A Revolution in Plate Tectonics?

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Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
Couldn't the slope have been greater during eruption? Could the flows simply have been pyroclastics? How about an earth-analog (in reverse): basin and range extensional regime. Hundreds of kilometers of extension along <%1 fault planes....or the Canadian Rockies: mountain building on <%1 gradient faults.

You're reaching, dude. Doesn't Occam's Razor kick in at some point?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
Anyway ... I've been arguing for a contrarian position that disagrees with most Venusian scientists. Being properly skeptical you non-Venusians are wondering, What are the counterarguments to these views?

A good place to find out is this volume edited by Donna Jurdy and Gillian Foulger, a plumologist and non-plumologist respectively, for the Geological Society of America:

Foulger, G.R. and D.M. Jurdy. 2007. Plates, Plumes and Planetary Processes. Geological Society of America Special Paper 430.

Unfortunately the book itself is paywalled, but you can see from the table of contents that it contains two original papers by leading proponents of both the young-surface and old-surface perspectives on Venus. Non-paywalled versions of those two papers exist, and what makes them even better is these each include commentary by other scientists who disagree with or support what the authors just said. That gives non-Venusian spectators a chance to judge for themselves with the arguments lined up strength to strength.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
First of these two papers is by Donna M. Jurdy and Paul R. Stoddard
"The coronae of Venus: Impact, plume, or other origin?"
Geological Society of America Special Papers, 2007, 430, p. 859-878, doi:10.1130/2007.2430(40)
Abstract
The surface of Venus hosts hundreds of circular to elongate features, ranging from 60 to 2600 km, and averaging somewhat over 200 km, in diameter. These enigmatic structures have been termed “coronae” and attributed to either tectonovolcanic or impact-related mechanisms. A quantitative analysis of symmetry and topography is applied to coronae and similarly sized craters to evaluate the hypothesized impact origin of these features. Based on the morphology and global distribution of coronae, as well as crater density within and near coronae, we reject the impact origin for most coronae. The high level of modification of craters within coronae supports their tectonic nature. The relatively young Beta-Atla-Themis region has a high coronal concentration, and within this region individual coronae are closely associated with the chas-mata system. Models for coronae as diapirs show evolution through a sequence of stages, starting with uplift, followed by volcanism and development of annuli, and ending with collapse. With the assumption of this model, a classification of coronae is developed based merely on their interior topography. This classification yields corona types corresponding to stages that have a systematic variation of characteristics. We find that younger coronae tend toward being larger, more eccentric, and flatter than older ones, and generally occur at higher geoid and topography levels.

An authors' draft of the Jurdy & Stoddard paper is here, followed by substantial comments written by Hamilton, Vita-Finzi, Howarth, Stofan, Hamilton again, and finally a rejoinder by Jurdy & Stoddard.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
The second of these two Venus papers, which I've quoted extensively above, is by Warren B. Hamilton
"An alternative Venus"
Geological Society of America Special Papers, 2007, 430, p. 879-911, doi:10.1130/2007.2430(41)
Abstract
Conventional interpretations assign Venus a volcanotectonic surface, younger than 1 Ga, pocked only by 1000 small impact craters. These craters, however, are superimposed on a landscape widely saturated with thousands of older, and variably modified, small to giant circular structures, which typically are rimmed depressions with the morphology expected for impact origins. Conventional analyses assign to a fraction of the most distinct old structures origins by plumes, diapirs, and other endogenic processes, and ignore the rest. The old structures have no analogues, in their venusian consensus endogenic terms, on Earth or elsewhere in the solar system, and are here argued to be of impact origin instead. The 1000 undisputed young “pristine” craters (a misnomer, for more than half of them are substantially modified) share with many of the old structures impact-diagnostic circular rims that enclose basins and that are surrounded by radial aprons of debris-flow ejecta, but conventional analyses explain the impact-compatible morphology of the old structures as coincidental products of endogenic uplifts complicated by magmatism. A continuum of increasing degradation, burial, and superposition connects the younger and truly pristine young impact structures with the most modified of the ancient structures. Younger craters of the ancient family are superimposed on older ones in impact-definitive cookie-cutter bites and are not deflected as required by endogenic conjectures. Four of the best-preserved of the pre-“pristine” circular structures are huge, with rimcrests 800–2000 km in diameter, and if indeed of impact origin, must have formed, by analogy with lunar dating, no later than 3.8 Ga. Much of the venusian plains is seen in topography to be saturated with overlapping 100–600 km circular structures, almost all of which are disregarded in conventional accounts. Several dozen larger ancient plains basins reach 2500 km in diameter, are themselves saturated with midsize impact structures, and may date back even to 4.4 Ga. Giant viscously spread “tessera plateaus” of impact melt also reach 2500 km in diameter; the youngest are little modified and are comparable in age, as calibrated by superimposed “pristine” impact structures, to the least modified of the giant impact basins, but the oldest are greatly modified and bombarded. The broad, low “volcanoes” of Venus formed within some of the larger of the ancient rimmed structures, resemble no modern volcanic complexes on Earth, and may be products of the collapse and spread of impact-fluidized central uplifts. Venusian plains are saturated with impact structures formed as transient-ocean sediments were deposited. The variable burial of, and compaction into, old craters by plains fill is incompatible with the popular contrary inference of flood basalt plains. Early “pristine” craters were formed in water-saturated sediments, subsequent greenhouse desiccation of which produced regional cracking and wrinkling of the plains and superabundant mud volcanoes (“shields”). The minimal internal planetary mobility indicated by this analysis is compatible with geophysical evidence. The history of the surface of Venus resembles that of Mars, not Earth.

An author's draft of the Hamilton paper is here, followed by substantial comments written by McCall, Hamilton, Smrekar & Stofan, and a rejoinder by Hamilton.

I'll pull out a few things I think are highlights from these exchanges, but don't take my word for it -- think skeptically, look them over and take a trip to Venus for yourself.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2014 - 06:56am PT
Skipping planets for a more visual note ... India's Mars probe Mangalyaan, accomplished with a smaller budget than Gravity, has just sent back its first pictures. These highlight the ancient cratered surface that covers much of Mars. Like the Moon and Venus, Mars lacks a significant magnetic field, which suggests it has a (relatively) cold solid core.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 12, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
http://news.sciencemag.org/earth/2014/11/dark-magma-could-explain-mystery-volcanoes

To test how magma might behave near the core, Goncharov and his colleagues squeezed a sliver of a dark, opaque glass, made from iron and silicate to mimic the composition of deep Earth magmas, between two diamonds to simulate pressures near the core. The team then shined an infrared light through the glass and measured how much light passed through. As the pressure increased, so did the amount of light the glass absorbed, and the team saw a change in the atomic structure of the glass, the researchers report online today in Nature Communications.

Goncharov says that means magmas at high pressures in the lower mantle must be sponging up heat emanating from the core. As these patches of magma around the core get hotter, they start to act as a door for heat to pass into the mantle by convection. The heated mantle rocks then move up through the planet in a massive plume until they erupt on the surface, creating large volcanoes in strange places like Hawaii, Yellowstone, Easter Island, and Mount Etna, and some of the most violent eruptions.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 13, 2014 - 09:52am PT
This is a cool thread. Can't believe that I missed it.

Plate tectonics never answered every question, but it has been very useful. If you want to hear some bullsh#t, try to find some info on "geosynclinal theory." That was the theory that was replaced by plate tectonics, and it was horribly complicated.

When I took my first stratigraphy class, the excellent professor was taking a sabbatical. So they get this old dinosaur and have him teach it. He taught us geosynclinal theory. In the mid-80's. I should have demanded my money back it was so bad.

There have always been big questions, such as intra-plate mountain ranges which were obviously compressive events. The Rockies are back thrusted to beat hell, and over a thousand miles from any plate boundary during the Laramide Orogeny. What drives these things has always been a shoe waiting to drop for who could figure it out.

I am very specialized. I work difficult stratigraphy and depositional environments. That's it.

And DMT. I am friends with John McPhee's son in law and one of his daughters. I scored two autographed copies of "Annals Of The Former World." One for me, and one for Minerals (Bryan Law).

I might be able to get you one, but McPhee is getting pretty old. Also, when he signs a book, he writes a nice paragraph to you, so you would have to let me know what your real name is...... :)

Scientific Revolutions are cool. I need to take a few days to read this stuff. Too busy to do anything but skim over it right now.

Plate tectonics is an observable phenomenon. What drives it has always been the question. I've spent my life studying late Paleozoic rocks, so regrettably have pigeon holed myself apart from a lot of geology.

I have a buddy of mine who is a structural geologist. Whenever we hang out he is always pulling out some old seismic and waving his arms about how the Wichita-Amarillo uplift has been mis-interpreted. Then sure enough, I read a paper about it last month. It is strange to have thrust faults so far from plate boundaries.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
This thread reads oddly now with all Fortmental's posts gone. What happened to him?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 14, 2014 - 08:16am PT
Dark bullsh#t...

That's obviously just journalistic hype. But it has to be coming from somewhere.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2014 - 11:22am PT
There have always been big questions, such as intra-plate mountain ranges which were obviously compressive events. The Rockies are back thrusted to beat hell, and over a thousand miles from any plate boundary during the Laramide Orogeny. What drives these things has always been a shoe waiting to drop for who could figure it out.

It's probably old hat to Base but I was intrigued by his comment to look this paper up:

Laramide Crustal Shortening
Warren Hamilton, GSA Memoirs (2003)

North America rapidly overrode buoyant oceanic lithosphere during late Late Cretaceous and early Paleogene time. The southwestern United States was retarded by drag against the overridden slab and advanced slightly more slowly than did the continental interior. This resulted in crustal shortening, in a broad zone between the continental subplates, that produced the variably overthrust Laramide basement uplifts of the Rocky Mountain region. The thrust faults flatten downward into the middle crust and are reflective in seismic profiles, likely because diverse crystalline rocks have been transposed along them by ductile shear and flattening.

The increase northward and northwestward, from New Mexico to Wyoming, of crustal shortening across the Laramide belt, and the fanning pattern of northwest-broadening arcs defined by the compressive structures throughout the Rocky Mountain region, indicate that the Colorado Plateau region rotated clockwise, as though about an Euler pole in or near central New Mexico, by perhaps 4° relative to the continental interior. This rotation, combined with the subsequent clockwise relative rotation of the plateau by about 3° about an Euler pole in central Colorado as the Rio Grande rift opened in middle Tertiary time, can be seen in paleomagnetic data.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 10:05am PT
In the original post for this thread, I wrote

A study just published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences aims to overthrow scientific orthodoxy in a field that I grew up around, and still sometimes follow -- plate tectonics. My sympathies are with the rebels.

That PNAS study, aiming to overthrow the orthdoxy of plate tectonics, was by Don Anderson who passed away earlier this month.

In the last time slots on the last day of the fall AGU meetings were two sessions on "Theory of Earth," named and organized in Don's honor. The aim of these sessions too was to advance some unorthodox and challenging perspectives on plate tectonics. For example, Anne Hofmeister presented "An alternative view of Earth's beginnings" to explain (as have other papers in this thread) why Earth's internal heat now is primarily from radioactive decay, and that early-Earth fractionation concentrated that in the mantle; if it had not then the Earth would be astronomically hot. Models and cartoons upthread that show heat rising from the deep mantle contradict thermodynamics.

Michele Lustrino gave another good talk, about the causes of igneous activity in the Mediterranean area. He found the evidence contradicts plume hypotheses (including Mt Etna, sometimes cited as a paradigm) on every point; for example, "the supposed deep mantle plume isotopic signature does not exist." The evidence points instead to relatively shallow and local sources for Mediterranean volcanics.

Despite its Friday evening slot on the meetings' last day, these sessions drew and held a large audience. The presider, Gillian Foulger (often quoted upthread) commented she had never seen a Friday evening session do that before.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Wandering the AGU poster hall I looked to see what's new in planetary geology as well. Venus, long overdue for its revolution, won't get one soon with no satellites sending back new data. Mercury is a hot spot for science due to Messenger, so there were many posters about that -- often, trying to figure out the enigmatic magnetic field. Mars of course gets the biggest attention, and methane spikes that were the headline of these AGU meetings. There will be new things ahead there soon as well, maybe even a proposed revolution.

The word tectonics comes up in a very different context regarding the ice moons, where frozen surfaces move around above apparently liquid water seas.

A new concept for me -- the Seven Ocean Worlds:
Earth
Ceres
Callisto
Ganymede
Europa
Enceladus
Titan

Folks are making their pitch for these to be a new focus of exploration, competing with other places (namely Mars, and exoplanet spectroscopy) for limited NASA resources. It's claimed the ocean worlds are the most likely places in the solar system to find life. And sampling the water from at least one of them might be easier than I thought: Enceladus has more than 100 active ice volcanoes spraying it into space, where an orbiter could capture and taste water from a truly alien sea.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Still not convinced that mantle plumes do not exist on earth.

I don't think that mantle plumes are stationary, but they flicker like a burning candle in a light breeze. Generally fixed in locations with the surface manifestation flickering about to and fro.

I study volcanoes from the inside and have traveled all over the world studying volcanoes and hot spots - All over the USA, Australia, Hawaii, Iceland, the Middle East, Galapagos, Asia. I've rappelled into the deep shafts of volcanic throats and explored the bowels of volcanic flows.

Mantle plumes on earth are still the best explanation.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Take a listen to this cracking ice in this video:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Many years ago I was in an active volcanic region where we had 20-30 earthquakes overight. I put my ear to the ground and listened to the sound of earthquakes.

It sounded just like the sound of cracking ice on a lake. Identical in sound.

You will never convince me that plate techtonics is not correct.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2014 - 11:30am PT
Also, plate techtonics explains the many Ice Ages that have occurred on the earth, including the current Ice Age that we are experiencing now.

How does this alternate theory explain Ice Ages?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 11:33am PT
You will never convince me that plate techtonics is not correct.

I don't know anyone who thinks that! But there are a number of plate tectonics experts who don't think that mantle plumes exist. Upthread I noted why the Emperor/Hawaii cartoon can't be right. At the AGU we heard more about why Mt Etna and the Mediterranean don't fit, nor does Yellowstone. But hey, happy to talk about this.

Gillian Foulger, who co-presided at the final AGU sessions I mentioned, has written that the plume hypothesis has become unfalsifiable -- there are exceptions invented for every test it fails.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
Also, plate techtonics explains the many Ice Ages that have occurred on the earth, including the current Ice Age that we are experiencing now.
How does this alternate theory explain Ice Ages?

Position of continents and pathways for ocean circulation undoubtedly play a role in the very long term pattern of ice ages, at scales of tens to hundreds of millions of years. Recent ice ages and glacial/interglacial cycles, at tens to hundreds of thousands of years, are much too fast for tectonics to be in control. The most common explanations involve orbital variations (Milankovitch cycles) complicated by ocean/atmosphere feedbacks.

There's always some discussion at AGU on the details, these are clearly not settled. One issue I heard about last week was exactly how CO2 rises and falls.
Camster (Rhymes with Hamster)

Social climber
CO
Dec 22, 2014 - 09:04pm PT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wegener


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Warren_Carey

My father was one of Sam's geology students in Tasmania in the 1950s.


Camster (Rhymes with Hamster)

Social climber
CO
Dec 23, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/13965/1/1955_Carey_Orocline_Concept_Geotectonics_Pt1.pdf
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
What's the date of that oroclines paper, Cam?

I've heard that in the early years of continental drift, southern-hemisphere geologists were among the first on board, because their rocks cried out mobilism. Continent-bound folks in Texas or Russia could take a more stabilist view.
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