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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
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I would like to see a framework that gives incentives to existing energy transport vendors to transform themselves toward a fully distributed model:
1) Building owners have the legal right to own their own equipment and maintenance for solar generation. They can collect money from an energy transport provider for sending energy back into the grid.
2) Building owners can outsource the solar panel installation and ongoing maintenance to an energy provider AT NO COST. Regulated solar providers are mandated to install the service on buildings that request it. The building owners provide a property lien to the energy provider to ensure these fixed assets are clearly owned by the energy provider.
3) Energy providers maintain the distribution infrastructure, as well as storage for time-shifting (battery, water pumping between lakes at different altitudes, or whatever), and bill back the customers based on usage as they do today.
The idea is to get rid of these behemoth centralized plants that have environmental impacts, and also get rid of the transport waste inherent in shuffling around electrons for long distances. The system enables big companies to still bill us for a recurring revenue stream, which keeps corporate America happy. It is more resilient to targeted infrastructure attacks, and reduces the risk of catastrophic civilization melt-down from power-grid problems.
Problems with the approach:
1) Big companies would still perceive this as riskier... what if a future liberal government decides to grant an amnesty/ownership of the panels and infrastructure on each building to the building owner? Need to have strong protections against this. Otherwise they'll stick with a centralized model that can't be given directly to the consumer (but does face a similar risk of nationalization).
2) More expensive to operate because need more bodies in a more distributed fashion. Cheaper to have a few people watching a lot of equipment in a small area.
3) Who has to pay for roof repairs when the solar repair tech breaks a tile or makes a hole? Can't tell if it was negligence or if the roof was in terrible disrepair and in need of replacing.
4) What happens when roof needs to be replaced? What if you pay for a roof contractor to be there a certain day(s), and the solar company is backed up on their requests and doesn't remove their stuff to facilitate the roof replacement? What if the roofing guys remove the solar panels to get their job done, but they break something?
5) What about customers who mess with wires to bypass the counters/meters to get a cheaper bill? Easier to do this when the generation is on your roof vs. coming from the grid where in theory they can detect outside your house (but in practice they just read meters on customer prem to bill people today).
I think this solution is worth figuring out, as it offers the best long-term sustainability and safety. Thoughts?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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Gumby, I'd pay more attention to your stats if they were normalized in terms of birds killed per unit of energy generated. As stated, it is pretty misleading.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
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I don't see many eagles flying in healyje's pic.
Long live Muehlenberg County.
Here's an article about Ivanpah from IEEE, a generally unbiased source:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/green-tech/solar/ivanpah-solar-plant-turns-birds-into-smoke-streamers
Yes, solar concentrators can fry birds. The report lists some bird species but not eagles.
Precisely because the solar power is in a concentrated location, a solution can be found. Will no birds die? Of course not.
No one's mentioned the birds killed by the electric transmission line towers.
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/collisions/powerlines.html
Whatever way the watts get from the generator to your air conditioner there is risk to birds.
As for the non-concentrated panels on a house or factory or governmental building, they can't hurt a flea, let alone an eagle.
There is good news about the eagle. They have actually come back from the edge of extinction.
Statistically: more eagles in the air means more eagles caught up in civilization's contraptions.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
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If centralized solar concentration towers continue to be used- one approach to keep animals out of the airspace is to continually project sound that repels them.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Apr 16, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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If they painted the Wind mill blades red or some color rather than white--would the birds be able to see them? Birds see color very well and I was wondering if the white blades are too dim for them to see?
The poster that titled this a "fail" must be a real piece of work.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 16, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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Mmm. Scorched bird.
Seriously, as was said above, there is no energy generation system that doesn't have some negative effect on the environment. I'm sure mining the materials to build the mirrors had a few issues too.
All we can do is weigh the alternatives of one vs another. Solar in pretty much any form comes out ahead in my book.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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cats- 1.4-3.7 billion birds/year
Zero energy generated.
So in terms of birds killed per kw-hr, that's about
3.7 billion / 0 = this thread is a troll
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ManMountain
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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"Ivanpah Fried Birds"? I read the report and it's feather singeing that incapacitates the birds, making them susceptible to predators (me?).
I was bummed; you can't pull over at Ivanpah and grab a bunch of ready to eat KFC style meat. It seemed so perfect.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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I'm with stevep
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 16, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
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These huge solar plants are just stupid, on many different levels. Small scale installations make so much more sense, except to the utilities.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Apr 16, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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Punks that lite animals on fire for fun get thrown in jail. Corps that
do it as a bi-product of power gen get a pass.
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thebravecowboy
climber
the Midcontinent Rift
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Apr 16, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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Yes, Dave, corporations do get a pass. They are people too, you know.
Personally, I am pretty keen on lots more like Ivanpah. Or, you know, good old self-determination and investment in micro-solar.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 16, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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hey there say, all... oh my... i never knew about this... actually, did not even realize how HUGE these solar plants were...
:(
thanks for teaching me... and sharing... wow, i am too 'out of touch' with these modern times, :(
sad to hear about the large birds of prey, too... :(
never realized so many were hit by cars, either, thanks for
sharing the 'road sign' fritz...
i could of course, understand, that, well...
oh my, but:
the simple thing that i DO KNOW, though, is something that i 'think;?
perhaps happygrrl??? or someone??, and that is this:
these owners of property and buildings that continually destroy the bird-nests, and do it just 'for spite' ... and then, secondary, saying that they are 'messy' :(
and those that nests that are around their buildings, that are just
warehouses, and not even storefronts, apts, or garages, etc, ... :(
or, the folks that cut down all the trees in the yards, that are full of bird's nest, and feeding grounds... :(
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