of the ten pitches to clean a section but otherwise climbed it free?" Couldn't really disagree with that. But what does the internet say?
The other party can claim anything they want, but it doesn't make it true!
On a ten pitch route, if you hung on gear to place a bolt or whatever during the FA, but lowered and climbed it clean, or the follower climbed it clean, then it has been climbed free. Another party can come along and do the first redpoint, or all clean ascent, but you already climbed everything free. On the FFA of The Salathe Wall, Skinner and Piana hangdogged a lot, but still claimed the FFA, because at least one of them lead every pitch all free.
On short routes, after you finish doing all the hooking and hangdogging, you gotta pull the rope and lead it clean. Or just refer to what Guy wrote, I learned everything from him :)
Word.
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Sep 16, 2014 - 09:47am PT
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When I read the OP, the thought immediately came to mind, who got the FFA of the BY? Did Bachar come back and lead it without hanging (OK, showing my history knowledge)? I imagine that Bachar wouldn't consider it a free route until he got it without hangs.
For the bolts placed from hooks, he lowered to the belay and pulled the rope. The first two pitches took a day of work each. He did a continuous no falls ascent on the third day.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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So if leader yanked on pieces but follower climbed the pitch free it still would be 5.8 (or whatever hardest free moves that the leader made), C1 correct?
I lean towards DMT's definition about routes that the FA party does not care too much about and Rincon/Hocking's definition for routes that the FA party actually cares about and wants to 'send.' I think if you are climbing a 2500 ft bigwall in a remote range you do not have to give it a A0 rating if you hung on a hook on a few pitches to drill a bolt, than were lowered to a stance and still climbed through that section free. You can say that in your report to keep it honest, but you can still give it a VI 5.11b or whatever.
Werner, seems like you care enough to log onto this site and post close to 25,000 times, and live in Yosemite for majority of your life? I don't deny that I care about climbing, it is something I have a lot of passion for. I don't think I will fool anyone if I act like I don't give a sh#t about it. Since I climbed for a fraction of the time that you have, I met a small fraction of climbers out there. At times I like to ask questions online and see what this 'community' has to say - topics that do not involve Obama, ISIS and Republicans can be fun to look at for a change. Since climbing is so personal, it is quite interesting how other folks see things. There is no right or wrong, there are personal preferences, which change from route to route and pitch to pitch at times. Climbing is anarchy homez, but still, let's talk some climbing..
God of sweet crimp bless you all! :)
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 10:10am PT
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You asked for an opinion on this forum.
Mine was "I don't give a sh!t".
I'm a nobody like everyone else.
How much one climbs nor where they live does not automatically mean their consciousness becomes a climbing zombie ......
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