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| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
Pete Dronkers
Trad climber
Dolores, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 26, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
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BLM is accepting public comment on this issue. I don't want to see these arches shut down to swings or any other type of roped enjoyment:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865609559/BLM-weighs-rope-ban-at-Corona-Arch-Gemini-Bridges.html
If you feel the same way, please drop BLM a note at the address or email address provided in the article. This could set a very bad precedent in terms of similar things in other places, maybe even slacklining.
It's terrible that people have died and been injured there, but I don't see it as any different from climbing accidents in places where they occur relatively frequently. Anyway, I'm going log a comment to preserve public access to public lands and recreation, but will be diplomatic about it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
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This is an interesting situation. I am certainly not in the camp that everything goes on public lands and I don't believe that banning rope swings in sensitive areas leads to the slippery slope of climbing restrictions.
Rock climbing is a skill activity with a long history on public lands. Rope swinging would seem to attract thrill seekers not needing to develop any expertise. I suspect that rope swinging can attract a rowdy crowd that might not mix well with other people visiting these arches.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
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I do not like to pass judgment on other peoples recreation. However I question the appropriateness of this activity. There is more impact beyond the obvious cratering of the occasional idiot. It is hard to enjoy the quiet beauty of a natural desert arch with 20 screaming teenagers swinging on a rope. If at all possible, a good wilderness visitor should be neither seen nor heard. The regs should promote that goal.
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thebravecowboy
climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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I have avoided that place like the plague since the swinging really took off, but it seems to me that other user groups in the same part of Utah place greater burdens on the authorities as far as management and rescue go, and certainly inflict greater impacts on finite resources. I suppose historic precedent goes a long way to preserving a (hu)man's right to leave rubbery skidmarks and new sandy tracks deep in the cryptogam though.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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I haven't been to these arches so I don't know the exact situation. But this sounds somewhat like the BASE jumping ban in Yosemite and elsewhere. Thousands of other visitors are impacted by the few engaged in these activities. I hate to see something that people enjoy get banned but there is the experience of everyone else to consider. I think the best solution is to share the resource and for example allow rope jumping 1 or 2 days a week, but the public lands agencies don't have the best track record in implementing these kinds of fair and common sense solutions.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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Hey Pete! Sup Bud
I simply do not have enough information to make an informed opinion.
I do not know these arches or the area. I do not know what impact this activity has on the area or the people in it.
My default position on almost everything is to allow it until it becomes very very clearly a severe detriment to other people. More than an occasional nuisance to be sure. I'm very much for freedom. But I can see how these activities might have a very negative impact on other visitors. I just don't know if it actually does.
One thing I can say is that the risk/death issue is a non issue to me. I'm a climber I have no room to talk on that point.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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Jon Beck has spoken for me. I would go one step further and ban all sales
of Monster and Red Bull within 50 miles of any NP, NM, or wilderness area.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 26, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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it's an ugly farce that belongs in a carnival
Sounds just like rock climbing
But I do think you forgot another descriptor... fun, which applies to both.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 26, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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A common thread....fun, doesn't make it sound just like climbing to me.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 26, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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I would go one step further and ban all sales
of Monster and Red Bull within 50 miles of any NP, NM, or wilderness area.
You forgot to include Go-Pros
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Aug 26, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
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Every time, except once, I've hiked out to Corona Arch there have been swingers (on top of the arch). There certainly was a lot of yelping and hollering, and casual hikers did seem to avoid walking near the arch for fear of getting hit. Most on lookers seemed to enjoy watching the shenanigans. I saw some rigs that looked solid, others sketchy.
The one time there weren't swingers I was able to go up to the top of the arch. There was pretty significant impact of the rigging on the rock.
Having said all that, I'm not sure how I feel. I was discouraged at the impact on the rock. I enjoyed being able to scramble up to the top of the arch which I couldn't do the other times.
I can't imagine how horrific it must be to be a witness to an accident. It is an area that has many family groups out there.
So, I just don't know...
Susan
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 26, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
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There are plenty of people who see climbers as an eyesore and think its crazy. People in glass houses and all.
What's the deal again with the lower Yosemite falls amphitheater? Plenty of climbs down there that I've never seen anyone on. Is it a gentleman's agreement that people will only climb there when the falls aren't flowing? But that's a good example of a good compromise IMO. People's view and pictures of the falls shouldn't have climbers in them(because its a relatively contained area and climbers would be very obvious), but if the falls aren't flowing there's no real impact and people should be able to climb.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 26, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
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I went to Corona Arch in March and the place resembled a circus carnival rather than a natural rock arch. I was with people from overseas and they were clearly disappointed that they couldn't get close to the arch due to all the stuff going on. The F bombs were really bad. I little respect for the other visitors would go a long way.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 26, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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Swings are for the playground . . . "wilderness" is not a circus.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 26, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
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Rope swings on arches just need to be banned. After the idiot frat boy video with great production value on Corona Arch was put up on youtube and got millions of hits, it was inevitable that a death was coming up soon. Didn't take more than a few months before someone cratered that was inspired but had no business doing it. The stakes are too high, and perceived point of entry to the activity are too low.
Unfortunately, the BLM is grouping climbing into the ban as well so it needs to be fought.
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thebravecowboy
climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
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Aug 26, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
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Did you say fight? Perfect timing!
Could we get a little anti-guvmint standoff going over this? Maybe some thuggy yokels could stand about with spanners and .45-70 lever-guns pointed generally toward The Man? They could mumble about how it's been a tradition in their family since the last (short) reproductive cycle...Cliven Bundy did recently announce that Gawd hath told him that the Fed needs to be "disarmed."
Can we get the motorized-use crowd in on it too - get that Phil Lyman posse involved - by having some hero (bozo) jump off the arch on a Razr tied to dual 11mil lines, screeching "FREEEDDOOOM!" whilst blasting sixguns at the sky/posters of Obama?
Sigh... I guess I'll write a letter, not that I even know what the hell to do with a zoo like Corona Arch. It is quite interesting, though, that thus far Mr. Bundy appears to have gotten what he wants. I wonder what my letter will get.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 27, 2014 - 12:21am PT
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Favor the ban.
BTW, does not prohibit climbing. Free soloing is fine.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 27, 2014 - 11:57am PT
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I read through the BLM impact statement:
https://www.blm.gov/ut/enbb/files/Corona.Gemini_Temp_Restriction_EA_w_maps_-_08252014.pdf
Climbing activities and climbers are not mentioned as part of the impact to either location.
Corona Arch the problem is the rope swing. A handful of users take up the arch for hours. There have been complaints (around 40,000 visitors per year). It's a 1.5 mile hike to get there, so it must be disappointing to arrive and find a bunch of screaming rope-swingers all over the thing.
Gemini Bridges, the problem is:
1. Highline, set between the two rims, parallel to the bridges.
2. Rapelling from the bridges themselves.
3 Ziplining from rim to base.
"Visual Resources are an important part of the experience enjoyed by visitors to these areas" says the BLM. Bolts and webbing and damage to the rock has been reported to the BLM, both locations.
That's not right. These non-climbers make climbers look bad. In the short term it can be argued that the BLM is creating restrictions to climbing but in the longer term the real damage to climbing access will be from the increasing popularity of these non-climbing activities.
I'll write and I'll tell the BLM I support the ban, even though it appears that, from the map, a route of mine (not visible from Gemini Bridges, but oh well) may get closed: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/repo-man/107561633.
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Pete Dronkers
Trad climber
Dolores, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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Lots of strong opinions. Anyway, what I wrote to BLM noted that there are bad apples out there that contribute to something of a circus environment, and that there could be a sensible solution that allows all user groups to benefit. I like the idea of allowing swinging on certain days. I just think there are enough arches that are off-limits in the park, that having one that remains open does represent a good balance.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
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We have had the unfortunate situation of a swinger knocking a climber off a trail at the Monkey in Smith. I am sympathetic to those that want to play outside. I am not feeling as sympathetic to this type of activity.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 27, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
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Is it being 'guided' ie charging for swings? Is money changing hands?
Commercial rope swings have been banned at Corona Arch for 1.5 years. From the BLM:
"Very few reports of Roped Activities on the arch were received prior to the posting (February 15, 2012) of a YouTube video entitled “World’s Largest Rope Swing”. In January of 2013, the State of Utah forbade commercial outfitters from rope swinging on Corona Arch, although private use of the arch for rope swinging was not disallowed."
"Corona Arch was owned by the State of Utah until May 8, 2014.... On that date, the
Utah Recreational Land Exchange was signed, and the section containing Corona Arch was deeded to the U.S. Government."
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 27, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
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If they could manage to kill themselves quietly, I doubt anybody would have a problem.
Why the need to scream at the tops of their lungs?
We've all been witness to radical people doing extreme radical things without a word being uttered.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
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I'd vote to ban the activity.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 27, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
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good... who cars about the swings except the children?
get rid of them....
I mean, are there any groundbreaking breakthrough advancements in 'swinging' happening anywhere in the world, like in many other real activities?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 27, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
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Not since Dan Osman.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 27, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
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Just more idiots having an impact on the desert (sometimes literally).
I remember when that bozo jumped from one arch top to the other at Gemini and overshot for the monster ground waffle.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 27, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
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I notice the BLM are not trying to ban this. I wonder why:
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
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Crunch, did that guy get busted? Pretty ballsy to allow his name to be
splattered across the intardnet when he wasn't sposed to be less than 2000'
above the highest point within 5 nm.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 27, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
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Grandfathered in....and hey, flying the arch is fully Leave No Trace!
"all of Tim’s incredible low-level flights were made in the 1980s before the advent of current restrictions imposed by federal agencies"
http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueSO02/Arch91002.html
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
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"Tim also hastens to point out that the arches he’s flow through are about as wide
as the runway width at his home airport, and he says, "I haven’t missed the runway yet!""
And I bet he usually did those arches in nice still morning air, too!
Not exactly a wilderness experience but pretty cool since there was prolly
not too many people to bother back then. Thanks for the post!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 28, 2014 - 09:02am PT
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Not exactly a wilderness experience but pretty cool since there was prolly
not too many people to bother back then.
That's the whole deal, really. Back then, the Corona rope swing would have been fine because there were so few visitors.
Moab was wide open to anything, wild camping on the River Road (and anywhere else), climbing at night on the nominally illegal towers/arches, driving jeeps just anywhere you wanted. Flying planes under the arches. No one cared. There was plenty of space for all.
It's hard to grasp the scale of the increase in visitation between then and now, the sheer numbers of people. How did it happen? I guess the development of the mountain bike played a big part. With the bikes came an attitude/culture of using the desert as as a convenient setting, an apparatus to play in, to perform. Rope swings are an extension of this attitude. Not easy to balance that with the more traditional attitude of using climbing or hiking or whatever as an excuse to the real aim: interacting with and exploring the most incredible landscapes on earth, perhaps, along the way, finding something of value, some meaning.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 28, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
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"Visual Resources are an important part of the experience enjoyed by visitors to these areas" says the BLM. Bolts and webbing and damage to the rock has been reported to the BLM, both locations.
While the immediate area around Corona Arch is spectacular, the hike is a miserable experience after coming from the protection ethos of the nearby NP, certainly nothing resembling wilderness or natural beauty. My son and I were lucky enough to have the place to ourselves for our entire visit, but I can certainly see how having even a small group swinging there would completely ruin the experience for everyone else. Sorry.
TE
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Aug 28, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
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The reason climbing is banned at Twin Sisters at City of Rocks is to preserve the "historic viewshed." Whatever that means.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
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Could be.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 29, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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jstan,
it doesn't rain often, but southern Utah just got pounded.
Bet all that chalk is gone.
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A.J.
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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My reply:
To whom it may concern,
I don’t have all the information needed (such as, I don’t know how many complaints have been logged, or how often people swing from Corona arch, or if there is damage being caused to the arch.) That info could sway my vote, but right now, I’d ask to keep the arch open.
While it’s unfortunate that a young man died while swinging, from what I’ve read, he made a mistake at calculating the rope distance. We can’t protect everyone from everything. People make mistakes every day and die; whether it be from outdoor/roped activites such as climbing, or everyday activities such as driving. On the other hand, how many people have had a fun and responsible time swinging from the arch? My guess is far more than the one person who wasn’t prepared for what he was trying to do.
I have personally rappelled from Corona arch before, and enjoyed it immensely. Instead of complaints, many people came up to ask questions. If you are responsible and respectful, I think people have more of a fascination at rope sports. I think it’s good to have a few places where folks can do things that you can’t do in other places.
However, it sounds like the problem trying to be addressed is more of a “shouting and screaming” issue; i.e. people not being respectful. Unfortunately, I’ve run into folks “shouting and screaming” at many places; National Parks, forests, canyons, etc. I don’t think that issue necessarily goes hand in hand with Rope Swinging, that goes along with a particular type of person.
So, banning rope swinging won’t get rid of that issue; only banning visitation would, and that’s counter-productive as amazing places are meant to be enjoyed. It helps re-connect people back to our planet, and helps promote conservation. I can’t imagine that all people engaged in roped activities (climbers and rope swingers) are not respectful and responsible, any less than I can imagine all hikers are not respectful and responsible. Thus, I don’t think either group should be discriminated against.
Thanks for your time and efforts,
A.J.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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We can’t protect everyone from everything.
I can assure you that the NPS does not want to get into the "personal protection" business. If they did, there would have been strict rules for climbing decades ago. The proposed restrictions have more to do with ensuring a quality visit for everyone.
I have personally rappelled from Corona arch before, and enjoyed it immensely. Instead of complaints, many people came up to ask questions.
I would not consider rapping from the arch an appropriate activity, but that is just me (and I would not advocate banning rapping from an arch). However, I doubt you were screaming and yelling as you came down.
So, banning rope swinging won’t get rid of that issue (screaming)
agreed, but it will go a long way toward solving the problem
I can’t imagine that all people engaged in roped activities (climbers and rope swingers) are not respectful and responsible, any less than I can imagine all hikers are not respectful and responsible.
By its nature rock climbing traditionally attracts people with a great respect for nature. Climbing in this country has its roots in the Sierra Club. Climbers a long history of participating in community service projects in parks. Certainly the advent of bouldering as a separate activity has led to a greater degree of disrespect within the community. Where is the ethos of a rope swinger derived from? An X-Game culture, certainly not from a love of nature.
I am not judging any individual participants, just commenting on the perception the group makes as a whole. If Intersection Rock got grid bolted and had 15 climbers hangdogging on it all day screaming like rope-swingers, that would be the public's perception of climbing. I am sure there would be new restrictions as a result.
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| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
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